- From: Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
- Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:50:18 +0000
- To: public-vc-edu@w3.org
- Message-ID: <2699515e-c086-fd73-01d0-85673ae32da4@pjjk.co.uk>
Thanks Kerri, that's very useful. I had forgotten/wasn't sure where we
had landed on some of the modelling issues. I hope we can get these
documented soon.
Phil
On 13/01/2022 18:49, Kerri Lemoie wrote:
> Hi Snorre and all,
>
> VC-EDU would be happy to host a webinar about Credential Engine. We
> have a growing community and it would be great to get them up to speed.
>
> Snorre, in VC-EDU we are still working towards an EDU model report.
> The one you’ve referenced is in a draft state and soon will be
> modified greatly based on use cases and work done last year. As has
> been discussed in the thread, there is substantial work being done at
> the IMS Global groups to align with the VC standard, They’re the first
> standards groups to do this natively, meaning that they are replacing
> their verification methods with the recommendations provided by the VC
> data model. You can see some of what this is headed towards in this
> public proposal for Open Badges 3.0:
>
> https://github.com/IMSGlobal/openbadges-specification/files/6977048/Proposal-Open-Badges-3.0-update-08-11-2021.pdf
> <https://github.com/IMSGlobal/openbadges-specification/files/6977048/Proposal-Open-Badges-3.0-update-08-11-2021.pdf>
>
> The examples in this proposal illustrate discussions in vc-edu prior
> to the proposal’s submission in July 2021. Note that “achievement”
> replaced “hasCredential” to be applicable to a broader set of
> education, training, and other achievement claims. These examples have
> been presented to the VC community and were received well.
>
> In previous Open Badges versions, some have been including a url to
> unique entries in the credential engine registry using the alignment
> property. This may stay the same in 3.0 but it’s unclear yet. In
> VC-EDU, Phil Barker created a use case to explore a more explicit
> link: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed-use-cases/issues/6
> <https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed-use-cases/issues/6>
>
> We’re working towards including this use case and the many others in a
> report that should be finalized by the end of February. We’re also
> working on prioritizing topics to work towards a revised EDU model
> report.
>
> I hope this info helps with what you may need in the short-term while
> we work towards a recommendation. Also, feel free to submit any issues
> here: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed
> <https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed> including topics that interest you,
> questions, and suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kerri
>
> --------
> Kerri Lemoie, PhD
> Director, Digital Credentials Research & Innovation
> badgr.com <https://info.badgr.com/> | concentricsky.com
> <https://concentricsky.com/>
> she/her/hers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jan 13, 2022, at 4:51 AM, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin
>> <snorre@diwala.io <mailto:snorre@diwala.io>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks alot, I have created a personal email to some of the people
>> replying here to just discuss more details.
>> If there was a github/discourse/notion place to have good discussion,
>> these discussions might be able to happen in a non email way.
>> I look forward to next meet and based on what I summarize and
>> hopefully talk to the others about we see what happens next
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:31 PM Jeanne Kitchens
>> <jkitchens@credentialengine.org
>> <mailto:jkitchens@credentialengine.org>> wrote:
>>
>> All, good day. I hope everyone is doing well. I have a
>> recommendation. If there's interest with a group as suggested in
>> this email chain, either we do a session that provides the
>> background needed for how Credential Engine's Credential
>> Transparency Description Language (CTDL) and Credential Registry
>> complement VC specifications and examples of the use cases
>> supported. If there's helpful use case examples we can expand our
>> LER Guide to include them. Snorre, you and anyone else
>> interested in learning more about the world of Credential Engine,
>> our team is more than happy to meet via a webinar.
>>
>> Phil already provided links to the Credential Engine's technical
>> site including our CTDL handbook. It's worth taking the time to
>> look around this website. We have quite a bit of helpful
>> information including the LER Guide
>> https://credreg.net/quickstart/ilwrguide
>> <https://credreg.net/quickstart/ilwrguide>. The CTDL Handbooks
>> and Guides have a table of contents that you can expand on the
>> left side of the related web page to get a good sense of topics
>> covered and to jump around to sections of interest.
>>
>> Thanks so much and I hope to chat soon.
>>
>> Jeanne Kitchens
>> Chief Technology Services Officer
>> Credential Engine
>> 217.494.6558
>> jkitchens@credentialengine.org
>> <mailto:jkitchens@credentialengine.org>
>>
>>
>> www.credentialengine.org <http://www.credentialengine.org/>
>> www.credreg.net <http://www.credreg.net/>
>>
>> /Credential Engine is a non-profit whose mission is to map the
>> credential landscape with clear and consistent information,
>> fueling the creation of resources that empower people to find the
>> pathways that are best for them./
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:51 AM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin
>> <snorre@diwala.io <mailto:snorre@diwala.io>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for sharing this. I see that there are some seriously
>> bloated VCs in the examples here.
>> I would love to have a more hands on discussion on this, so
>> how can we schedule a call on this?
>> A call that benefits the community but does not necessarily
>> have 30 participants :P
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:15 PM Marty Reed
>> <Marty.Reed@randasolutions.com
>> <mailto:Marty.Reed@randasolutions.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Snorre,
>>
>> I love your thinking about the more complex credential!
>> There was discussion in the VC-EDU workgroup earlier last
>> year as some implementations simply cannot utilize a
>> single assertion model for their more complex assertions.
>>
>> I agree with many of the statements being made and I’ll
>> draw your attention to the CLR 1.0 standard at IMS Global
>> here: https://www.imsglobal.org/spec/clr/v1p0/
>> <https://www.imsglobal.org/spec/clr/v1p0/> We have
>> currently convened a workgroup moving CLR 2.0 to be
>> compliant with the VC data standard while supporting
>> multiple assertions in a single credential.
>>
>> There is an open source project at IEEE,
>> https://opensource.ieee.org/ilr/ocp
>> <https://opensource.ieee.org/ilr/ocp> which has already
>> shoehorned the CLR into a VC, while not elegant, it does
>> exist and is leveraging not only CLR, but also
>> OpenBadges, CTDL and the CASE framework with OpenSALT,
>> while publishing a ToIP compliant credential.
>>
>> Hope this is helpful.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Marty
>>
>> Marty Reed | Chief Executive Officer
>> RANDA Solutions | 2555 Meridian Blvd | Suite 300 |
>> Franklin, TN 37067
>> office 615 467 6387 | direct 615 915 5446 | fax 615 613 0517
>>
>> *Confidentiality Disclaimer:* This email and any attached
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>>
>> *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk
>> <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:20 AM
>> *To:* public-vc-edu@w3.org <mailto:public-vc-edu@w3.org>
>> *Cc:* Deb Everhart <deverhart@credentialengine.org
>> <mailto:deverhart@credentialengine.org>>; Stuart Sutton
>> <stuartasutton@gmail.com
>> <mailto:stuartasutton@gmail.com>>; Jeanne Therese
>> Kitchens <jkitchens@credentialengine.org
>> <mailto:jkitchens@credentialengine.org>>
>> *Subject:* Re: The world of credential engine
>>
>> On 12/01/2022 08:39, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin wrote:
>>
>> Thanks alot for this feedback guys! Helps alot!
>>
>> Im well versed in the VC and DID space, its just when
>> it comes to a valid structure of the education
>> credential I have no one to discuss with :D
>>
>> Its worth mentioning that im working on the African
>> continent and we need to provide learning as well as
>> insight on how things can work.
>>
>> I saw I great presentation by your colleague Irene Mutuzo
>> about your work at the T3 Annual Conference last month.
>>
>> One of the problems of being leaders in a field is that
>> you go beyond the limits of what is standard, which I
>> think is where you are. So when you say you want to
>> provide a record of all the modules taken by a student
>> you are in transcript territory, and W3C VC hasn't quite
>> got there yet. You may recall Mark Leuba of IMS
>> presenting at the T3 conference on their Comprehensive
>> Learner Records and their Wellspring project. That may
>> well be the way forward.
>>
>> CTDL has terms for describing Courses (what you call
>> Modules) and Programs (what you call Courses) and the
>> requirements (in terms of Courses, Assessments, work
>> experience and other things) that must be satisfied for
>> someone to complete a Program and earn a Credential. CTDL
>> also has Pathways that show how Courses and other
>> learning experiences, pre-existing credentials and
>> assessments can be strung together to meet credential
>> requirements. Where the credential requirements are
>> flexible there can be many possible pathways that lead to
>> them -- indeed each student may take a different pathway.
>>
>> Modelling the programs and pathways isn't always easy,
>> but the handbook <https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook>
>> should help. Working out the details of how to model a
>> specific case is probably not best done on a public email
>> list -- you may have noticed the there's a need to
>> clarify language which isn't always easy on email, and we
>> would probably try the patience of other people on the
>> list. Perhaps we could organise a call sometime.
>>
>> Since the Credential Engine does not itself deal with any
>> individual's data, CTDL doesn't have many terms for
>> relating and individual to a pathway, course or program
>> they took or credential they earned, but it is designed
>> to work with other vocabularies (such as schema.org
>> <http://schema.org/>, VC, or transcript standards like
>> CLR) that do (or could) provide these terms. Then there
>> is the question of how much of the detail goes in to a VC
>> -- as you say the examples so far are all quite simple
>> atomistic claims. Which is why we need this community group.
>>
>> Hope this helps, Phil.
>>
>> All these works with standardization, Im trying to
>> find examples of how people have used the data
>> models, in complex ways but all I find is this:
>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-models/
>> <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-models/>. Which dont
>> hold that complex models that I potentially want.
>> Because examples explains how certain combos have
>> been used to build up the credentials.
>>
>> F.ex right now, im trying to represent a simple
>> course accreditation. What that holds is some course
>> info which is straight forward, but it also holds
>> certain modules that they have gone through.
>>
>> These modules are not standardized as of now, but is
>> something the issuers have control over and I want to
>> represent as flexible building blocks.
>>
>> But from https://credreg.net/ <https://credreg.net/>,
>> I cannot deduct clearly how this can be built up.
>>
>> I have looked at:
>> https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#CompetencyFramework
>> <https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#CompetencyFramework>,
>> with modules as
>> https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#Competency
>> <https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#Competency>.
>>
>> But it was not clear to me how one build this up into
>> a valid structure.
>>
>> Also, what types of classes:
>> https://credreg.net/ctdl/terms#classes
>> <https://credreg.net/ctdl/terms#classes> that can
>> contain this framework.
>>
>> If anyone has an example using
>> https://json-ld.org/playground/
>> <https://json-ld.org/playground/> that would be great!
>>
>> Will the guidebooks help out increasing my learning
>> around this? https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook
>> <https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 5:59 PM Phillip D. Long
>> <phil@rhzconsulting.com
>> <mailto:phil@rhzconsulting.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Snorre: these are great questions, and you
>> can see from the responses there are really
>> knowledgeable people on this list who can help!
>> I have one comment to offer in reference to your
>> question about what constitutes a verifiable
>> credential and who defines them. There is the
>> technical structure of a VC in JSON-LD format
>> that the data model for VCs describes from the
>> work done by W3C VC community (VC Data Model v1.1
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/>). It
>> describes what you can do, not necessarily what
>> should do, for an educational VC.
>>
>> The data standards organizations like IMSGLOBAL
>> (in the US primarily) or W3C VC-EDU, are working
>> to apply the VC data model to the representation
>> of credentials for the education community.
>> IMSGLOBAL is currently working to represent the
>> single assertion badge, OBv2.x, as a verifiable
>> credential through their OBv3 Workgroup, of which
>> Kerri and I on this thread are members. Similarly
>> they are working to move the Comprehensive
>> Learner Record (CLR) that is intended to replace
>> the structure of a transcript for a degree
>> program, and extend it to enable it to carry
>> information about single assertion
>> accomplishments (aka badges), along with
>> competency framework descriptors, into a
>> structure that follows the W3C VC data model v1.1
>> rules. That effort is underway in the CLRv2
>> workgroup, and it leverages the single assertion
>> OBv3 as an atomic building block for the CLRv2
>> transcript, as well.
>>
>> These standards bodies are providing a template
>> for the more traditional expressions of
>> credentials they issue, e.g., a degree, a
>> certificate, or license, in interoperable
>> representations that can be cryptographically
>> signed to make them tamper evident. But as you
>> noted, if you follow the general guidelines for
>> the VC data model, you can create a VC of your
>> own design, if there isn’t already a suitable
>> existing domain-based standard to use.
>>
>> The VC-EDU task force of the W3C VC CCG is where
>> this work is underway for education related
>> credentials. IMSGLOBAL wants to be the standard
>> for educational credentials and has filled that
>> niche in the US prior to the emerge of VCs. The
>> ability to contribute to their standards
>> development or even see the work in progress they
>> do in their development requires that you pay to
>> become a member of their organization. VC-EDU, on
>> the other hand, is open to anyone with an
>> interest and their work is freely accessible and
>> available during the development process, as well
>> as thereafter. As Kerri Lemoie is the chair of
>> that task force, and doing a great job the chief
>> technical “cat herder”, I’m sure she along with
>> all of us sharing thes interests would welcome
>> you’re joining the effort underway there
>> (https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/
>> <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/>)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> *Phillip Long, Ph.D*.,
>>
>> T3 Innovation Network, LER Network Facilitator
>>
>> e:<mailto:phil@rhzconsulting.com>phil@rhzconsulting.com
>> <mailto:phil@rhzconsulting.com>,
>>
>> SNS: Twitter/Telegram @RadHertz
>>
>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd>
>>
>> —
>>
>> *Senior Scholar, Georgetown University*
>>
>> Center for New Designs in Learning & Scholarship
>> (CNDLS)
>>
>> e: pl673@georgetown.edu <mailto:pl673@georgetown.edu>
>>
>> —
>>
>> *Open Software Fellow*
>>
>> Concentric Sky
>>
>> e: plong@concentricsky.com
>> <mailto:plong@concentricsky.com>
>>
>> https://concentricsky.com/
>> <https://www.concentricsky.com/>
>>
>> —
>>
>> *RHz Consulting, LLC.
>> *Inquire-Listen-Design-Prototype-Analyze-Repeat
>> e:phil@rhzconsulting.com
>> <mailto:phil@rhzconsulting.com>
>> LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2022, at 7:38 AM, Snorre Lothar
>> von Gohren Edwin <snorre@diwala.io
>> <mailto:snorre@diwala.io>> wrote:
>>
>> This is fantastic feedback! Thanks.
>>
>> What is the best fora for similar questions
>> to be discussed?
>>
>> Does it exist github foras or any discussion
>> foras for VC edu space? Or just credential
>> engine?
>>
>> I have some follow up questions on this now,
>> if that is alright!
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:07 PM Phil Barker
>> <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk
>> <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, it should. One factor to be aware of
>> is that there is a difference in what is
>> covered by Credential in Credential
>> Engine compared to Verifiable
>> Credentials. Credential Engine describes
>> the credentials (and related things like
>> learning opportunities, skills...)
>> offered by educational institutions,
>> training organizations etc, whereas
>> Verifiable Credentials are about the
>> credentials that an individual has. They
>> are closely related, and totally
>> complementary, like different sides of
>> the same coin. You can think of VCs as
>> equivalent to the piece of paper that
>> says someone has a degree, lots of people
>> can have such a piece of paper for the
>> same degree; Credential Engine will
>> provide a description of that degree, of
>> which there is only one. If you know the
>> Open Badge standard, Credential Engine
>> aligns with the Badge Class, not the
>> assertion that someone has been awarded
>> to badge.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing, yeah that was why I was
>> asking that they might go together as hand in
>> a glow. But thanks for detailing.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have an example micro credential
>> here in JSON playground:
>> https://tinyurl.com/3czurwnm
>> <https://tinyurl.com/3czurwnm>
>>
>> Is this technically valid or who
>> decides that?
>>
>> No, that's not valid. You have used
>> ceterms:MicroCredential as a property
>> when it is defined as a class (so it must
>> be used as a value for type).
>>
>> You need something more like:
>>
>> "credentialSubject": {
>> "id": "did:web:matthew's_did",
>> schema:hasCredential: {
>> "type": "ceterms:MicroCredential";
>> "ceterms:name": "Test micro",
>> "ceterms:description": "This will
>> describe the credential"
>> }
>>
>> }
>>
>> (NB: the merits of using of
>> schema:hasCredential in a VC is the sort
>> of thing we need to discuss in this group)
>>
>> Yeah I have seen that and was hoping it might
>> be a fluke that it was used. To me it does
>> not make much sence that a VC contains
>> another container for a credential they have.
>>
>> The VC itself is a credential of a credential
>> I have, I believe.
>>
>> So from my JSON-LD understanding, i can type
>> something inside the credentialSubject, and
>> it will understand what is the type, plus the
>> parent type, credentialSubject fields.
>>
>> But since alot of these other data points
>> have ID, we have a conflict, and need to wrap
>> them into a container.
>>
>> But this example dont have a conflict and
>> could technically be type defined at the root
>> level of this credentialSubject, just as this
>> example: https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>> <https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp>
>>
>> Or what is the history of hasCredential?
>>
>> Why do I have to use ceterms:name,
>> infront of name when it is wrapped in
>> a micro credential type?
>>
>> Is that becaus the JSON-ld of
>> https://credreg.net/
>> <https://credreg.net/>, might not
>> follow same format when doing
>> schema.org <http://schema.org/>?
>>
>> I am not quite sure I understand your
>> question properly. Do you mean why do you
>> need the "ceterms:" prefix? That
>> identifies the namespace, so that we know
>> you mean the CTDL version of name not the
>> schema.org <http://schema.org/> or FOAF
>> version of name (not that there any real
>> difference in this case). It's a common
>> requirement when JSON-LD builds on more
>> than one vocabulary, see section 4.1.5 of
>> the JSON-LD spec,
>> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#compact-iris
>> <https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#compact-iris>
>> Often this is hidden in the JSON-LD
>> context file.
>>
>> Yeah my questions might come from my lack of
>> JSON-LD knowledge. So this is more JSON-LD
>> question
>>
>> Again this example:
>> https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>> <https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp>
>>
>> I thought by typing the credentialSubject, it
>> would be possible to use the "childrens"
>> types directly, like email and identifier.
>>
>> But that might be a flat hiearchy, and since
>> email and identifier is directly available on
>> schema.org <http://schema.org/>, it has no
>> relation to its type?
>>
>> And that everything comes from context, and
>> if I want to have flatter attributes, I would
>> have to explicitly define them like this
>> example:
>> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#example-using-vocabularies
>> <https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#example-using-vocabularies>?
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>
>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>
>> +47 411 611 94
>> www.diwala.io <http://www.diwala.io/>
>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>
>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>
>> +47 411 611 94
>> www.diwala.io <http://www.diwala.io/>
>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>.
>> http://people.pjjk.net/phil <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>
>> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk/>: a cooperative
>> consultancy for innovation in education technology.
>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to
>> enhance learning; information systems for education.
>>
>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership,
>> registered in England number OC399090
>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private
>> limited company, number SC569282.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin
>> *
>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>> +47 411 611 94
>> www.diwala.io <http://www.diwala.io/>
>> <http://www.diwala.io/>/
>> /
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin
>> *
>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>> +47 411 611 94
>> www.diwala.io <http://www.diwala.io/>
>> <http://www.diwala.io/>/
>> /
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>
--
Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy for
innovation in education technology.
PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
information systems for education.
CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
England number OC399090
PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
number SC569282.
Received on Friday, 14 January 2022 09:50:39 UTC