Re: The world of credential engine

This is great, thank you! Thanks for the update!
ᐧ

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:49 PM Kerri Lemoie <klemoie@concentricsky.com>
wrote:

> Hi Snorre and all,
>
> VC-EDU would be happy to host a webinar about Credential Engine. We have a
> growing community and it would be great to get them up to speed.
>
> Snorre, in VC-EDU we are still working towards an EDU model report. The
> one you’ve referenced is in a draft state and soon will be modified greatly
> based on use cases and work done last year. As has been discussed in the
> thread, there is substantial work being done at the IMS Global groups to
> align with the VC standard, They’re the first standards groups to do this
> natively, meaning that they are replacing their verification methods with
> the recommendations provided by the VC data model. You can see some of what
> this is headed towards in this public proposal for Open Badges 3.0:
>
>
> https://github.com/IMSGlobal/openbadges-specification/files/6977048/Proposal-Open-Badges-3.0-update-08-11-2021.pdf
>
> The examples in this proposal illustrate discussions in vc-edu prior to
> the proposal’s submission in July 2021. Note that “achievement” replaced
> “hasCredential” to be applicable to a broader set of education, training,
> and other achievement claims. These examples have been presented to the VC
> community and were received well.
>
> In previous Open Badges versions, some have been including a url to unique
> entries in the credential engine registry using the alignment property.
> This may stay the same in 3.0 but it’s unclear yet. In VC-EDU, Phil Barker
> created a use case to explore a more explicit link:
> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed-use-cases/issues/6
>
> We’re working towards including this use case and the many others in a
> report that should be finalized by the end of February. We’re also working
> on prioritizing topics to work towards a revised EDU model report.
>
> I hope this info helps with what you may need in the short-term while we
> work towards a recommendation. Also, feel free to submit any issues here:
> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed including topics that interest you,
> questions, and suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kerri
>
> --------
> Kerri Lemoie, PhD
> Director, Digital Credentials Research & Innovation
> badgr.com <https://info.badgr.com/> | concentricsky.com
> she/her/hers
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2022, at 4:51 AM, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <
> snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
>
> Thanks alot, I have created a personal email to some of the people
> replying here to just discuss more details.
> If there was a github/discourse/notion place to have good discussion,
> these discussions might be able to happen in a non email way.
> I look forward to next meet and based on what I summarize and hopefully
> talk to the others about we see what happens next
> ᐧ
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:31 PM Jeanne Kitchens <
> jkitchens@credentialengine.org> wrote:
>
>> All, good day. I hope everyone is doing well.  I have a recommendation.
>> If there's interest with a group as suggested in this email chain, either
>> we do a  session that provides the background needed for how Credential
>> Engine's Credential Transparency Description Language (CTDL) and Credential
>> Registry complement VC specifications and examples of the use cases
>> supported. If there's helpful use case examples we can expand our LER Guide
>> to include them.   Snorre, you and anyone else interested in learning more
>> about the world of Credential Engine, our team is more than happy to meet
>> via a webinar.
>>
>> Phil already provided links to the Credential Engine's technical site
>> including our CTDL handbook.  It's worth taking the time to look around
>> this website.  We have quite a bit of helpful information including the LER
>> Guide https://credreg.net/quickstart/ilwrguide.  The CTDL Handbooks and
>> Guides have a table of contents that you can expand on the left side of the
>> related web page to get a good sense of topics covered and to jump around
>> to sections of interest.
>>
>> Thanks so much and I hope to chat soon.
>>
>> Jeanne Kitchens
>> Chief Technology Services Officer
>> Credential Engine
>> 217.494.6558
>> jkitchens@credentialengine.org
>>
>>
>> www.credentialengine.org
>> www.credreg.net
>>
>> *Credential Engine is a non-profit whose mission is to map the credential
>> landscape with clear and consistent information, fueling the creation of
>> resources that empower people to find the pathways that are best for them.*
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:51 AM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <
>> snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for sharing this. I see that there are some seriously bloated VCs
>>> in the examples here.
>>> I would love to have a more hands on discussion on this, so how can we
>>> schedule a call on this?
>>> A call that benefits the community but does not necessarily have 30
>>> participants :P
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:15 PM Marty Reed <
>>> Marty.Reed@randasolutions.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Snorre,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I love your thinking about the more complex credential!  There was
>>>> discussion in the VC-EDU workgroup earlier last year as some
>>>> implementations simply cannot utilize a single assertion model for their
>>>> more complex assertions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with many of the statements being made and I’ll draw your
>>>> attention to the CLR 1.0 standard at IMS Global here:
>>>> https://www.imsglobal.org/spec/clr/v1p0/ We have currently convened a
>>>> workgroup moving CLR 2.0 to be compliant with the VC data standard while
>>>> supporting multiple assertions in a single credential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is an open source project at IEEE,
>>>> https://opensource.ieee.org/ilr/ocp which has already shoehorned the
>>>> CLR into a VC, while not elegant, it does exist and is leveraging not only
>>>> CLR, but also OpenBadges, CTDL and the CASE framework with OpenSALT, while
>>>> publishing a ToIP compliant credential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hope this is helpful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Marty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marty Reed | Chief Executive Officer
>>>> RANDA Solutions | 2555 Meridian Blvd | Suite 300 | Franklin, TN 37067
>>>> office 615 467 6387 | direct 615 915 5446 | fax 615 613 0517
>>>>
>>>> *Confidentiality Disclaimer:* This email and any attached files are
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>>>>
>>>> *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:20 AM
>>>> *To:* public-vc-edu@w3.org
>>>> *Cc:* Deb Everhart <deverhart@credentialengine.org>; Stuart Sutton <
>>>> stuartasutton@gmail.com>; Jeanne Therese Kitchens <
>>>> jkitchens@credentialengine.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: The world of credential engine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/01/2022 08:39, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks alot for this feedback guys! Helps alot!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Im well versed in the VC and DID space, its just when it comes to a
>>>> valid structure of the education credential I have no one to discuss with :D
>>>>
>>>> Its worth mentioning that im working on the African continent and we
>>>> need to provide learning as well as insight on how things can work.
>>>>
>>>> I saw I great presentation by your colleague Irene Mutuzo about your
>>>> work at the T3 Annual Conference last month.
>>>>
>>>> One of the problems of being leaders in a field is that you go beyond
>>>> the limits of what is standard, which I think is where you are. So when you
>>>> say you want to provide a record of all the modules taken by a student you
>>>> are in transcript territory, and W3C VC hasn't quite got there yet. You may
>>>> recall Mark Leuba of IMS presenting at the T3 conference on their
>>>> Comprehensive Learner Records and their Wellspring project. That may well
>>>> be the way forward.
>>>>
>>>> CTDL has terms for describing Courses (what you call Modules) and
>>>> Programs (what you call Courses) and the requirements (in terms of Courses,
>>>> Assessments, work experience and other things) that must be satisfied for
>>>> someone to complete a Program and earn a Credential. CTDL also has Pathways
>>>> that show how Courses and other learning experiences, pre-existing
>>>> credentials and assessments can be strung together to meet credential
>>>> requirements. Where the credential requirements are flexible there can be
>>>> many possible pathways that lead to them -- indeed each student may take a
>>>> different pathway.
>>>>
>>>> Modelling the programs and pathways isn't always easy, but the handbook
>>>> <https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook> should help. Working out the
>>>> details of how to model a specific case is probably not best done on a
>>>> public email list -- you may have noticed the there's a need to clarify
>>>> language which isn't always easy on email, and we would probably try the
>>>> patience of other people on the list. Perhaps we could organise a call
>>>> sometime.
>>>>
>>>> Since the Credential Engine does not itself deal with any individual's
>>>> data, CTDL doesn't have many terms for relating and individual to a
>>>> pathway, course or program they took or credential they earned, but it is
>>>> designed to work with other vocabularies (such as schema.org, VC, or
>>>> transcript standards like CLR) that do (or could) provide these terms. Then
>>>> there is the question of how much of the detail goes in to a VC -- as you
>>>> say the examples so far are all quite simple atomistic claims. Which is why
>>>> we need this community group.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps, Phil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All these works with standardization, Im trying to find examples of how
>>>> people have used the data models, in complex ways but all I find is this:
>>>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-models/. Which dont hold that complex
>>>> models that I potentially want. Because examples explains how certain
>>>> combos have been used to build up the credentials.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> F.ex right now, im trying to represent a simple course accreditation.
>>>> What that holds is some course info which is straight forward, but it also
>>>> holds certain modules that they have gone through.
>>>>
>>>> These modules are not standardized as of now, but is something the
>>>> issuers have control over and I want to represent as flexible building
>>>> blocks.
>>>>
>>>> But from https://credreg.net/, I cannot deduct clearly how this can be
>>>> built up.
>>>>
>>>> I have looked at:
>>>> https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#CompetencyFramework, with modules
>>>> as https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#Competency.
>>>>
>>>> But it was not clear to me how one build this up into a valid structure.
>>>>
>>>> Also, what types of classes: https://credreg.net/ctdl/terms#classes
>>>> that can contain this framework.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone has an example using https://json-ld.org/playground/ that
>>>> would be great!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Will the guidebooks help out increasing my learning around this?
>>>> https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 5:59 PM Phillip D. Long <phil@rhzconsulting.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Snorre: these are great questions, and you can see from the
>>>> responses there are really knowledgeable people on this list who can help!
>>>> I have one comment to offer in reference to your question about what
>>>> constitutes a verifiable credential and who defines them. There is the
>>>> technical structure of a VC in JSON-LD format that the data model for VCs
>>>> describes from the work done by W3C VC community (VC Data Model v1.1
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/>). It describes what you can do,
>>>> not necessarily what should do, for an educational VC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The data standards organizations like IMSGLOBAL (in the US primarily)
>>>> or W3C VC-EDU, are working to apply the VC data model to the representation
>>>> of credentials for the education community. IMSGLOBAL is currently working
>>>> to represent the single assertion badge, OBv2.x, as a verifiable credential
>>>> through their OBv3 Workgroup, of which Kerri and I on this thread are
>>>> members.  Similarly they are working to move the Comprehensive Learner
>>>> Record (CLR) that is intended to replace the structure of a transcript for
>>>> a degree program, and extend it to enable it to carry information about
>>>> single assertion accomplishments (aka badges), along with competency
>>>> framework descriptors, into a structure that follows the W3C VC data model
>>>> v1.1 rules. That effort is underway in the CLRv2 workgroup, and it
>>>> leverages the single assertion OBv3 as an atomic building block for the
>>>> CLRv2 transcript, as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These standards bodies are providing a template for the more
>>>> traditional expressions of credentials they issue, e.g.,  a degree, a
>>>> certificate, or license, in interoperable representations that can be
>>>> cryptographically signed to make them tamper evident. But as you noted, if
>>>> you follow the general guidelines for the VC data model, you can create a
>>>> VC of your own design, if there isn’t already a suitable existing
>>>> domain-based standard to use.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The VC-EDU task force of the W3C VC CCG is where this work is underway
>>>> for education related credentials. IMSGLOBAL wants to be the standard for
>>>> educational credentials and has filled that niche in the US prior to the
>>>> emerge of VCs.  The ability to contribute to their standards development or
>>>> even see the work in progress they do in their development requires that
>>>> you pay to become a member of their organization. VC-EDU, on the other
>>>> hand,  is open to anyone with an interest and their work is freely
>>>> accessible and available during the development process, as well as
>>>> thereafter. As Kerri Lemoie is the chair of that task force, and doing a
>>>> great job the chief technical “cat herder”, I’m sure she along with all of
>>>> us sharing thes interests would welcome you’re joining the effort underway
>>>> there (https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>   Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Phillip Long, Ph.D*.,
>>>>
>>>> T3 Innovation Network, LER Network Facilitator
>>>>
>>>> e:  <phil@rhzconsulting.com>phil@rhzconsulting.com,
>>>>
>>>> SNS: Twitter/Telegram @RadHertz
>>>>
>>>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
>>>>
>>>> —
>>>>
>>>> *Senior Scholar, Georgetown University*
>>>>
>>>> Center for New Designs in Learning & Scholarship (CNDLS)
>>>>
>>>> e: pl673@georgetown.edu
>>>>
>>>> —
>>>>
>>>> *Open Software Fellow*
>>>>
>>>> Concentric Sky
>>>>
>>>> e: plong@concentricsky.com
>>>>
>>>> https://concentricsky.com/  <https://www.concentricsky.com/>
>>>>
>>>> —
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *RHz Consulting, LLC. *Inquire-Listen-Design-Prototype-Analyze-Repeat
>>>> e:phil@rhzconsulting.com
>>>> LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 11, 2022, at 7:38 AM, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <
>>>> snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is fantastic feedback! Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> What is the best fora for similar questions to be discussed?
>>>>
>>>> Does it exist github foras or any discussion foras for VC edu space? Or
>>>> just credential engine?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have some follow up questions on this now, if that is alright!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:07 PM Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it should. One factor to be aware of is that there is a difference
>>>> in what is covered by Credential in Credential Engine compared to
>>>> Verifiable Credentials. Credential Engine describes the credentials (and
>>>> related things like learning opportunities, skills...) offered by
>>>> educational institutions, training organizations etc, whereas Verifiable
>>>> Credentials are about the credentials that an individual has. They are
>>>> closely related, and totally complementary, like different sides of the
>>>> same coin. You can think of VCs as equivalent to the piece of paper that
>>>> says someone has a degree, lots of people can have such a piece of paper
>>>> for the same degree; Credential Engine will provide a description of that
>>>> degree, of which there is only one. If you know the Open Badge standard,
>>>> Credential Engine aligns with the Badge Class, not the assertion that
>>>> someone has been awarded to badge.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for sharing, yeah that was why I was asking that they might go
>>>> together as hand in a glow. But thanks for detailing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have an example micro credential here in JSON playground:
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/3czurwnm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is this technically valid or who decides that?
>>>>
>>>> No, that's not valid. You have used ceterms:MicroCredential as a
>>>> property when it is defined as a class (so it must be used as a value for
>>>> type).
>>>>
>>>> You need something more like:
>>>>
>>>>   "credentialSubject": {
>>>>     "id": "did:web:matthew's_did",
>>>>     schema:hasCredential: {
>>>>       "type": "ceterms:MicroCredential";
>>>>       "ceterms:name": "Test micro",
>>>>       "ceterms:description": "This will describe the credential"
>>>>     }
>>>>
>>>>   }
>>>>
>>>> (NB: the merits of using of schema:hasCredential in a VC is the sort of
>>>> thing we need to discuss in this group)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah I have seen that and was hoping it might be a fluke that it was
>>>> used. To me it does not make much sence that a VC contains another
>>>> container for a credential they have.
>>>>
>>>> The VC itself is a credential of a credential I have, I believe.
>>>>
>>>> So from my JSON-LD understanding, i can type something inside the
>>>> credentialSubject, and it will understand what is the type, plus the parent
>>>> type, credentialSubject fields.
>>>>
>>>> But since alot of these other data points have ID, we have a conflict,
>>>> and need to wrap them into a container.
>>>>
>>>> But this example dont have a conflict and could technically be type
>>>> defined at the root level of this credentialSubject, just as this example:
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or what is the history of hasCredential?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do I have to use ceterms:name, infront of name when it is wrapped
>>>> in a micro credential type?
>>>>
>>>> Is that becaus the JSON-ld of https://credreg.net/, might not follow
>>>> same format when doing schema.org?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not quite sure I understand your question properly. Do you mean
>>>> why do you need the "ceterms:" prefix? That identifies the namespace, so
>>>> that we know you mean the CTDL version of name not the schema.org or
>>>> FOAF version of name (not that there any real difference in this case).
>>>> It's a common requirement when JSON-LD builds on more than one vocabulary,
>>>> see section 4.1.5 of the JSON-LD spec,
>>>> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#compact-iris Often this is
>>>> hidden in the JSON-LD context file.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah my questions might come from my lack of JSON-LD knowledge. So this
>>>> is more JSON-LD question
>>>>
>>>> Again this example: https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>>>>
>>>> I thought by typing the credentialSubject, it would be possible to use
>>>> the "childrens" types directly, like email and identifier.
>>>>
>>>> But that might be a flat hiearchy, and since email and identifier is
>>>> directly available on schema.org, it has no relation to its type?
>>>>
>>>> And that everything comes from context, and if I want to have flatter
>>>> attributes, I would have to explicitly define them like this example:
>>>> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#example-using-vocabularies?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>>>
>>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>>>
>>>> +47 411 611 94
>>>> www.diwala.io
>>>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>>>
>>>> *Stay on top of Diwala news on social media! Facebook
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>>>
>>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>>>
>>>> +47 411 611 94
>>>> www.diwala.io
>>>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>>>
>>>> *Stay on top of Diwala news on social media! Facebook
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/diwalaorg> / LinkedIn
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>>>> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk/>: a cooperative consultancy for
>>>> innovation in education technology.
>>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance
>>>> learning; information systems for education.
>>>>
>>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
>>>> England number OC399090
>>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
>>>> number SC569282.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>> +47 411 611 94
>>> www.diwala.io
>>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>> *Stay on top of Diwala news on social media! **Facebook
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>>> <https://twitter.com/Diwala>*
>>>
>>
>
> --
>
> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
> +47 411 611 94
> www.diwala.io
> <http://www.diwala.io/>
> *Stay on top of Diwala news on social media! **Facebook
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> <https://twitter.com/Diwala>*
>
>
>

-- 

*Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
+47 411 611 94
www.diwala.io
<http://www.diwala.io/>
*Stay on top of Diwala news on social media! **Facebook
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