Re: The world of credential engine

Thanks alot, I have created a personal email to some of the people replying
here to just discuss more details.
If there was a github/discourse/notion place to have good discussion, these
discussions might be able to happen in a non email way.
I look forward to next meet and based on what I summarize and hopefully
talk to the others about we see what happens next
ᐧ

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 6:31 PM Jeanne Kitchens <
jkitchens@credentialengine.org> wrote:

> All, good day. I hope everyone is doing well.  I have a recommendation.
> If there's interest with a group as suggested in this email chain, either
> we do a  session that provides the background needed for how Credential
> Engine's Credential Transparency Description Language (CTDL) and Credential
> Registry complement VC specifications and examples of the use cases
> supported. If there's helpful use case examples we can expand our LER Guide
> to include them.   Snorre, you and anyone else interested in learning more
> about the world of Credential Engine, our team is more than happy to meet
> via a webinar.
>
> Phil already provided links to the Credential Engine's technical site
> including our CTDL handbook.  It's worth taking the time to look around
> this website.  We have quite a bit of helpful information including the LER
> Guide https://credreg.net/quickstart/ilwrguide.  The CTDL Handbooks and
> Guides have a table of contents that you can expand on the left side of the
> related web page to get a good sense of topics covered and to jump around
> to sections of interest.
>
> Thanks so much and I hope to chat soon.
>
> Jeanne Kitchens
> Chief Technology Services Officer
> Credential Engine
> 217.494.6558
> jkitchens@credentialengine.org
>
>
> www.credentialengine.org
> www.credreg.net
>
> *Credential Engine is a non-profit whose mission is to map the credential
> landscape with clear and consistent information, fueling the creation of
> resources that empower people to find the pathways that are best for them.*
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:51 AM Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <
> snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing this. I see that there are some seriously bloated VCs
>> in the examples here.
>> I would love to have a more hands on discussion on this, so how can we
>> schedule a call on this?
>> A call that benefits the community but does not necessarily have 30
>> participants :P
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:15 PM Marty Reed <Marty.Reed@randasolutions.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Snorre,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I love your thinking about the more complex credential!  There was
>>> discussion in the VC-EDU workgroup earlier last year as some
>>> implementations simply cannot utilize a single assertion model for their
>>> more complex assertions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with many of the statements being made and I’ll draw your
>>> attention to the CLR 1.0 standard at IMS Global here:
>>> https://www.imsglobal.org/spec/clr/v1p0/ We have currently convened a
>>> workgroup moving CLR 2.0 to be compliant with the VC data standard while
>>> supporting multiple assertions in a single credential.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is an open source project at IEEE,
>>> https://opensource.ieee.org/ilr/ocp which has already shoehorned the
>>> CLR into a VC, while not elegant, it does exist and is leveraging not only
>>> CLR, but also OpenBadges, CTDL and the CASE framework with OpenSALT, while
>>> publishing a ToIP compliant credential.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hope this is helpful.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Marty
>>>
>>>
>>> Marty Reed | Chief Executive Officer
>>> RANDA Solutions | 2555 Meridian Blvd | Suite 300 | Franklin, TN 37067
>>> office 615 467 6387 | direct 615 915 5446 | fax 615 613 0517
>>>
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>>> *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:20 AM
>>> *To:* public-vc-edu@w3.org
>>> *Cc:* Deb Everhart <deverhart@credentialengine.org>; Stuart Sutton <
>>> stuartasutton@gmail.com>; Jeanne Therese Kitchens <
>>> jkitchens@credentialengine.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: The world of credential engine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/01/2022 08:39, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks alot for this feedback guys! Helps alot!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Im well versed in the VC and DID space, its just when it comes to a
>>> valid structure of the education credential I have no one to discuss with :D
>>>
>>> Its worth mentioning that im working on the African continent and we
>>> need to provide learning as well as insight on how things can work.
>>>
>>> I saw I great presentation by your colleague Irene Mutuzo about your
>>> work at the T3 Annual Conference last month.
>>>
>>> One of the problems of being leaders in a field is that you go beyond
>>> the limits of what is standard, which I think is where you are. So when you
>>> say you want to provide a record of all the modules taken by a student you
>>> are in transcript territory, and W3C VC hasn't quite got there yet. You may
>>> recall Mark Leuba of IMS presenting at the T3 conference on their
>>> Comprehensive Learner Records and their Wellspring project. That may well
>>> be the way forward.
>>>
>>> CTDL has terms for describing Courses (what you call Modules) and
>>> Programs (what you call Courses) and the requirements (in terms of Courses,
>>> Assessments, work experience and other things) that must be satisfied for
>>> someone to complete a Program and earn a Credential. CTDL also has Pathways
>>> that show how Courses and other learning experiences, pre-existing
>>> credentials and assessments can be strung together to meet credential
>>> requirements. Where the credential requirements are flexible there can be
>>> many possible pathways that lead to them -- indeed each student may take a
>>> different pathway.
>>>
>>> Modelling the programs and pathways isn't always easy, but the handbook
>>> <https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook> should help. Working out the
>>> details of how to model a specific case is probably not best done on a
>>> public email list -- you may have noticed the there's a need to clarify
>>> language which isn't always easy on email, and we would probably try the
>>> patience of other people on the list. Perhaps we could organise a call
>>> sometime.
>>>
>>> Since the Credential Engine does not itself deal with any individual's
>>> data, CTDL doesn't have many terms for relating and individual to a
>>> pathway, course or program they took or credential they earned, but it is
>>> designed to work with other vocabularies (such as schema.org, VC, or
>>> transcript standards like CLR) that do (or could) provide these terms. Then
>>> there is the question of how much of the detail goes in to a VC -- as you
>>> say the examples so far are all quite simple atomistic claims. Which is why
>>> we need this community group.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps, Phil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All these works with standardization, Im trying to find examples of how
>>> people have used the data models, in complex ways but all I find is this:
>>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-models/. Which dont hold that complex
>>> models that I potentially want. Because examples explains how certain
>>> combos have been used to build up the credentials.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> F.ex right now, im trying to represent a simple course accreditation.
>>> What that holds is some course info which is straight forward, but it also
>>> holds certain modules that they have gone through.
>>>
>>> These modules are not standardized as of now, but is something the
>>> issuers have control over and I want to represent as flexible building
>>> blocks.
>>>
>>> But from https://credreg.net/, I cannot deduct clearly how this can be
>>> built up.
>>>
>>> I have looked at: https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#CompetencyFramework,
>>> with modules as https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#Competency.
>>>
>>> But it was not clear to me how one build this up into a valid structure.
>>>
>>> Also, what types of classes: https://credreg.net/ctdl/terms#classes
>>> that can contain this framework.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If anyone has an example using https://json-ld.org/playground/ that
>>> would be great!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Will the guidebooks help out increasing my learning around this?
>>> https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 5:59 PM Phillip D. Long <phil@rhzconsulting.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Snorre: these are great questions, and you can see from the
>>> responses there are really knowledgeable people on this list who can help!
>>> I have one comment to offer in reference to your question about what
>>> constitutes a verifiable credential and who defines them. There is the
>>> technical structure of a VC in JSON-LD format that the data model for VCs
>>> describes from the work done by W3C VC community (VC Data Model v1.1
>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/>). It describes what you can do,
>>> not necessarily what should do, for an educational VC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The data standards organizations like IMSGLOBAL (in the US primarily) or
>>> W3C VC-EDU, are working to apply the VC data model to the representation of
>>> credentials for the education community. IMSGLOBAL is currently working to
>>> represent the single assertion badge, OBv2.x, as a verifiable credential
>>> through their OBv3 Workgroup, of which Kerri and I on this thread are
>>> members.  Similarly they are working to move the Comprehensive Learner
>>> Record (CLR) that is intended to replace the structure of a transcript for
>>> a degree program, and extend it to enable it to carry information about
>>> single assertion accomplishments (aka badges), along with competency
>>> framework descriptors, into a structure that follows the W3C VC data model
>>> v1.1 rules. That effort is underway in the CLRv2 workgroup, and it
>>> leverages the single assertion OBv3 as an atomic building block for the
>>> CLRv2 transcript, as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These standards bodies are providing a template for the more traditional
>>> expressions of credentials they issue, e.g.,  a degree, a certificate, or
>>> license, in interoperable representations that can be cryptographically
>>> signed to make them tamper evident. But as you noted, if you follow the
>>> general guidelines for the VC data model, you can create a VC of your own
>>> design, if there isn’t already a suitable existing domain-based standard to
>>> use.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The VC-EDU task force of the W3C VC CCG is where this work is underway
>>> for education related credentials. IMSGLOBAL wants to be the standard for
>>> educational credentials and has filled that niche in the US prior to the
>>> emerge of VCs.  The ability to contribute to their standards development or
>>> even see the work in progress they do in their development requires that
>>> you pay to become a member of their organization. VC-EDU, on the other
>>> hand,  is open to anyone with an interest and their work is freely
>>> accessible and available during the development process, as well as
>>> thereafter. As Kerri Lemoie is the chair of that task force, and doing a
>>> great job the chief technical “cat herder”, I’m sure she along with all of
>>> us sharing thes interests would welcome you’re joining the effort underway
>>> there (https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>   Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Phillip Long, Ph.D*.,
>>>
>>> T3 Innovation Network, LER Network Facilitator
>>>
>>> e:  <phil@rhzconsulting.com>phil@rhzconsulting.com,
>>>
>>> SNS: Twitter/Telegram @RadHertz
>>>
>>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
>>>
>>> —
>>>
>>> *Senior Scholar, Georgetown University*
>>>
>>> Center for New Designs in Learning & Scholarship (CNDLS)
>>>
>>> e: pl673@georgetown.edu
>>>
>>> —
>>>
>>> *Open Software Fellow*
>>>
>>> Concentric Sky
>>>
>>> e: plong@concentricsky.com
>>>
>>> https://concentricsky.com/  <https://www.concentricsky.com/>
>>>
>>> —
>>>
>>>
>>> *RHz Consulting, LLC. *Inquire-Listen-Design-Prototype-Analyze-Repeat
>>> e:phil@rhzconsulting.com
>>> LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2022, at 7:38 AM, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <
>>> snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is fantastic feedback! Thanks.
>>>
>>> What is the best fora for similar questions to be discussed?
>>>
>>> Does it exist github foras or any discussion foras for VC edu space? Or
>>> just credential engine?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have some follow up questions on this now, if that is alright!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:07 PM Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, it should. One factor to be aware of is that there is a difference
>>> in what is covered by Credential in Credential Engine compared to
>>> Verifiable Credentials. Credential Engine describes the credentials (and
>>> related things like learning opportunities, skills...) offered by
>>> educational institutions, training organizations etc, whereas Verifiable
>>> Credentials are about the credentials that an individual has. They are
>>> closely related, and totally complementary, like different sides of the
>>> same coin. You can think of VCs as equivalent to the piece of paper that
>>> says someone has a degree, lots of people can have such a piece of paper
>>> for the same degree; Credential Engine will provide a description of that
>>> degree, of which there is only one. If you know the Open Badge standard,
>>> Credential Engine aligns with the Badge Class, not the assertion that
>>> someone has been awarded to badge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing, yeah that was why I was asking that they might go
>>> together as hand in a glow. But thanks for detailing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have an example micro credential here in JSON playground:
>>> https://tinyurl.com/3czurwnm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this technically valid or who decides that?
>>>
>>> No, that's not valid. You have used ceterms:MicroCredential as a
>>> property when it is defined as a class (so it must be used as a value for
>>> type).
>>>
>>> You need something more like:
>>>
>>>   "credentialSubject": {
>>>     "id": "did:web:matthew's_did",
>>>     schema:hasCredential: {
>>>       "type": "ceterms:MicroCredential";
>>>       "ceterms:name": "Test micro",
>>>       "ceterms:description": "This will describe the credential"
>>>     }
>>>
>>>   }
>>>
>>> (NB: the merits of using of schema:hasCredential in a VC is the sort of
>>> thing we need to discuss in this group)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah I have seen that and was hoping it might be a fluke that it was
>>> used. To me it does not make much sence that a VC contains another
>>> container for a credential they have.
>>>
>>> The VC itself is a credential of a credential I have, I believe.
>>>
>>> So from my JSON-LD understanding, i can type something inside the
>>> credentialSubject, and it will understand what is the type, plus the parent
>>> type, credentialSubject fields.
>>>
>>> But since alot of these other data points have ID, we have a conflict,
>>> and need to wrap them into a container.
>>>
>>> But this example dont have a conflict and could technically be type
>>> defined at the root level of this credentialSubject, just as this example:
>>> https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Or what is the history of hasCredential?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do I have to use ceterms:name, infront of name when it is wrapped in
>>> a micro credential type?
>>>
>>> Is that becaus the JSON-ld of https://credreg.net/, might not follow
>>> same format when doing schema.org?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not quite sure I understand your question properly. Do you mean why
>>> do you need the "ceterms:" prefix? That identifies the namespace, so that
>>> we know you mean the CTDL version of name not the schema.org or FOAF
>>> version of name (not that there any real difference in this case). It's a
>>> common requirement when JSON-LD builds on more than one vocabulary, see
>>> section 4.1.5 of the JSON-LD spec,
>>> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#compact-iris Often this is hidden
>>> in the JSON-LD context file.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah my questions might come from my lack of JSON-LD knowledge. So this
>>> is more JSON-LD question
>>>
>>> Again this example: https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>>>
>>> I thought by typing the credentialSubject, it would be possible to use
>>> the "childrens" types directly, like email and identifier.
>>>
>>> But that might be a flat hiearchy, and since email and identifier is
>>> directly available on schema.org, it has no relation to its type?
>>>
>>> And that everything comes from context, and if I want to have flatter
>>> attributes, I would have to explicitly define them like this example:
>>> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#example-using-vocabularies?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>>
>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>>
>>> +47 411 611 94
>>> www.diwala.io
>>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>>>
>>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>>>
>>> +47 411 611 94
>>> www.diwala.io
>>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>>> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy for
>>> innovation in education technology.
>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
>>> information systems for education.
>>>
>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
>>> England number OC399090
>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
>>> number SC569282.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>> +47 411 611 94
>> www.diwala.io
>> <http://www.diwala.io/>
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>>
>

-- 

*Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
+47 411 611 94
www.diwala.io
<http://www.diwala.io/>
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