Re: [MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2022-04-18

Hi Snorre,

We’re playing catch up on publishing minutes. But you can access the raw minutes & audio here:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/scribe-tool/ <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/scribe-tool/>

In the “Weekly Meeting” dropdown choose “Education” and enter the date of the meeting you’re retrieving. This is the same tool the co-chairs use to edit the minutes, download audio, and publish to the CCG meetings repo.

Thanks,

Kerri







> On Apr 25, 2022, at 4:07 AM, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
> 
> How do one find video recordings of vc edu meetings?
> CCG calls can be "decucted" from url and date, but what are these edu meetings under?
> This meeting particularly has some visuals that is interesting to look at
> ᐧ
> 
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 7:56 PM Kerri Lemoie <klemoie@concentricsky.com <mailto:klemoie@concentricsky.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org <mailto:minutes@w3c-ccg.org>>
>> Subject: [MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2022-04-18
>> Date: April 21, 2022 at 1:53:36 PM EDT
>> To: public-credentials@w3.org <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>
>> Resent-From: public-credentials@w3.org <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>
>> 
>> Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
>> 
>> The transcript for the call is now available here:
>> 
>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-04-18-vc-education/ <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-04-18-vc-education/>
>> 
>> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
>> Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
>> 
>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-04-18-vc-education/audio.ogg <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-04-18-vc-education/audio.ogg>
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2022-04-18
>> 
>> Agenda:
>>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2022Apr/0020.html <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2022Apr/0020.html>
>> Topics:
>>  1. IP Note
>>  2. Call Notes
>>  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
>>  4. Announcements & Reminders
>>  5. VC Governance
>>  6. PDFS as VCs with James Chartrand from McMaster University
>>  7. Credential Display in Wallets Discussion
>> Organizer:
>>  Kerri Lemoie
>> Scribe:
>>  Our Robot Overlords
>> Present:
>>  Kerri Lemoie, James Chartrand, Stuart Freeman, Deb Everhart, 
>>  Brandon Muramatsu, JeffO Real-IT, Geun-Hyung, Simone Ravaoli, 
>>  Marty Reed, Dmitri Zagidulin, John Kuo, Andy Miller, Keith, Phil 
>>  L (P1), Nikos Fotiou, Yashwardhan, Leon, yashwardhan, G, Alan 
>>  Davies, Colin (LEF), Kayode Ezike, David Chadwick, Jim Goodell, 
>>  Kaliya, Timothy Summers
>> 
>> Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Hello welcome to the VC edu task force call on 
>>  Monday April 18th I'm today we are going to be discussing 
>>  credential display in the wallets including PDFs and also a quick 
>>  touch base on VC and VC Edu governance.
>> 
>> Topic: IP Note
>> 
>> Kerri Lemoie:  I'm for we get started let's start with the IP 
>>  note anyone can participate in these calls everyone is welcome 
>>  however any substitutive contributors to any of the ccg work 
>>  items including this task force must be done by members of the 
>>  ccg with full IP our agreement signed in you can learn more about 
>>  this at this link that I'm going to put in the chat right now.
>> Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join>
>> 
>> Topic: Call Notes
>> 
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Hey for call notes these minutes well this isn't 
>>  that these meetings are recorded an audio recording done for 
>>  every call as much as we can do this but they're also transcribed 
>>  by the robot overlords and you will see in the chat the job that 
>>  they are doing as we speak if you see that there is anything that 
>>  could be corrected that's being transcribed improperly please do 
>>  us a favor and.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  You see it do a.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Substitution and the chat and you can do that by 
>>  typing s /i'm phrased to fix or word and then fix phrase I'll put 
>>  that in the chat as an example.
>> Kerri Lemoie: Example: s/phrase to fix/fixed phrase/
>> Kerri Lemoie:  I'm sure that as I speak robot overlords and I 
>>  don't always get along well so I'm sure we will see lots of 
>>  examples of that please note that we do use a cue system and 
>>  these calls so if you have something to say or question to say 
>>  please type Q the letter Q & A plus sign farewell adieu to the Q 
>>  and if you feel as though your kids your mind you can type Q - 
>>  and I will remove you from the queue by doing.
>> Kerri Lemoie:   I'm this we will.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  At the Q and then call on you in order.
>> 
>> Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
>> 
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay why don't we see first is there anyone here 
>>  who's new to the call or who like to make an introduction of 
>>  themselves today or anyone who's been in the call for a while and 
>>  would like to reintroduce themselves or have some news to share 
>>  Dimitri you're in the cube.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hi can you hear me okay.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So yeah I thought I'd do a quick 
>>  reintroduction only because one of my hats has changed so I have 
>>  recently reduced my work with digital bizarre do I'm still in 
>>  close collaboration with Angela's our team and have stepped up my 
>>  involvement in virtual reality and augmented reality so I'm still 
>>  doing the same things verifiable credential.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Decentralized identifiers Secure Storage just 
>>  bringing that toolbox to the AR and VR world still also involved 
>>  in digital credentials Consortium and the learner wallet there 
>>  that's it.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Dimitri that sounds incredibly exciting 
>>  that's awesome.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Anybody else have would like to make an 
>>  introduction or update us on your current work.
>> 
>> Topic: Announcements & Reminders
>> 
>> Kerri Lemoie:  So next we have announcements and reminders keep 
>>  in mind that every Tuesday at noon Eastern is the ccg call and 
>>  that is always worth checking out if you have time to do so to 
>>  stay up to date on what is going on overall in this community.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  I'm also next week is the internet identity 
>>  workshop and that starts on Tuesday this Tuesday through 
>>  Wednesday or is this Tuesday Wednesday I think but it's next week 
>>  and that means that we will not have a call next week so next 
>>  Monday there will be no VC I'd you call I'll send an email 
>>  reminder out but I just want to let you know they were going to 
>>  skip next week because some of us will be at that meeting and 
>>  we'll be able to do this as well are we traveling that day.
>> <jeffo_real-it> IIW is  Tues, Wed Thurs - Sodl out apparently.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Just check the queue here see if we have.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  I'm sorry I let sold out incredible thank you.
>> <jeffo_real-it> 250 cap
>> 
>> Topic: VC Governance
>> 
>> Kerri Lemoie:  So before we get started with James we have Jim 
>>  chartered in here who's been doing some interesting work on PDFs 
>>  as we seize I was here from McMaster University and I'm just 
>>  going to fill us in on that work you may have seen some 
>>  descriptions of this and the mailing list and we thought it would 
>>  make a lot of sense to ask him to come tell us and every CH you 
>>  you know what how they've gone about doing this PDFs is something 
>>  that open badges has discussed for a long time it also has come 
>>  up quite a bit in this community.
>> Kerri Lemoie:   You before there's a whole lot of reasons to use 
>>  PDFs in education.
>> <jeffo_real-it> If anyone wants IIW ticket check in any case just 
>>  in case.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  I'm there there are well understood format and you 
>>  know and can be secured and have embedded data in such as James 
>>  will tell you and then we're going to talk more about a 
>>  credential display and wallets and then I'm gonna have to meet 
>>  you just helped lead that discussion to you because he has some 
>>  things in mind but before we get started if you don't mind I just 
>>  I wanted to ask you all to take a look.
>> Kerri Lemoie:   At this mirror board.
>> Kerri Lemoie: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVO8bG_9s=/ <https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVO8bG_9s=/>
>> Kerri Lemoie:  The chat and I will share my screen when one thing 
>>  that we have been talking about or thinking about a lot is what 
>>  is governance right what is governance in this space.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  A lot of misconceptions and a lot of questions and 
>>  I really hope to be able to push on this topic more at internet 
>>  at the iaw next week and so I'm hoping that I could do some 
>>  research with folks in this community before we go to see what 
>>  kind of assumptions and questions and understandings that you 
>>  have about about what governance is so although I'm not a huge 
>>  fan of Mero I feel like this is a good place to do this because.
>> Kerri Lemoie:   You can bring it whatever you'd like whenever you 
>>  want if.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  We need another section other than assumptions and 
>>  questions go ahead and create that you could do what you want 
>>  with this board and then we'll take a look at it at the end of 
>>  the week or early next week and and see what we're learning in 
>>  here and what you know of questions and assumptions we should be 
>>  addressing.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  And before I move on I sort of want to check in to 
>>  see if anybody would like to talk about that now if they have 
>>  anyone has any questions about this or any sort of like it's up 
>>  to some questions you'd like to bring up right now before we even 
>>  get into our main topic.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  You I will start an email thread on this later 
>>  today and then feel free to respond to that and add whatever 
>>  you'd like to this board also feel free to reach out to me 
>>  directly if you'd like to just talk about it some more I am I 
>>  don't have a lot of understanding of what governance is I've seen 
>>  it implemented in various ways and I've heard of some really 
>>  interesting ideas for Registries Registries and things of that 
>>  nature I've also heard a lot of.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Fusion between what accreditation is and what VC 
>>  governance is and so I thought it would be a good idea for us to 
>>  really gather as many questions that assumptions as we could so 
>>  we can start tackling this over the next couple of months.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Critic you some tea so James like to write you to 
>>  participate and and present what you have for us I will stop 
>>  sharing my screen so you can do that like you.
>> 
>> Topic: PDFS as VCs with James Chartrand from McMaster University
>> 
>> Kerri Lemoie:  How you doing James nice to see you.
>> James Chartrand:  Okay thank you I'm good yeah.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  One thing you might want to do James's turn off 
>>  your video because we've been having some problems with memory 
>>  issues the jitsi and I'd love to record as much of this as 
>>  possible so.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Awesome yes thank you.
>> James Chartrand:  Yeah I just turned it on for a sec so people 
>>  can see what I look like here we go sure so share my screen.
>> James Chartrand:  Sorry I'm looks like I'm having to go through 
>>  and.
>> James Chartrand:  So it's I'm going to have to restart but I will 
>>  be right back.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay Dimitri while we're waiting for James to come 
>>  back to you want to sort of approach to subjective credentials 
>>  displays and wallets.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Sure yeah so with invisi edu here we've got 
>>  two pressing problems that we need to solve we've got to pain 
>>  points one is so we have these verifiable credentials that are 
>>  going to be displayed in wallets but we also would like.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  To bind them to more traditional display 
>>  artifacts such as PDFs and that's what James is going to be 
>>  talking about and then the second one is also on the subject of 
>>  display slightly different somewhat related we want issuers to be 
>>  able to specify exactly or at least advised to wallets verifiers 
>>  and other software how to display the credential because at the 
>>  moment every single wallet everything would be so.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:   A soft fire.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  On in the DC world is some way out now there 
>>  have been precedents in for example open Badges and and some 
>>  other VC projects that have used things like embedded images to 
>>  specify how the credential should be displayed and that's that's 
>>  the other topic that would like to touch on today but James is 
>>  back so over to you.
>> James Chartrand:  Okay so maybe I'll just get a very quick bit of 
>>  background so this is a project at McMaster University and it's a 
>>  joint project between the faculty of engineering and the office 
>>  of the registrar there they got into SSI a couple of years ago 
>>  and started out with lock certs so kind of one of the precursors 
>>  to I guess verifiable credentials and we at the time started out 
>>  with a very.
>> James Chartrand:   It's a relatively small pilot.
>> James Chartrand:  Like like 50 students where we issued 
>>  certificates so not degrees and they were issued to the students 
>>  as a batch and went into the block search wallet and that's where 
>>  the student held the certificate and they would share it from 
>>  there and it was all Json that went very well we then went and 
>>  decided to do degrees so issued for very small cohort of students 
>>  maybe 50 students in the faculty of engineering their actual 
>>  degrees again they.
>> James Chartrand:   They lived in the block search wallet and the 
>>  students shared their.
>> James Chartrand:  That also went very well and then when covid 
>>  hit the registrar thought and so when covid hit there were a lot 
>>  of problems Distributing will they were alone all sorts of 
>>  problems but among them was Distributing the degrees the paper 
>>  copies of degrees to students so rather than mail out all of the 
>>  copies the university decided to also offer the option to get the 
>>  digital copy of the block.
>> James Chartrand:  Shorts and they open that up to.
>> James Chartrand:  And remarkably that went very well as well and 
>>  there was massive uptake it was 80 something percent of students 
>>  chose to download a copy of their degree everybody was super 
>>  happy with it blocks Arts was great but at that time as a result 
>>  of our work we kind of got introduced to the DCC and eventually 
>>  joined the DCC and from there we're introduced a verifiable 
>>  credentials and.
>> James Chartrand:   Centralized identifiers so wanted to move.
>> James Chartrand:  Our prior blocks our system to verify with 
>>  pensions and decentralized identifiers we also wanted to move off 
>>  of the Bitcoin blockchain which is where we've been just where 
>>  our blocks our system anchored hashes of the credentials and we 
>>  wanted to move off for a couple of reasons one is gdpr and 
>>  similar kinds of privacy laws where it seems It's not entirely 
>>  clear but it seems at times as though even hashes aren't allowed 
>>  on a blockchain.
>> James Chartrand:   For us with the degrees it was fine.
>> James Chartrand:  As the degree information is public information 
>>  and so the fact that somebody got a degree from McMasters public 
>>  information and so you know we thought it was decided that that 
>>  was okay to put that up permanently on the Bitcoin blockchain 
>>  even even though it was just a hash anyhow also wanted to get off 
>>  the Bitcoin blockchain because we wanted to move from a batch 
>>  issuance which is what we're doing with blocks hurts where you 
>>  know the entire cohort at graduation time so thousand.
>> James Chartrand:   It's whatever would all get their degrees at 
>>  once.
>> James Chartrand:  It was all a Merkel took all the credentials 
>>  were hashed together into a Merkel and the Merkel was put up on 
>>  the Bitcoin blockchain and so that made it you know affordable 
>>  but with Rising transaction costs on blockchains like Bitcoin and 
>>  fact that we wanted to move to an on-demand issuance system where 
>>  a student could request and get their credential or degree 
>>  immediately but if we were to Anchor every one of those on the 
>>  Bitcoin blockchain.
>> James Chartrand:   The cost would become likely.
>> James Chartrand:  Exorbitant so anyhow we wanted to move to 
>>  verify the credentials decentralized identifiers talked to the 
>>  registrar thought maybe we should start with a pilot again she 
>>  suggested this is Melissa pool is the Registrar of McMaster very 
>>  forward-thinking registrar she suggested that we take a look at 
>>  letters that the registrar's office issues to students to confirm 
>>  basically student status in different ways so like the letter 
>>  that you see up there on the left which control confirms the 
>>  enrollment details.
>> James Chartrand:   Or student so these are letters that students 
>>  use say when they're applying.
>> James Chartrand:  Job if the letter say says that they've earned 
>>  their degree they are also used but things like getting a better 
>>  student bank account freeing up money from your student savings 
>>  plan or incoming foreign students might use one of these letters 
>>  when they're applying for a Visa coming into the country.
>> James Chartrand:  And so we thought great and initially we 
>>  thought okay we'll just do it the same way will issue Json copies 
>>  so you know the actual verifiable credential as Json to the 
>>  student and it will live in a wallet but we in talking to some of 
>>  the people in the registrar's office realized that just wasn't 
>>  feasible because these letters are often they pretty much need to 
>>  be PDFs because of how they're used so.
>> James Chartrand:   In some cases they're uploaded as.
>> James Chartrand:  Application process say if you are applying for 
>>  a Visa and you need to upload a letter confirming your status the 
>>  system will only take you know an image or a PDF and that's later 
>>  reviewed by somebody who looks at it so if it had been Json they 
>>  wouldn't you know it would be nonsensical to them and they 
>>  wouldn't know what to do with it also sometimes the letters do 
>>  need to be printed off and handed to somebody like say when a 
>>  foreign student is riding in the country and the way it works in 
>>  Canada is you.
>> James Chartrand:   To process your visa application as you as you 
>>  step off the airplane.
>> James Chartrand:  Typically you've got all your papers you know 
>>  you know folder and you present them to the agent the agent goes 
>>  through them and reviews from them decides yay or nay so it had 
>>  to be printable as a paper copy okay so I will take you very 
>>  quickly through what we've built here this is totally integrated 
>>  into the Microsoft Azure authentication system on campus and 
>>  draws data from a back-end PeopleSoft system.
>> James Chartrand:  Go to this web browser on the right this is 
>>  where the student would write this again is just a pilot nothing 
>>  here is in production and the dire warnings there are because 
>>  rightfully so the registrar is concerned that we don't want 
>>  anybody to think that this is the system that's being used at 
>>  McMaster University because then you could imagine scenarios like 
>>  the student arrived a student arriving at.
>> James Chartrand:   The border agent of the.
>> James Chartrand:  Thanks this is what they should thinks that 
>>  they should be getting a copy of a letter like this with a QR you 
>>  know and then doesn't accept one without a QR so we're being 
>>  extra careful not to make anyone think that this is a production 
>>  system okay yeah so I am here I'm a student I will login.
>> James Chartrand:  I will request a letter we've got the red star 
>>  chose four different letters I'll choose confirmation of status 
>>  so that kicked off a dynamic process in the background it pulls 
>>  the information from the PeopleSoft system based on the student 
>>  login ID assembles the PDF letter I'm using I think Jace PDF some 
>>  kind of JavaScript PDF library to construct it on the Fly insert 
>>  the information at the same time.
>> James Chartrand:   I turn the information into.
>> James Chartrand:  The information into a verifiable credential 
>>  then into a verifiable presentation then use digital bazaars 
>>  amazing libraries and be pqr to produce the QR code which I then 
>>  insert into the PDF which you can see down in the bottom right 
>>  hand corner of the letter on the left hand side and then return 
>>  it to the student so it's been downloaded and it's in my 
>>  downloads there I will show you a and so anyhow it corresponds 
>>  exactly to the letter that you see on the left here.
>> James Chartrand:   Now the student can of course take.
>> James Chartrand:  In email it to somebody that can text message 
>>  it to somebody they can do whatever they want to with it they can 
>>  use it as many times as they want to so say they emailed it to me 
>>  and I'm an employer I can come to this website potential Sonic 
>>  Master don't see a pretty much have to know in advance that 
>>  that's the website to which I should go and of course you know 
>>  I'm sure people rightfully point out here that there are 
>>  significant problems with this among them are that.
>> James Chartrand:  Um somebody can fake the verification website 
>>  but I think that's a general problem in any case assuming I know 
>>  to go to credentials dot McMaster C.C a I arrived there I choose 
>>  verify letter I will choose to upload a letter file I choose the 
>>  file upload and it does its verification on you know the usual 
>>  way of extracting the BC from the qur an and then doing the 
>>  verification one kind of interesting thing that happened there is 
>>  that.
>> James Chartrand:   What I did what the code did and first of all.
>> James Chartrand:  That code is running entirely in the web 
>>  browser there's there was no call back to the server there so it 
>>  took the it was another JavaScript library that took the PDF 
>>  opened it up found the QR image inside the PDF and then from 
>>  there and vote the digital bizarre libraries to extract the VC 
>>  and run the normal verification okay so that was one kind of 
>>  verification now I will show you.
>> James Chartrand:  Printed copy of that letter the sitting on my 
>>  desk here and I've got my phone hooked up which you can see on 
>>  the left so I will choose sorry so I'm going to go over here to 
>>  my phone and it's the same webpage this time I will choose her if 
>>  I let her again and I will choose scan QR on letter L.
>> James Chartrand:  And again at 35 exactly the same way and that's 
>>  it that's it's a super simple system which you know we kind of 
>>  figures one of the appealing parts of it there's it's dead simple 
>>  so extremely easy to use some of the challenges that we still 
>>  face or that I guess we Face our somebody could fake the PDF so 
>>  they could change some of the details that are within the PDF we 
>>  kind.
>> James Chartrand:   Dove deal with that a little.
>> James Chartrand:  By virtue of the fact that the entire that 
>>  sorry what's in the BC that's in that QR code contains the 
>>  critical information that somebody would want to verify so up 
>>  there on the left and my phone you can see that the down below it 
>>  says undefined undefined because we're blanking out student 
>>  information for this and it says is registered at McMaster 
>>  University is a full-time undergraduate student for the 2028 term 
>>  so it.
>> James Chartrand:  I was there what was inside the veritable 
>>  verifiable credential So what had been signed and you know 
>>  doesn't show.
>> James Chartrand:  What was in the PDF nessus I mean it is what's 
>>  in the PF but it's only what was in the verifiable credentialing 
>>  confirmed but of course somebody could take the entire PDF and 
>>  they could put a fake QR code on there and they could provide a 
>>  fake link and if somebody didn't know to go to the McMaster web 
>>  page to verify this they would they could very easily be fooled 
>>  the other thing that we would very much like to do is to start to 
>>  move.
>> James Chartrand:   From these letters.
>> James Chartrand:  Towards something more like a student ID 
>>  because what we've got here is effectively a student ID I mean it 
>>  declares the student status but we'd like to take a you know a 
>>  little step further and start to use it within a wallet like the 
>>  DCCC wallet as a replacement for the plastic student card in 
>>  which case we would have to put more information into it and in 
>>  particular would have to put a student photo into it and at that 
>>  point.
>> James Chartrand:   Point the verifiable credential would be.
>> James Chartrand:  It inside a QR code so this is where I think 
>>  Dimitri was talking about this a little bit before I got started 
>>  that we need to start to think about how we can transfer some of 
>>  that information and one way is maybe to create a kind of 
>>  ephemeral storage for the full DC and the QR code simply points 
>>  to that storage and it might be encrypted as well and we passed 
>>  the key to the verifier so anyhow different kinds of things to 
>>  start to look at after that and that works out well because I'm 
>>  done no I.
>> James Chartrand:   I know it's great you're going to restart it 
>>  but.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Sorry about that I'm not going to start the 
>>  recording but the transcriber we'll keep going so we'll take it 
>>  from there thanks.
>> James Chartrand:  So I am is so any questions that anybody has 
>>  feel free.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Don't see any questions in the queue right now 
>>  James what are some common questions that you've gotten besides 
>>  say the QR code issues and the faking of PD PDFs.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Or have you already covered those terms of what 
>>  you told us excuse me.
>> James Chartrand:  Yeah I think I covered them.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay I do see Phil Long in the queue so I'm gonna 
>>  call in fill her.
>> <yashwardhan> what was the acceptance level of administration?
>> <keith> I think its a great solution bridging the legacy world 
>>  with the new digital world.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Phil Long you have a give the floor if you can 
>>  hear us.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And you're speaking you're muted.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Yes okay why don't I call on Marty Marty you have 
>>  the floor and can come back we'll add them back to the queue.
>> Marty Reed:  Sure thanks James for this question a couple 
>>  questions one you know how do you how do you handle revocation 
>>  or.
>> Marty Reed:  Or how do you handle versioning or do you is that 
>>  part of this.
>> <kerri_lemoie> @yashwardhan - I'll ask your question next
>> James Chartrand:  The simple answer is it's not part of it the 
>>  idea with these legs and this is one of the reasons that we chose 
>>  the letters as kind of a starting point is that they in a sense 
>>  it expire then the other way where are they.
>> James Chartrand:  Dated letters and so--.
>> James Chartrand:  Are no longer useful after a given day so 
>>  exactly the same way the paper letter would have you know become 
>>  dated at some point it would be very nice to be able to revoke 
>>  them and at some point I mean once we have a relocation system in 
>>  place we would do that and I think at that point it would just 
>>  work like any other room relocation system for credentials.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  I feel before you go I'm sorry I'm going to call 
>>  and I yes I'm going to ask you a short answer question what was 
>>  the acceptance level of administration.
>> James Chartrand:  It probably depends with part of the 
>>  administration the registrar has been incredibly supportive and 
>>  as I said before is very very forward-thinking I don't know that 
>>  at other universities registrar's would look at it quite the same 
>>  way however generally we found that whenever we've shown this to 
>>  anybody within the administration you know they pretty quickly.
>> James Chartrand:   We see the benefits of it.
>> James Chartrand:  And the fact that it's extremely easy to use 
>>  you get instant verification so I would say it's almost it's 
>>  almost always the case that we get very very positive feedback 
>>  from everybody within Administration and I suppose another way of 
>>  looking at it is they've continued to fund this so that's a 
>>  pretty good indication that people can see the value of it.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah totally alright Phil on you have the floor.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Yeah apologies can you hear me.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Okay I was curious that you mentioned that you did 
>>  internally decided that the need to use sort of existing 
>>  processes and systems which were PDF depend if you will lead you 
>>  at this stage to focus on encompassing the verifiable credential 
>>  as an attachment to the PDF through the QR code but I was 
>>  wondering is.
>> Phil_L_(P1): And some sense looking at the rendering of the data 
>>  in a Json file into something that could be more approximating a 
>>  fully rendered text document of the sort to PDFs generate as a 
>>  second phase so that you didn't have to deal with that particular 
>>  problem that I suspect Dimitri's going to be talking about in 
>>  later in the session or was there some other reason beyond that 
>>  other than the not wanting to have to.
>> Phil_L_(P1):  Icon building a renderer that could make it look 
>>  pretty for.
>> James Chartrand:  Yes so initially we thought that we would send 
>>  these credentials down into our what a digital wallet you know on 
>>  somebody's phone and then from there they would share it and you 
>>  know possibly even at that point PDF could be automatically 
>>  generated from the wallet directly but.
>> James Chartrand:  Talking to the registrar's office they made it 
>>  pretty clear that students expect at the moment a PDF and that's 
>>  almost always how they use this thing and so kind of introducing 
>>  a wallet into it just overcomplicate it they basically just need 
>>  to go to this website Download a pdf and then use the PDF if it 
>>  went into a wallet and then they had to do something from the 
>>  wallet then they'd have to install the wallet app today.
>> James Chartrand:   Deal with what was in the wallet so.
>> James Chartrand:  Only just that for this pilot it's what made 
>>  the most sense I don't know if that answers your question.
>> <deb_everhart> but isn't the wallet the way the person controls 
>>  the record?
>> James Chartrand:  Yes yes exactly.
>> Phil_L_(P1): No it does it I think that you're making a very 
>>  Salient point that there's only so much transition you can make 
>>  in one jump and at and the bigger problem isn't the technology so 
>>  in so much as it is the humans that need to be able to feel 
>>  comfortable with it so I think that's a very good observation 
>>  thank you.
>> James Chartrand:  Yeah and it was also very very easy well it was 
>>  relatively easy to do what we did you know the amazing libraries 
>>  that digital bizarre provides and they you know the amazing all 
>>  of the amazing libraries that are in mpm just made it pretty easy 
>>  to put this thing together and produce something that's actually 
>>  is immediately usable.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Got it understood.
>> 
>> Topic: Credential Display in Wallets Discussion
>> 
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks so I wanted to respond to Phil's 
>>  question real quick and then touch on the two points that Marty 
>>  brought up in terms of your question Phil.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And why the approach of the PDF rather than 
>>  being able to embed the display logic in the VC we need both we 
>>  definitely need both will be talking about the display logic part 
>>  are shortly but I wanted to highlight that one very important 
>>  point.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  In a way.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Producing a PDF or rather binding.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  From a PDF to a credential shortcuts the need 
>>  for a widely deployed verifier architecture and widely deployed 
>>  wallet and display architecture because everybody from students 
>>  too.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Admission counselors to border guards knows 
>>  what to do with either PDFs or paper.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  A binding from PDF to credential your you 
>>  doing sort of progressive layering your you bootstrapping the 
>>  whole ecosystem oh Natasha real quick on the two points that 
>>  Marty brought up which is about revocation and about versioning.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Put lipstick revocation first one thing that I 
>>  want to highlight is and James touched on this already.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Separation is an alternative mechanism to 
>>  versioning so Ian a couple of use cases such as when you have a 
>>  printed piece of paper or a generated PDF with the student hens 
>>  over.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's no way to do revocation there or if 
>>  there is it's very crude like putting a footer down down at the 
>>  bottom that says before accepting this please pick up the phone 
>>  and call this admission officer to make sure that's still valid 
>>  right that's that has both privacy implications and is incredibly 
>>  awkward usability wise so what what that project does is use 
>>  expiration.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  As a risk mitigation mechanism.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Same way that replication is used so just 
>>  wanted to highlight in those cases where you can't do revocation 
>>  the forget that exploration plays the same.
>> <kerri_lemoie> I've been working on an LER interoperablity 
>>  spectrum that is open for input/opinions: 
>>  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fwMNbrFL78bVWnZ0BmObFBJnj0uGnFHhR00frybUiTA/edit <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fwMNbrFL78bVWnZ0BmObFBJnj0uGnFHhR00frybUiTA/edit>
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Same method the other thing that I wanted to 
>>  talk John or a rather ask a clarifying question about is 
>>  versioning can you tell us a little more what are what do you 
>>  mean by versioning of of credentials what are some use cases 
>>  where you would immersion it thanks.
>> Marty Reed:  That a question for me.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes if you don't mind.
>> Marty Reed:  Oh yeah sure so well at least in the open credential 
>>  publisher project we have the idea that transcripts can be issued 
>>  as verifiable credentials to a student however they may change 
>>  until the official transcript is released and so we're just 
>>  thinking about you know versioning.
>> Marty Reed:   As far.
>> <john_kuo> Wouldn't that be more of a lineage of revocation and 
>>  re-issuance?
>> Marty Reed:  You know as that transcript is updated do we need to 
>>  replace the existing credential in the wallet do we need to call 
>>  home and and check for a new version of that credential so into 
>>  your to your expiration point you know that is one one thing that 
>>  we've definitely you know looked at.
>> Marty Reed:  From a from a verification standpoint but that's 
>>  that's the use cases like the the transcript may be issued to a 
>>  wallet prior to its being quote unquote official and so in that 
>>  case you know the desired functionality would be that you know a 
>>  student would go in look at their credential and it would say hey 
>>  there's a new version of your credential would you like to 
>>  download that now.
>> Marty Reed:   And also.
>> <dmitri_zagidulin> @John - revocation (of previous versions) 
>>  might not be needed or appropriate. Because each VC says "at this 
>>  point in time the following is true"
>> <dmitri_zagidulin> revoking such a VC says "actually, that VC 
>>  WASN'T valid at that point in time"
>> Marty Reed:  For like a teacher teacher license a teacher could 
>>  have a license with multiple endorsements attached to it that 
>>  license can be updated over time to add and subtract endorsements 
>>  and so for professional licenses there's this idea of you know 
>>  versioning and updating endorsements within the existing 
>>  credential.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Got it I think if I can jump the queue real 
>>  quick so that makes a lot of sense and this sounds like a great 
>>  topic for a future call the particular question of versioning of 
>>  long-run credentials such as a medical history employment record 
>>  or transcript sounds like there's a lot that we want to discuss 
>>  their.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:   I do want to touch on.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Something that was brought up a question by 
>>  John and Chad of would you be able to implement versioning as a 
>>  series of revocation and reissuance and as I pointed out in chat 
>>  that.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Visions yes revocation might not be required 
>>  or even even allowed there because essentially each one of those 
>>  success of their fiber credentials are snapshots of something 
>>  that is true at that point in time so much by the way our paper 
>>  existing paper credentials already have this notion of versioning 
>>  intuitively such as a bank statement that says this is what we 
>>  know to be true as of this point in time.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:   And then later if.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  If another transaction comes in or if the bank 
>>  changes something.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The bank statement looks different but at that 
>>  point in time that was the views similarly what we're saying with 
>>  the transcript is at this point in time this was the snapshot and 
>>  by revoking such a verifiable credential we're essentially saying 
>>  no that wasn't true of that time right revocation doesn't mean 
>>  there is a newer version available it means whatever was said 
>>  then is not true thanks.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Phil you have the floor.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Thank you I didn't that I think Dimitri is what I 
>>  was asked about in the versioning system that Marty was 
>>  describing which is if let's say that a new version is available 
>>  when the individual opens their wallet to look at a particular 
>>  credential presumably the credential the wallet has been has been 
>>  informed that there is a new version available to prompt them to 
>>  do that if the individual.
>> Phil_L_(P1):  chose not to I'm.
>> <marty_reed> On the revocation discussion, I'd love to hear/see 
>>  any demonstrations of revocation.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Wicked can you ask that again about the Third.
>> <marty_reed> currently validation fails if there is a new version 
>>  in the parent system
>> Phil_L_(P1): Assuming that you would you're saying that the 
>>  validation would fail when if they decided to send it to a third 
>>  party and I just wanted to verify that that's what the intent in 
>>  the current thinking would be and I guess sure yes that you know 
>>  the way in which the question was posed to the person holding the 
>>  wall at the holder is that there's a new version the credential 
>>  available.
>> Phil_L_(P1):  I presume you.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Declined to accept that and just send the existing 
>>  one you have because it is signed and the like the question is is 
>>  the presumption that the verifier knows the new exhibit new 
>>  version is available somehow and therefore would decline 
>>  verification of the one that was sent to a an employer or some 
>>  other entity and they then chose to verify try to verify that 
>>  one.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Feels bad I'm question who is that question 
>>  directed Up.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Well it to put to full 12 Marty because he talked 
>>  about it in the ocp but I'm also interested in McMaster case 
>>  because it sounds like the way it's currently designed the coming 
>>  back to the Mother Ship so to speak as part of the current 
>>  designs of the system which would potentially allow them to be 
>>  able to decline a credential that's been updated and the 
>>  individual has failed to download the newest version so I just 
>>  want to verify that too.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay to be introduced by and holding in the queue 
>>  for one moment so James and Marty could reply.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Not at all sure though I do want to reply to 
>>  that as well.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay great tips.
>> James Chartrand:  Um so this is actually something that we've 
>>  talked about a lot of Ink Master in the context the context of 
>>  transcripts which is something that we would like to issue this 
>>  way but my suspicion is that different registrars will have 
>>  different policies and some might be fine with the kind of the 
>>  snapshot in time and having a whole load of those circulating 
>>  around and it's up to whoever's you know verifying the transcript 
>>  to make sure they've got the latest and greatest.
>> James Chartrand:   You know as they would.
>> James Chartrand:  Copies before but I suspect in some cases the 
>>  registrar would like to have more control over that and make sure 
>>  that people are getting the latest copy fill you asked if at 
>>  McMaster we might exert some control at verification time over 
>>  what's available what's you know considered the latest and 
>>  greatest and I mean we're not anywhere near there this is the 
>>  pilot that I showed is pretty much what we've got for this.
>> James Chartrand:   So we.
>> James Chartrand:  Have anything beyond that however my guess is 
>>  that at McMaster.
>> James Chartrand:  They would want to indicate in some way that a 
>>  newer version was available so you know so which is another way 
>>  that it could work is simply that when you come to verify a check 
>>  is made against a relocation list which might also show not just 
>>  that something had been you know there might be different levels 
>>  of relocation or different types of relocations so.
>> James Chartrand:   You know as Dimitri said you.
>> James Chartrand:  Means that the credential is no longer valid 
>>  but you could imagine having a different type that's Ed's the 
>>  credential is old and there's a newer version so that's a 
>>  possibility and that I also wanted to just say quickly that yes 
>>  the verification does come back to McMaster at the moment but 
>>  only in the sense that you load the web page the actual 
>>  verification is happening entirely within the web browser within 
>>  the JavaScript so there's no phone home going on there.
>> James Chartrand:  We could so any kind of you know check on the 
>>  validity of a transcript would have to check a re vocation or 
>>  status list of some sort hopefully that answers your question.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks James Marty.
>> Marty Reed:  So I kind of have a layered answer one is that in 
>>  the simplest form that verification fails if the issuer decides 
>>  that that credential is no longer valid so it's a call home to 
>>  the publishing service that that request that verification now I 
>>  will say publishing to Sovereign base wallet.
>> Marty Reed:  Lisa the VC.
>> Marty Reed:  It's you know again not elegant I'm not known for 
>>  Elegance but the VC that is issued to the wallet is verifiable 
>>  and then the payload itself must be verified to the issuer as 
>>  it's basically a self-published or self issued VC at that point 
>>  so there's there's two layers to the approach but we're exploring 
>>  different different methods but that's how it works right now.
>> <deb_everhart> don't registrars already submit "in progress" 
>>  student data, such as NSC PDP data reporting and current 
>>  enrollment requests from students and others, such as the 
>>  enrollment letter shown?
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Marty Dimitri you have the floor.
>> <deb_everhart> I thought in progress reporting was a common use 
>>  case
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks so I wanted to add to the discussion 
>>  that so one I think versioning is a really useful mechanism we 
>>  should an issue on it on the PC you do you repo and discuss it 
>>  continue the discussion in depth on a future call I just want to 
>>  say we already use something like this.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  SeaWorld but in the w3c spec World each draft 
>>  of the spec says here's the snapshot as of this date but go check 
>>  over here here's the canonical location of the spec please check 
>>  to see if it's it's been updated so it might make sense for us to 
>>  explicitly able to specify this is a version where fiber 
>>  credential and this is not a version where fiber credential the 
>>  example of non version verify.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Credentials for example.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Here's an age verification credential that 
>>  somebody is over 21.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  That statement is never going to change the 
>>  thing that can change is that it could be revoked.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  They used fake ID or whatever however there's 
>>  no there's not going to be an updated version like they're always 
>>  going to be over 21 until they die is ETC but that's a different 
>>  problem so let's open an issue this might be a really useful item 
>>  for this group to work on.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah I agree let's definitely do that does anyone 
>>  else have any other questions for James or James you have 
>>  anything else you'd like to add.
>> James Chartrand:  No I think I'll take a look at this time so I'm 
>>  good thanks thank you very much for having me.
>> <phil_l_(p1)> Thank you James. Great work!
>> Kerri Lemoie:  Now we appreciate it we appreciate it thank you 
>>  very much doing chairman and hand things over to you so you can 
>>  talk to us more about the while it display just continue on that 
>>  discussion.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Kerri okay so let's look at thank you 
>>  again very much James and let's look at late logic short of it 
>>  is.
>> <deb_everhart> thank you James!
>> Kerri Lemoie: +1 Great work!
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Pretty much all the while the projects are up 
>>  against this this use case this need we need to be able to 
>>  specify how to display the credential either HUD specify to the 
>>  pixel or give some suggestions.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed/issues/16 <https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed/issues/16>
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So this is perfect group to make a 
>>  recommendation test it out and then make a proposal to Upstream 
>>  to the ccg and to the verifiable credential working group so I'm 
>>  going to have issued number 16 on our repo talking about this I 
>>  add a couple of notes of use cases.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And so I'd like to ask people disease did he 
>>  sound reasonable are there.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Either use cases to this display specifying 
>>  the display logic that we should add and then we can propose a 
>>  mechanism in the next calls and get dry so essentially.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I was not able to pull up the credentials the 
>>  GitHub issue.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  We need to specify or advise.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Any sort of VC consuming software how to 
>>  display that VC.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  We need to support both cases.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Display logic is completely embedded in the 
>>  credential or.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Display logical if somewhere else so you we're 
>>  linking to an image file or an SVG file or an HTML template 
>>  somewhere else and we just linking to it from the credential so 
>>  that when it comes time to display it display software go use 
>>  that template.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Obviously when we're embedding the display its 
>>  Integrity texted by the verifiable credential signature itself.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Always we're using linking we definitely want 
>>  to recommend using a digest hash like the anchored resource 
>>  mechanism.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  We probably should be able to specify the 
>>  content type of the logic but this link or this embedded logic is 
>>  PDF and HTML and so on.
>> <phil_l_(p1)> The anchored resource mechanism has greater 
>>  applicability to other cases where the size of the "thing" is too 
>>  big to be included within the credential itself.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And we should talk about the preference of the 
>>  credential display being cross-platform right if we're going to 
>>  we're going to have a template if we're going to have an image 
>>  you'd be great if we could just specify one and it would work 
>>  across all platforms mobile desktop and so on but is anybody who 
>>  works in web design knows that is an almost on achievable dream 
>>  so given that as a second step we should provide mechanisms.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:   That say okay if you're using this.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Of device use this Logic for using a much more 
>>  constrained device or a much bigger screen then use this logic 
>>  fortunately we have prior art for both images and stylesheets in 
>>  general so lot of HTML world has the technology that says if 
>>  you're viewing this page on a mobile phone display this way to 
>>  using it on desktop display this way if you printing it then use 
>>  this way so we should we should be mindful of that.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Let's see we got six minutes.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Love to hear from from the group are there 
>>  other considerations are there other input requirements for this 
>>  item.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Keith go ahead.
>> Keith: I think maybe I can just dig deeper on display because I 
>>  think that there can be differences in how well it's display 
>>  information like what's it take Atticus talk about what kind of 
>>  information like typically I mean other while it's that I've been 
>>  involved in you just say things like issue or info like contact 
>>  support info and then the contents of the VC itself and maybe 
>>  images so like I've often thought that while it vendors can 
>>  independently choose how to show that information but I do I mean 
>>  I totally agree with you.
>> Keith:  a point that when you want to display things like issuer 
>>  logo.
>> Keith: This PDF image then you need ways that wallets you know 
>>  you don't want to get a crop properly you want to be able to get 
>>  it sized properly as you can display it properly is that what you 
>>  mean by this because is that what you mean by display a my 
>>  capturing it correctly or are you mean other things as well.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes yes no that's it and you're absolutely 
>>  right that it should be optional.
>> Keith: And I just like it's up to wallet that I mean that's kind 
>>  of the beauty of the market is that the the wallet with the best 
>>  presentation kind of will you know be preferred be preferred by 
>>  consumers is that rather than some sort of like trying to do 
>>  static what is it often like display will be one of the key areas 
>>  of differentiation between wallets how well they do display.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So you're absolutely right though I do want to 
>>  say that they're still in need to be able to do this optionally 
>>  as well James go ahead Joe.
>> James Chartrand:  Yeah so I mean just one of those needs to do it 
>>  statically is as I mentioned before one of the things we'd like 
>>  to do at McMaster is how the student basically.
>> James Chartrand:  Create the plastic student card inside a wallet 
>>  and we want to try to make it initially you know as kind of a 
>>  progressive introduction of this to make it backwards compatible 
>>  and so therefore we want to include the barcode that's on the 
>>  plastic student card and possibly also a QR code that somebody 
>>  could use to similarly scan their student ID so you know it's 
>>  unlikely that a wallet will know how to.
>> James Chartrand:   A show those kinds of things or even know to 
>>  show.
>> James Chartrand:  So if we could instead just provide a single 
>>  image that's shown in the wallet or a student card or for a 
>>  student ID it could be pre you know pretty constructed with the 
>>  barcode down at the bottom with the student image on it with the 
>>  logo of the University so basically again recreating the pretty 
>>  much the same image image that's printed on the plastic card.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks James you've got a couple minutes left 
>>  Andy go ahead.
>> <kaliya> QR codes that are static with VC s dangerous
>> Andy Miller:  I was wondering your thoughts about the use case of 
>>  where the VC is actually embedded in the image or PDF that's 
>>  centrally how open badges that's it now I'm baked badges is a PNG 
>>  or SVG that has the credential in baked into it using the 
>>  structured data.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Great question that that should not should be 
>>  another item of discussion Phil go ahead.
>> Phil_L_(P1): Yes I guess what I wanted to say that it seems to me 
>>  that the hash link approach that you described is actually a 
>>  broadly applicable to any kind of circumstance where the content 
>>  of an object is bigger than is reasonable to include in the in 
>>  the VC itself and so by you know focusing on how you would apply 
>>  that to different circumstances such as the image on a card and 
>>  what's presented when it's displayed.
>> <kaliya> Very dangerous because the can be super easily copied 
>>  and replyed
>> Phil_L_(P1):  then is the composite of the polled image from 
>>  wherever the Third.
>> <dmitri_zagidulin> @Kaliya - great point
>> <dmitri_zagidulin> which suggests the need for templating (rather 
>>  than static image)
>> Phil_L_(P1): And the rendering of the thing of the way it's done 
>>  traditionally on the plastic would be indistinguishable from the 
>>  plastic itself so I think that's the probably the most productive 
>>  approach and the one I would urge us to consider the biggest 
>>  problem that that and UND just described is the the same problem 
>>  of payload size you can do that for small DC's but you can't do 
>>  it for VCS that contain much like evidence and things like that.
>> Phil_L_(P1):  that thanks.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you two minutees left James go ahead.
>> James Chartrand:  So just about the of the idea of using a hash 
>>  link for I think there might be privacy concerns there so we 
>>  might not want to have the student information so and in 
>>  particular say their photo at a URL you know available add URL we 
>>  would want to keep an entirely embedded within the credential the 
>>  so that's just one concern possible concern.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks James and Kalia.
>> <phil_l_(p1)> are there privacy concerns there if the destination 
>>  is itself encrypted?
>> Kaliya: I'll just say what I said in chat stata QR codes.
>> Kaliya: And I guess the same is true for barcodes but you know 
>>  static QR codes with verifiable credentials within them that are 
>>  signed are very very very dangerous the reason being is that they 
>>  are entirely copyable and replayable.
>> <phil_l_(p1)> Excellent point Kaliya
>> Kaliya: Is this not true of verifiable presentations that are you 
>>  can't copy and replace because their presentations not the 
>>  original credential so I have an unfinished but readable paper 
>>  about this largely written by John Jordan that I think I'll try 
>>  and send a list I'm sick right now otherwise I'd send it to chat 
>>  right now but.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed/issues/16 <https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed/issues/16>
>> <kerri_lemoie> Thank you!
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you so much Kelly and we hope you feel 
>>  better soon alright so everyone please let's continue the 
>>  discussion on issue 16.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And a quick questions before we adjourn go 
>>  ahead.
>> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you everyone.
>> Kerri Lemoie:  It sounds good nope I would just say and that's 
>>  good that's take a look at that issue and keep it going we can 
>>  revisit this in the near future thank you so much James and 
>>  Dimitri appreciate it all thank you.
>> <phil_l_(p1)> Thanks!
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin
> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
> +47 411 611 94
> www.diwala.io <http://www.diwala.io/>
>  <http://www.diwala.io/>
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