[MINUTES] CCG VC-EDU Task Force 2021-10-25

Thanks to Phil Long for scribing this week! 

The minutes for this week's CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force telecon are now available:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2021-10-25-vc-education 

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

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CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Telecon Minutes for 2021-10-25

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2021Oct/0068.html
Topics:
  1. Agenda Review
  2. IP Note
  3. Call Notes
  4. Scribe Selection
  5. Introductions & Reintroductions
  6. Announcements & Reminders
  7. Final Charter Acceptance Discussion
  8. Use Cases
Organizer:
  Kerri Lemoie
Scribe:
  Phil Long
Present:
  Kerri Lemoie, Alex, Jon St. John, Phil Long, David Ward, Adam 
  Lemmon, Marty Reed, Dmitri Zagidulin, Matt Lisle, Deb Everhart, 
  Sharon Leu, Eric Kuhn, Valerie Thomas, Kaliya Young, Phil Barker, 
  Kayode Ezike, Matthias Gottlieb, Markus Sabadello
Audio:
  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2021-10-25/audio.ogg

<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Good morning everyone
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Numbers are creeping up ;-)

Topic: Agenda Review

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/
Kerri Lemoie: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/

Topic: Call Notes

Topic: Scribe Selection

<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Happy to scribe if no one else wants 
  the pleasure
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> :-)
Phil Long is scribing.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Introductions for new people to the 
  call:
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Eric_Kuhn (Germany)
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Re-intros? Anyone?
Kerri Lemoie: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Eric Kuhn - Microsoft

Topic: Announcements & Reminders

Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/2021/10/TPAC/Overview.html
<kerri_lemoie> regular CCG meeting time tomorrow, at 9am PT, Noon 
  ET https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/weekly
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2021Oct/0084.html
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> TPAC is currently in progress & an 
  update on that will be provided at the regular Tuesday VC-CCG 
  meeting -URL in the chat
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/11I96C6QMzx9Yv0mvM3hAnc3jB5ER69qmzQTeY1a8M8s/edit
<kerri_lemoie> klemoie@concentricsky.com
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Looking for co-chairs - email Kerri at 
  her email address (in chat).
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/7516333367875/WN_65D7yXQHRsmvGXB9jd9i2w
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://www.openskillsnetwork.org/skills-collaboratives
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Webinar on digital wallets at the URL 
  in the chat. 
  https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/7516333367875/WN_65D7yXQHRsmvGXB9jd9i2w
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fAdC1mBSP-p6zxXGRQNfSQNPe5MY6UZ6Tf676oY7BOk/edit#heading=h.iem8mwq6o4rn
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Open Skills Network Skills 
  Collaborative this week - see 
  https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/7516333367875/WN_65D7yXQHRsmvGXB9jd9i2w
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Correction to OSN link: 
  https://www.openskillsnetwork.org/skills-collaboratives

Topic: Final Charter Acceptance Discussion

<marty_reed> +2
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Comments on the VC Edu Charter in the 
  doc
Marty Reed: +1
Jon St. John: +1
Deb Everhart: +1
Sharon Leu: +1
David Ward: +1
Phil Barker: +1
Valerie Thomas: +1
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Charter vote: unanimous support/consent
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Charter approved

Topic: Use Cases

Kerri Lemoie: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-use-cases/
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Working on use cases at this point: 
  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-use-cases/
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-use-cases/
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Example of Use Case structure: 
  https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-use-cases/
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Working through example use cases: 
  starting with Issue First Aid Certificate. Not that far from what 
  is currently done.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Walking through the use case...
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Using a QR code contains the credential
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Pre-conditions - instructor working for 
  a company training first aid and Red Cross authorized
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Red Cross has a website to take student 
  info to generate a certificate that is embedded in a QR code and 
  made available to the student
<identitywoman> Static QR Codes are dangerous as a pattern - 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gkQu-mJP1ZFKXW5hEzp2S3-veGHQZNcKwbGZVaB27F8/edit
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Instructor verifies the student; 
  student passes the course is verified; this is uploaded and 
  website generates the certificate with relevant detail.
<deb_everhart> the uploaded information could include the CTID 
  for the course and the issuer for unique identifiers
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Certificate could be emailed to Pat, or 
  downloaded by the QR code.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Post-conditions - certificate received 
  with expiry;
<dmitri_z> @IdentityWoman -- +1, good point. QR code credentials 
  can be very useful, but it's definitely crucial to be aware of 
  the downsides and limitations.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Points of Failure: Website must be 
  available; Pat's gov ID not really checked and mis-issued to the 
  wrong person.
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YxBMpOOBQ7Z2dAu4gd3W_D6d1BcgQ1jOBrDZYnKByb4/edit
<deb_everhart> the PDF and the VC then can also include the CTIDs 
  and/or URI to more linked open data about the credential and 
  issuer
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> How is the DID verified?
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Link shared to paper 
  (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gkQu-mJP1ZFKXW5hEzp2S3-veGHQZNcKwbGZVaB27F8/edit) 
  regarding work done on covid certificates and how to get 
  certificates on paper for those needing that.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Issue with QR codes is that the code is 
  the credential. There isn't a differentiated verifiable 
  presentation.  Proof that sigs are there but not shared.  The 
  credential can be copied by anyone and hard to differentiate  
  from the origina.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> A bunch of problems with QR codes 
  becoming the norm (as in the draft paper at the link above)
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> There isn't anyway to tell a QR code it 
  "is" the credential, not individually verifiable at a given point 
  in time (at presentation of it).
<dmitri_z> IIW session/slide deck on QR Codes for Wallets: 
  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ki2VMtW1yZnWlomyeoYCIfrkLhb2Qb7Kb5sNQOiLYnY/edit 
   . See also: TruAge program for age verification (that include QR 
  codes) https://www.convenience.org/TruAge/Home
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Digital to digital interaction was the 
  original guide for verification processes. Never designed for the 
  instance of QR codes and the challenges that paper credentials 
  brings.
<eric_kuhn> We use QR codes to pass a URI that starts an issuance 
  or presentation flow through SIOPv2 and OIDC4VP
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Two links put in chat, one about QR 
  codes for wallets and some of their problems in digital 
  credential wallets. 
  (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ki2VMtW1yZnWlomyeoYCIfrkLhb2Qb7Kb5sNQOiLYnY/edit)
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Reminder Dimitri is working on DCC 
  digital wallet using QR codes for getting credentials into the 
  wallet and out of the wallet during presentation
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Two types of QR codes.  First, stuffing 
  the entire credential in the QR code, and second, one that has 
  just a URL,  that starts a credential request flow.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> The latter does address some of the 
  static vs. interactive problems
<identitywoman> like snacks without the s! (so cute)
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Dimitri is coordinator of TrueAge 
  project, National Association of Convenience Stores (NACS), with 
  underage purchase use case, using VCs to try and solve that.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> One of the components of that does use 
  QR codes.  The use of QR codes in that program pairs with 
  encrypted driver's licenses, photo IDs and other fraud detection 
  methods.
Jon St. John: +1 Dmitri
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Bare static QR codes can have some of 
  the problems mitigated.
<eric_kuhn> If they don't have a wallet, the 'credential' just 
  exists at the centralized issuer until they do.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> David - nothing in the QR code in the 
  initial use case is unique.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> The notion is to pair a QR code 
  credential is paired with other physical identity documents 
  (driver's license, etc.)
https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed-use-cases
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Matthias - issue of the deadline by 
  which VC-Edu need sthe use cases.  They are needed here for 
  VC-Edu by end of Nov.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> There is a name change planned for EBCI 
  (sp) but we'll address that another time.
<kerri_lemoie> Will follow up with Matthias re: EDCI name change
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> EK - use cases and QR codes discussion 
  is being co-mingled. The later is more about the initiation of 
  the transfer process of the issuance flows.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> QR codes can be used for an use case 
  initiation and flow.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> For VC-Edu he is thinking more about 
  what schemas are appropriate. Are we taking the schema of open 
  badges and putting it into a QR code and leave interoperability 
  to be solved later?
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Looking to use cases to help the 
  alignment of use cases to Verifiable Credential's data model so 
  that edu use cases and credentials can be used as the VC Data 
  Model requires.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> PDL - Edu use cases in some examples 
  use the data models of 'credentials' for things beyond the 
  assertion of a capability and more in the context of providing 
  guidance and on the progress through the achievement.
Matt Lisle: Re: picking my use cases up next week... sounds good 
  to me
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks @matt!
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Use case first aid certificate a proof 
  of a qualification.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Occupational qualification for work.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Goal of the primary actor is to qualify 
  for promotion/raise.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Actor has a QR cert of a VC; company 
  needs employee with that credential issued and valid;  company 
  recognizes the VC is appropriate to meet the work requirement
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q3Vl_IjCkKorKl4kb_Qw_RD4E2Bwe3W42Lq2k6Xf1oc/edit
<kerri_lemoie> (Link to the First Aid proof use case)
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Pat presents paper cert showing that 
  they have met std first aid qualification is valid; canned QR 
  code is recognized as representing the valid issuance;  the 
  system would recognize this into the HR system of the company, 
  and the HR system would qualify the person as meeting the 
  requirement for the raise and automatically update the payroll 
  process to bump his salary.
<deb_everhart> thank you!
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Points of Failure: pat has outdated 
  certificate; smartphone app cant' scan the QR code; HR system 
  cannot verify the VC on the cert; HR system does not recognize 
  the cert claimed in the VC as meeting the qualification; Pat's 
  name in the VC is not the same as the name of the employee in the 
  HR system.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Is this subject to the same cautions 
  re: QR codes as the last one?
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> Same cautions about the use of QR codes 
  as the last one.
<phil_long/t3/gu/csky...> (aka first aide credential issuance)