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Re: TTML2 wide review comment: styling

From: David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:40:12 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMjV-Fh6b=n5Fke4grqsGRJeuJYZyq1zCkeUpY-1AVA89q2wRw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
Cc: David Singer <singer@apple.com>, Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>, Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>, r12a <ishida@w3.org>
> Note that oblique != shear

My bad.  Thanks for correcting.

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:

> Note that oblique != shear; in particular, oblique is a face name (and
> thus a CSS font-style keyword) while shear is a real number that represents
> an angle in the interval (-pi/2,+pi/2). So the font designer picks two
> angles A,B (or maybe just one A) and generates outlines for A,B (or A and
> -A), then labels those as Oblique and Reverse Oblique. In the case of
> shear, the author picks an angle X (or a percentage of pi/2 as is in the
> case of TTML).
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:48 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>
>> OK
>>
>> it seems oblique has been discussed multiple times on the CSS list, see
>> for example thread starting <https://lists.w3.org/Archives
>> /Public/www-style/2013May/0252.html> but I am unsure of the conclusion.
>>
>> > On Oct 3, 2017, at 16:43 , Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:36 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>> > Though I am puzzled that I am not finding ‘shear’ or ‘oblique’
>> mentioned on <https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/>?
>> >
>> > I would speculate that the author's of jlreq focuses on uniquely JA
>> typographic features and assumed themselves it (shear) was not JA specific.
>> >
>> > In most page layout systems I've seen in CJK markets, this (shear) is a
>> generally supported feature.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Oct 3, 2017, at 16:33 , David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> On Oct 3, 2017, at 16:30 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> A real example of a TTML2 requirement that does not appear to map
>> into CSS is tts:fontShear.  Italics don't exist in Japanese. However, JA
>> subtitles uses font shearing to simulate italics; indicating, for example,
>> that the speaker is offscreen.  We consider oblique text to be an essential
>> JA subtitle feature that we see in the [Videotron] Lambda CAP JA subtitle
>> assets that we ingest,
>> > >
>> > > Yes, this seems a classic case of a feature that should be generally
>> supported in CSS for all (at least Japanese) text. I am puzzled that it is
>> not. Is fontShear more common in, or only used in, subtitles or is it
>> generally used in Japanese typography as well?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> From the translated LambdaCAP spec:
>> > >>
>> > >> <image.png>
>> > >>
>> > >> David
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:11 AM, David Singer <singer@apple.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Oct 2, 2017, at 4:52 , Andreas Tai <tai@irt.de> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Especially the second point leads to a much broader discussion
>> about the scope of web standards like HTML+CSS. I am sure that the subtitle
>> domain would be welcoming a better integration of their requirements in
>> CSS. This maybe a process that needs some more time and parallel
>> developments may only be a mid-term phenomenon of the conversion process. I
>> am convinced that next TPAC could help to speed the process with productive
>> discussions and group agreements.
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> I agree; I think the CSS group has shown themselves very responsive,
>> and active in improvements. If something is needed in the way we style for
>> any market, then let’s get that feature into the lingua franca we have,
>> i.,e. CSS/HTML, and then it can be uniformly adopted and implemented.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> David Singer
>> > >> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > David Singer
>> > > Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>> >
>> > David Singer
>> > Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> David Singer
>> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 4 October 2017 05:40:36 UTC

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