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Re: TTML2 wide review comment: styling

From: Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 23:49:35 -0600
Message-ID: <CACQ=j+cWpy8diuh5GNHpLn5t+RhMFEV8SnOPz00i4Y4G3POfnQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com>
Cc: David Singer <singer@apple.com>, Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>, Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>, r12a <ishida@w3.org>
Actually, I was responding to David Singer regarding the CSS WG having
discussed oblique. While that is true, I don't know whether they have
discussed shear.

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 11:40 PM, David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:

> > Note that oblique != shear
>
> My bad.  Thanks for correcting.
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>
>> Note that oblique != shear; in particular, oblique is a face name (and
>> thus a CSS font-style keyword) while shear is a real number that represents
>> an angle in the interval (-pi/2,+pi/2). So the font designer picks two
>> angles A,B (or maybe just one A) and generates outlines for A,B (or A and
>> -A), then labels those as Oblique and Reverse Oblique. In the case of
>> shear, the author picks an angle X (or a percentage of pi/2 as is in the
>> case of TTML).
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:48 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>>
>>> OK
>>>
>>> it seems oblique has been discussed multiple times on the CSS list, see
>>> for example thread starting <https://lists.w3.org/Archives
>>> /Public/www-style/2013May/0252.html> but I am unsure of the conclusion.
>>>
>>> > On Oct 3, 2017, at 16:43 , Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:36 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>>> > Though I am puzzled that I am not finding ‘shear’ or ‘oblique’
>>> mentioned on <https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/>?
>>> >
>>> > I would speculate that the author's of jlreq focuses on uniquely JA
>>> typographic features and assumed themselves it (shear) was not JA specific.
>>> >
>>> > In most page layout systems I've seen in CJK markets, this (shear) is
>>> a generally supported feature.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > On Oct 3, 2017, at 16:33 , David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >> On Oct 3, 2017, at 16:30 , David Ronca <dronca@netflix.com> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> A real example of a TTML2 requirement that does not appear to map
>>> into CSS is tts:fontShear.  Italics don't exist in Japanese. However, JA
>>> subtitles uses font shearing to simulate italics; indicating, for example,
>>> that the speaker is offscreen.  We consider oblique text to be an essential
>>> JA subtitle feature that we see in the [Videotron] Lambda CAP JA subtitle
>>> assets that we ingest,
>>> > >
>>> > > Yes, this seems a classic case of a feature that should be generally
>>> supported in CSS for all (at least Japanese) text. I am puzzled that it is
>>> not. Is fontShear more common in, or only used in, subtitles or is it
>>> generally used in Japanese typography as well?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >>
>>> > >> From the translated LambdaCAP spec:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> <image.png>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> David
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:11 AM, David Singer <singer@apple.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>> On Oct 2, 2017, at 4:52 , Andreas Tai <tai@irt.de> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Especially the second point leads to a much broader discussion
>>> about the scope of web standards like HTML+CSS. I am sure that the subtitle
>>> domain would be welcoming a better integration of their requirements in
>>> CSS. This maybe a process that needs some more time and parallel
>>> developments may only be a mid-term phenomenon of the conversion process. I
>>> am convinced that next TPAC could help to speed the process with productive
>>> discussions and group agreements.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I agree; I think the CSS group has shown themselves very
>>> responsive, and active in improvements. If something is needed in the way
>>> we style for any market, then let’s get that feature into the lingua franca
>>> we have, i.,e. CSS/HTML, and then it can be uniformly adopted and
>>> implemented.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> David Singer
>>> > >> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > > David Singer
>>> > > Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>> >
>>> > David Singer
>>> > Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> David Singer
>>> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 4 October 2017 05:50:19 UTC

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