Re: f2f wrap up & next steps

Mike,

This is a "recommend' spec – nothing about it is enforceable, not the
default setting, not the server settings, not anything. You can sit here for
the next year and debate and argue all the twists you want. Nobody cares
what the default is – the EU needs a privacy setting turned on by default,
and they need it now. Microsoft just gave it to them. The regulators will do
the rest.

RE: Codification has been ongoing for a couple of years so nothing that
transpires in this group can change that process.

Really – and you're now suggesting that we start adding headers. And exactly
what will those be? Another 6 months of endless debates will ensue, and in
the meantime the ONLY header that really has an impact (DNT:1) is shipping.

Your insults are just that – insults. At some point you're going to have to
ship something. 22 issues can resolved in the less than 30 days if there is
a commitment to the process. But you can always pin the blame on me if you
can't get the job done, it's the easy way out.




Peter
___________________________________
Peter J. Cranstone
720.663.1752


From:  Mike Zaneis <mike@iab.net>
Date:  Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:57 PM
To:  Peter Cranstone <peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
Cc:  "ifette@google.com" <ifette@google.com>, Chris Mejia
<chris.mejia@iab.net>, Lauren Gelman <gelman@blurryedge.com>, Alan Chapell
<achapell@chapellassociates.com>, "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair"
<aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3 Tracking <public-tracking@w3.org>, Brendan
Riordan-Butterworth <Brendan@iab.net>, Marc Groman - NAI
<mgroman@networkadvertising.org>, David Wainberg - NAI
<david@networkadvertising.org>
Subject:  Re: f2f wrap up & next steps

> Peter,
> 
> After this comment I will join Ian in ignoring your comments since they are
> not based in reality any longer. First, thank you for inventing standards
> processes, but the W3C staff and our Co-chairs likewise discovered these about
> 10 months ago. I assume we will continue to adhere to their processes.
> 
> Second, your ignorance of the law is astounding. Maybe you missed it, but the
> EU already has a law in place. Codification has been ongoing for a couple of
> years so nothing that transpires in this group can change that process.
> 
> Lastly, again, maybe you missed the dozens of emails and news articles
> covering this, but the group has previously reached consensus on the fact that
> default "on" by browsers will be non-compliant with any W3C standard.  You are
> free to continue to argue this point but I think we all know what the
> definition of insanity is.
> 
> Feel free to continue to argue with yourself.
> 
> Mike Zaneis 
> SVP & General Counsel, IAB
> (202) 253-1466
> 
> On Jun 27, 2012, at 7:15 PM, "Peter Cranstone" <peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Ian,
>> 
>> What you continue to miss is actually shipping a working spec. There are 22
>> issues on the spec. How about we start at the top and work down. How about we
>> put a timeline on those "issues" so we have a "forcing event" vs. lets sit in
>> these endless debates.
>> 
>> As for the exception mechanism – ok, lets solve that one. You work for a
>> browser company, how about you start the ball rolling and give us some ways
>> that Chrome can start supporting the exception mechanism. Of course they do
>> actually need to support the three state mechanism first.
>> 
>> Microsoft just accelerated the entire spec by announcing that Windows 8 will
>> ship with DNT turned on "by default". That is ALL the EU needs to start
>> enforcing a Do Not Track policy. Microsoft just effectively decouple the
>> whole "technology vs. policy" debate and gave themselves a HUGE competitive
>> advantage over every other browser.
>> 
>> The second they ship, Chrome et al is in second place. Microsoft just took
>> the lead in Privacy – and you let them.
>> 
>> 
>> Peter
>> ___________________________________
>> Peter J. Cranstone
>> 720.663.1752
>> 
>> 
>> From: "Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)" < <mailto:ifette@google.com>
>> ifette@google.com>
>> Reply-To: < <mailto:ifette@google.com> ifette@google.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:01 PM
>> To: Peter Cranstone < <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>> peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Mike Zaneis < <mailto:mike@iab.net> mike@iab.net>, Chris Mejia <
>> <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net> chris.mejia@iab.net>, Lauren Gelman <
>> <mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com> gelman@blurryedge.com>, Alan Chapell <
>> <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com> achapell@chapellassociates.com>,
>> "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair" < <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com>
>> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3 Tracking < <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>
>> public-tracking@w3.org>, Brendan Riordan-Butterworth <
>> <mailto:Brendan@iab.net> Brendan@iab.net>, Marc Groman - NAI <
>> <mailto:mgroman@networkadvertising.org> mgroman@networkadvertising.org>,
>> David Wainberg - NAI < <mailto:david@networkadvertising.org>
>> david@networkadvertising.org>
>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>> 
>>> Peter, 
>>> 
>>> We have discussed that the timeline as it is exists is not an accurate
>>> reflection of the state of the WG. That was the timeline put forth when the
>>> group was formed. Had you bothered to join the group and attend the f2f, I'm
>>> sure you would realize that many people have been discussing what an updated
>>> timeline would look like, and that we have open issues around "what are our
>>> criteria for CR". We probably spent between a half hour and an hour on day 1
>>> discussing this issue alone.
>>> 
>>> Again, you continue to ignore half the spec (the exception mechanism, which
>>> provides an API for sites to call and which browsers are supposed to
>>> remember the user's decision from) which is certainly a part of "testing"
>>> any real deployment.
>>> 
>>> I honestly don't know why I am bothering to reply to you. You continue to
>>> ignore what people say, think you're the first person to think any of this
>>> up, and seem to have a knack for turning conversations into unproductive
>>> black holes. I'm going to escape the gravitational field whilst I can.
>>> 
>>> -Ian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Peter Cranstone <
>>> <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com> peter.cranstone@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Mike,
>>>> 
>>>> Have you looked at the timeline that Aleecia put forward? How can you put
>>>> forward a timeline that is so out of touch with reality? I have no idea.
>>>> I've read all the f2f meeting notes, checked the timeline, spoken with Rigo
>>>> regarding the DNT header values and so you can imagine that reading your
>>>> email is now a complete surprise to me. I've known Aleecia for awhile now
>>>> and she's incredibly detailed and accurate.
>>>> 
>>>> So how can it (the timeline) be so far out of touch with what you're
>>>> suggesting below? And why has no one else other than me pointed out why we
>>>> all need to reset our expectation. Reset them to what?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Peter
>>>> ___________________________________
>>>> Peter J. Cranstone
>>>> 720.663.1752 <tel:720.663.1752>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Mike Zaneis < <mailto:mike@iab.net> mike@iab.net>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:06 PM
>>>> To: " <mailto:ifette@google.com> ifette@google.com" <
>>>> <mailto:ifette@google.com> ifette@google.com>, Peter Cranstone <
>>>> <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com> peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Chris Mejia < <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net> chris.mejia@iab.net>, Lauren
>>>> Gelman < <mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com> gelman@blurryedge.com>, Alan
>>>> Chapell < <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>> achapell@chapellassociates.com>, "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair" <
>>>> <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3 Tracking <
>>>> <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> public-tracking@w3.org>, Brendan
>>>> Riordan-Butterworth < <mailto:Brendan@iab.net> Brendan@iab.net>, Marc
>>>> Groman - NAI < <mailto:mgroman@networkadvertising.org>
>>>> mgroman@networkadvertising.org>, David Wainberg - NAI <
>>>> <mailto:david@networkadvertising.org> david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Subject: RE: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>> 
>>>>> To continue with Ian’s list:
>>>>>  
>>>>> No browsers currently offer the ability to send DNT: 0, which is a
>>>>> critical element of the response process
>>>>> We had a long discussion at the face to face meeting about how such
>>>>> choices would be offered, so this provision needs to be developed in the
>>>>> spec
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> Peter, I think you need to get a handle on the working group process and
>>>>> its status.  You state that we are a few days away from issuing a last
>>>>> call document(s).  I won’t put a time frame on when this group will come
>>>>> to consensus around a document, but we have openly talked about another
>>>>> face to face meeting in the September time frame, so you should readjust
>>>>> your expectations like the rest of us have.
>>>>>  
>>>>> I don’t think it is helpful to berate the group about implementation,
>>>>> technology mandates, or unrealistic timeframes and deadlines.  Again, I do
>>>>> not know if you are out of touch with the working group because you are
>>>>> relatively new or because you were not at the last face to face meeting,
>>>>> but either way none of this helps focus our discussion, nor does it
>>>>> increase buy in from companies.  Let’s be transparent and accurate, which
>>>>> is the only way we will continue to advance the process.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Mike Zaneis
>>>>> 
>>>>> SVP & General Counsel
>>>>> Interactive Advertising Bureau
>>>>> (202) 253-1466 <tel:%28202%29%20253-1466>
>>>>>  
>>>>> Follow me on Twitter @mikezaneis
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> From: Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) [ <mailto:ifette@google.com>
>>>>> mailto:ifette@google.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:40 PM
>>>>> To: Peter Cranstone
>>>>> Cc: Mike Zaneis; Chris Mejia; Lauren Gelman; Alan Chapell; Aleecia M.
>>>>> McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair; W3C DNT Working Group Mailing List; Brendan
>>>>> Riordan-Butterworth; Marc Groman - NAI; David Wainberg - NAI
>>>>> 
>>>>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>  
>>>>> The spec speaks to a heck of a lot more than sending 1/0/unset. There's
>>>>> the mechanism for requesting exceptions, there's response codes from the
>>>>> server. Saying "you send 0/1 from the browser and you're done" is
>>>>> disingenuous.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Peter Cranstone <
>>>>> <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com> peter.cranstone@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> The spec talks to sending 1, 0 and unset. Nothing has changed there for
>>>>> months and months. All major browsers (except one) currently support it.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> So what has changed? Why don't you tell us, and then explain why we cannot
>>>>> yet begin to implement it? It's very convenient to say that a spec is a
>>>>> "moving target" and yet nobody explains what the moving target is or why
>>>>> it keeps moving.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why don't we start with a real list of what remains to be done to complete
>>>>> the implementation of the spec. From Aleecia's list the other day (
>>>>> <http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/>
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/) we're a few days away from
>>>>> last call. Ignoring the missing (or maybe not) Call for Implementation
>>>>> we're one month a way from a "Call for Review".
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> So – in summary we're roughly 45 days away from shipping this spec out the
>>>>> door and about 120 days from a final recommendation. Exactly how far off
>>>>> can this spec be?
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Where's the final to do list – absent that all I see is delaying tactics.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter
>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>> Peter J. Cranstone
>>>>> 720.663.1752 <tel:720.663.1752>
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Mike Zaneis < <mailto:mike@iab.net> mike@iab.net>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:19 PM
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> To: Peter Cranstone < <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>>>>> peter.cranstone@gmail.com>, Chris Mejia < <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>> chris.mejia@iab.net>, Lauren Gelman < <mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>> gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>> Cc: Alan Chapell < <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>>> achapell@chapellassociates.com>, "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair" <
>>>>> <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3 Tracking <
>>>>> <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> public-tracking@w3.org>, Brendan
>>>>> Riordan-Butterworth < <mailto:Brendan@iab.net> Brendan@iab.net>, Marc
>>>>> Groman - NAI < <mailto:mgroman@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>> mgroman@networkadvertising.org>, David Wainberg - NAI <
>>>>> <mailto:david@networkadvertising.org> david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>> Subject: RE: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter, 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> You are right, you can implement the “current state of the spec”.
>>>>>> However, that spec is changing.  The technological implementation in that
>>>>>> spec is changing, per our hours of discussion last week.  I’m sorry you
>>>>>> missed the meeting last week, but you should not misrepresent the facts
>>>>>> just because you are not aware of them or choose to ignore them.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mike Zaneis
>>>>>> SVP & General Counsel
>>>>>> Interactive Advertising Bureau
>>>>>> (202) 253-1466 <tel:%28202%29%20253-1466>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter @mikezaneis
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: Peter Cranstone [ <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>>>>>> mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:16 PM
>>>>>> To: Mike Zaneis; Chris Mejia; Lauren Gelman
>>>>>> Cc: Alan Chapell; Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair; W3C DNT Working
>>>>>> Group Mailing List; Brendan Riordan-Butterworth; Marc Groman - NAI; David
>>>>>> Wainberg - NAI
>>>>>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I disagree. You can implement the current state of the spec this
>>>>>> afternoon. The W3 could not have made this spec any simpler than a 1, 0
>>>>>> or unset (and those headers haven't changed forever). There can only be
>>>>>> three values to look for. That's the no brainer part.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What you cannot know is the legal (policy) ramifications are from not
>>>>>> complying correctly with what you just implemented.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For example – I look for a header, I see the header, I comply with the
>>>>>> header – what happens next if someone wants to audit what I just did?
>>>>>> What happens if somehow my code has bugs in it and instead of complying
>>>>>> with a 1 header I inadvertently send a 0 to all the third parties and
>>>>>> violate someone's privacy. What kind of legal costs could I incur from
>>>>>> not being perfectly compliant?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tech has never been the issue on this spec – because it's so simple. It's
>>>>>> just been used as an excuse to delay adding privacy controls for a
>>>>>> consumer which they may or may not "choose" to use. It's now becoming a
>>>>>> marketing/legal problem.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>>> Peter J. Cranstone
>>>>>> 720.663.1752 <tel:720.663.1752>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: Mike Zaneis < <mailto:mike@iab.net> mike@iab.net>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:07 PM
>>>>>> To: Peter Cranstone < <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>>>>>> peter.cranstone@gmail.com>, Chris Mejia < <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>>> chris.mejia@iab.net>, Lauren Gelman < <mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>>> gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Alan Chapell < <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>>>> achapell@chapellassociates.com>, "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair"
>>>>>> < <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3 Tracking <
>>>>>> <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> public-tracking@w3.org>, Brendan
>>>>>> Riordan-Butterworth < <mailto:Brendan@iab.net> Brendan@iab.net>, Marc
>>>>>> Groman - NAI < <mailto:mgroman@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>>> mgroman@networkadvertising.org>, David Wainberg - NAI <
>>>>>> <mailto:david@networkadvertising.org> david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don’t think we need to get into a protracted debate about this issue.
>>>>>>> There is no W3C spec at this time, either a technical spec or a
>>>>>>> compliance spec.  These documents change on a weekly basis and will
>>>>>>> continue to do so until they are completed.  If a company wants to
>>>>>>> commit publically to following a document that is in a constant state of
>>>>>>> flux, that is their choice and the IAB will not try to dissuade them
>>>>>>> from doing so.  However, we will educate our members about the actual
>>>>>>> state of play with the W3C documents, especially when there is messaging
>>>>>>> that indicates the technical spec is complete and simple to implement,
>>>>>>> neither of which is true (by definition it cannot be simple to implement
>>>>>>> a spec that is always subject to change).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> In any case, the IAB does not provide legal advice and no messaging done
>>>>>>> in this group should be construed as such.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mike Zaneis
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> SVP & General Counsel
>>>>>>> Interactive Advertising Bureau
>>>>>>> (202) 253-1466 <tel:%28202%29%20253-1466>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter @mikezaneis
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Peter Cranstone [ <mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:45 PM
>>>>>>> To: Chris Mejia; Lauren Gelman
>>>>>>> Cc: Alan Chapell; Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair; W3C DNT Working
>>>>>>> Group Mailing List; Mike Zaneis; Brendan Riordan-Butterworth; Marc
>>>>>>> Groman - NAI; David Wainberg - NAI
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Here's the technology part of the spec.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Browser sends DNT:1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Server accepts DNT: 1 (reads incoming header)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Server sets a flag on the data for storage compliance reasons
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Technology issues are now over. It would just take few lines of code to
>>>>>>> read that incoming header (Mod_DNT
>>>>>>> <http://www.5o9mm.com/mod_dnt_test_1.php>  already does it, you can seen
>>>>>>> instantly if the header is present. Probably took us an hour.)
>>>>>>> Everything that happens from that point on (costs, loss or gain in
>>>>>>> revenue, compliance etc.) is now governed by policy.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> That's where things are going to get complicated regardless of how DNT
>>>>>>> is implemented from a technology standpoint.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>>>> Peter J. Cranstone
>>>>>>> 720.663.1752 <tel:720.663.1752>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Chris Mejia < <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net> chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:36 AM
>>>>>>> To: Lauren Gelman < <mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>>>> gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Alan Chapell < <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>>>>> achapell@chapellassociates.com>, "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair"
>>>>>>> < <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3 Tracking <
>>>>>>> <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> public-tracking@w3.org>, Mike Zaneis <
>>>>>>> <mailto:mike@iab.net> mike@iab.net>, Brendan Riordan-Butterworth <
>>>>>>> <mailto:Brendan@iab.net> Brendan@iab.net>, Marc Groman - NAI <
>>>>>>> <mailto:mgroman@networkadvertising.org> mgroman@networkadvertising.org>,
>>>>>>> David Wainberg - NAI < <mailto:david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>>>> david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>>> Resent-From: W3 Tracking < <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>
>>>>>>> public-tracking@w3.org>
>>>>>>> Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:37:30 +0000
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to clarify, I have not provided any "legal advise" nor would I ever
>>>>>>> propose to do so; I'm not a lawyer or even a public policy expert, I'm a
>>>>>>> technologist.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I simply balanced the assertion (from Aleecia's message: "I believe we
>>>>>>> will be far enough along for many potential early adopters to begin
>>>>>>> their work on implementations without risk of redoing major work") that
>>>>>>> companies should proceed with implementing a specification that is not
>>>>>>> final, with reasonable questions and points to consider before doing so.
>>>>>>> Considering all points is not only fair, it's a responsible business
>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I also have not proposed that companies should not contemplate testing.
>>>>>>> Testing and actual implementation are two different things.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chris Mejia | Digital Supply Chain Solutions | Ad Technology Group |
>>>>>>> Interactive Advertising Bureau - IAB |  <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>>>> chris.mejia@iab.net |
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Lauren Gelman < <mailto:gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>>>> gelman@blurryedge.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:23:10 -0700
>>>>>>> To: Chris Mejia - IAB < <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>>>> chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: Alan Chapell < <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>>>>> achapell@chapellassociates.com>, "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair"
>>>>>>> < <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3C DNT Working
>>>>>>> Group Mailing List < <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>
>>>>>>> public-tracking@w3.org>, Mike Zaneis - IAB < <mailto:mike@iab.net>
>>>>>>> mike@iab.net>, Brendan Riordan-Butterworth - IAB <
>>>>>>> <mailto:brendan@iab.net> brendan@iab.net>, Marc Groman - NAI <
>>>>>>> <mailto:mgroman@networkadvertising.org> mgroman@networkadvertising.org>,
>>>>>>> David Wainberg - NAI < <mailto:david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>>>> david@networkadvertising.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is inappropriate to offer this kind of generalized legal advise on
>>>>>>> this list.  It is up to individual businesses to decide how they want to
>>>>>>> compete. It is these scare tactics that have made privacy policies
>>>>>>> ineffective and created the demand for DNT.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is perfectly plausible to write a disclosure on any topic that
>>>>>>> accurately informs a user of a company's policies and the costs/benefits
>>>>>>> involved and does not create unreasonable risk to the business.  I am
>>>>>>> available to provide references to people who are happy to work with
>>>>>>> companies who want to "do the right thing."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And frankly, it is just insincere to criticize DNT because it has not
>>>>>>> been tested in large scale implementation and simultaneously warn
>>>>>>> companies not to attempt large scale implementations because DNT has not
>>>>>>> been finalized.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Lauren Gelman
>>>>>>> BlurryEdge Strategies
>>>>>>> 415-627-8512 <tel:415-627-8512>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Chris Mejia wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well written Alan, thank you.  I'd like to further highlight one very
>>>>>>> important point you made below:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "Not to mention that any public representation that one is complying
>>>>>>> with DNT may subject a company to regulatory scrutiny."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any company contemplating public committal to "honoring" DNT headers at
>>>>>>> this stage, before a specification has been agreed to, finalized and
>>>>>>> published, should carefully consider a few important points:
>>>>>>> * The DNT specification is not complete/final.  Finalization may be many
>>>>>>> months away, and there is always a possibility that it is never
>>>>>>> finalized (i.e. the spec creation could be abandoned pursuant to
>>>>>>> intellectual property claims, for example).  Although we are all working
>>>>>>> to a positive outcome, companies should consider ALL possible outcomes
>>>>>>> before committing.
>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>> * Committing your adherence publicly to a "moving target" specification
>>>>>>> may bind/expose your company later to requirements that may not be
>>>>>>> achievable once the specification is finalized.  In other words, why
>>>>>>> would you commit to something when you don't know what that something
>>>>>>> will be?  What if the technical requirements of the final spec are not
>>>>>>> achievable, are cost prohibitive and/or not friendly to your business
>>>>>>> model and thus your longevity as a company?  What if adherence to the
>>>>>>> final specification means a significant drop in revenue for your
>>>>>>> company?
>>>>>>> * Be sure that at least here in the US, and possibly elsewhere,
>>>>>>> regulatory authorities will likely exercise all their power to ensure
>>>>>>> that you remain in compliance with the final specification, even though
>>>>>>> you may have only committed to a preliminary version.  In bringing
>>>>>>> action against your company, they may cite reasonable consumer
>>>>>>> expectations based on the final specification and/or market confusion if
>>>>>>> you don't elect to comply with the full specification later, having
>>>>>>> publicly committed to it previously.
>>>>>>> All in all, while it might seem like you are "doing the right thing" or
>>>>>>> "getting ahead of the game" by committing early to the unfinished
>>>>>>> specification, doing so may put your company at significant risk down
>>>>>>> the line.  Please make this decision carefully, and ensure you are well
>>>>>>> informed before committing.  The IAB, DAA, NAI and OPA are industry
>>>>>>> resources you may want to consult during your decision making process.
>>>>>>> Again, we are all interested in protecting consumer privacy.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chris Mejia, IAB
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chris Mejia | Digital Supply Chain Solutions | Ad Technology Group |
>>>>>>> Interactive Advertising Bureau - IAB |  <mailto:chris.mejia@iab.net>
>>>>>>> chris.mejia@iab.net |
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Alan Chapell < <mailto:achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>>>>> achapell@chapellassociates.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:34:35 -0400
>>>>>>> To: "Aleecia M. McDonald - W3C WG Co-Chair" <
>>>>>>> <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com>, W3C DNT Working Group
>>>>>>> Mailing List < <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> public-tracking@w3.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: f2f wrap up & next steps
>>>>>>> Resent-From: W3C DNT Working Group Mailing List <
>>>>>>> <mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> public-tracking@w3.org>
>>>>>>> Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:35:35 +0000
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks Aleecia.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm sure this wasn't your intent, but I'd caution the group against
>>>>>>> creating the impression that the marketplace should look to implement
>>>>>>> right now given that we haven't defined many of the key terms at this
>>>>>>> point. While it may make sense for some companies to expiriment and look
>>>>>>> through documentation as we create it, the reality is that many small to
>>>>>>> mid-sized companies may not have the resources to pour into
>>>>>>> understanding let along implementing a document where key terms are
>>>>>>> still in flux. Not to mention that any public representation that one is
>>>>>>> complying with DNT may subject a company to regulatory scrutiny.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, I wanted to circle back regarding the group's charter. Thomas
>>>>>>> mentioned something about rechartering during the meeting, but I hadn't
>>>>>>> heard anything further. I'm wondering if this is an appropriate
>>>>>>> opportunity to re-evaluate what we're really trying to accomplish in
>>>>>>> this group ­ as there seemed to be a myriad of opinions raised to that
>>>>>>> effect in Bellevue. And to be clear, I'm not necessarily advocating
>>>>>>> specific changes to the charter. In any event, if the W3C is working
>>>>>>> under the assumption that rechartering should automatically take place
>>>>>>> without at least some group discussion, I would see that as problematic.
>>>>>>> I'm sure that's not the case. So, I'm simply asking if this will be on
>>>>>>> the July 11 agenda? I believe the charter expires in July, correct?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Alan Chapell
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chapell & Associates
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 6/25/12 11:17 PM, "Aleecia M. McDonald" <
>>>>>>> <mailto:aleecia@aleecia.com> aleecia@aleecia.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you to the 60+ people who attended the Seattle meeting, many of
>>>>>>> whom flew great distances to make it. We walked in with two Compliance
>>>>>>> proposals that were far apart, with neither able to reach consensus in
>>>>>>> the form it was in. As a group we decided we needed to move the
>>>>>>> proposals closer to the center, and we did just that. We walked out with
>>>>>>> an overall direction that everyone can live with for permitted business
>>>>>>> uses, including proposed text for two of the five we discussed, and
>>>>>>> great new ideas. We can now see the outline what DNT will look like and
>>>>>>> where we need to go. We took up some of the most contentious remaining
>>>>>>> issues, on purpose, and we made solid progress on the hardest stuff.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am particularly pleased with proposals that allow business uses to
>>>>>>> continue while improving privacy, by doing things a little differently
>>>>>>> with a low burden for implementation. That's a home run. That's exactly
>>>>>>> what we are looking for, the point where everyone can live with the
>>>>>>> outcome. That is the hope and promise for DNT, and what we are all
>>>>>>> working so hard to realize. We still have a lot to do. There are many
>>>>>>> details to fit into place, some of them quite important to some
>>>>>>> stakeholders. We will work through them. I was encouraged hearing people
>>>>>>> say, "This is not what I would choose, but I can live with it in order
>>>>>>> to move forward." Well done. That's how consensus happens.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On TPE, editors will incorporate decisions that came out of the final
>>>>>>> day, and then we will review the final text as a group to ensure all is
>>>>>>> as agreed. Similarly on Compliance, the editors will write a strawman
>>>>>>> proposal that incorporates text from four different documents (existing
>>>>>>> draft, proposed combination draft, proposal from Shane et al, proposal
>>>>>>> from Jonathan et al.) That strawman is already well in progress thanks
>>>>>>> to our talented editors. My hope is for a Compliance strawman draft by
>>>>>>> the week of July 2. As a group, we will then review all text that has
>>>>>>> not had consensus (that is, no need to re-review text that was already
>>>>>>> agreed upon in prior drafts, nor the text we agreed upon while Nick
>>>>>>> live-edited during the Seattle meeting.) We need to publish new drafts
>>>>>>> soon, since it has been several months since our last publications. We
>>>>>>> will evaluate the state of the drafts to see if we are ready to ask for
>>>>>>> input as a First Last Call document with major issues resolved, or if we
>>>>>>> are looking at a Third Public Working Draft.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Either way, I believe we will be far enough along for many potential
>>>>>>> early adopters to begin their work on implementations without risk of
>>>>>>> redoing major work, provided we are very clear about where work remains
>>>>>>> in flux. To do that well, as Ian points out, we will need at least one
>>>>>>> user agent developing a compliant implementation so we can test
>>>>>>> interoperability. We have already worked through about half of the
>>>>>>> issues on user agent compliance with one conference call and an hour in
>>>>>>> Seattle. We'll work through the rest in the fairly near term. After we
>>>>>>> review the strawman draft, if you are planning on doing an
>>>>>>> implementation soon and there are specific unresolved Compliance issues 
>>>>>>> that would get in your way, I'm open to prioritizing them earlier. Just 
>>>>>>> let me know so I can make informed scheduling trade offs.  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Our next face-to-face meeting will be in Europe, likely in mid- to late 
>>>>>>> September. If you have a location that can handle about 70 people in 
>>>>>>> that time frame for three days, please let us know the details. We have 
>>>>>>> a generous standing offer to go back to Brussels, though we try to hold 
>>>>>>> meetings in varied locations to distribute the travel burden. Once we 
>>>>>>> know our options we will use an online Doodle poll to understand which 
>>>>>>> possibilities allow the greatest number of TPWG members to attend, just 
>>>>>>> as we have done for past meetings. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Coming soon...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - a new mailing list to receive external comments. By the time we get 
>>>>>>> out of Last Call, we'll have a few of those, plus comments from 
>>>>>>> implementations.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - Rigo will begin to organize the first draft of the Global 
>>>>>>> Considerations document, which will be non-normative. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To me, it felt like Seattle was the bumpiest f2f I've co-chaired. I am 
>>>>>>> thrilled to have new voices and a greater breadth of stakeholders, but 
>>>>>>> it is challenging with different levels of understanding of the work to 
>>>>>>> date. Next time, perhaps we need a mandatory in person pre-meeting for 
>>>>>>> anyone who has not attended a prior f2f. It's also hard to make progress 
>>>>>>> with the sheer number of people. I didn't scale with the group size as 
>>>>>>> well as I'd like. I have some ideas and will keep thinking about that. 
>>>>>>> And I made it harder on all of us than it had to be because I started to 
>>>>>>> get frustrated. We'd spent two months with radically different proposals 
>>>>>>> and movement by inches when we needed yards. What I learned last week is 
>>>>>>> to have more faith in the ability of the full group to get hard things 
>>>>>>> done, and to trust the process. We're making progress, moving toward the 
>>>>>>> middle, and as Ed points out, we can see where the final compromise 
>>>>>>> needs to be. Let's make it happen. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you again to Microsoft for the space, and for Facebook, Google, 
>>>>>>> and Yahoo! for hosting financially and feeding us. A special warm thank 
>>>>>>> you to JC for taking great care of us in his beautiful city of Seattle. 
>>>>>>> If you scribed last week - thank you! If you didn't - be ready to do so 
>>>>>>> an upcoming call. :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Aleecia
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>  
>> 
>