- From: Shane Wiley <wileys@yahoo-inc.com>
- Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:07:29 -0700
- To: Jonathan Mayer <jmayer@stanford.edu>
- CC: Tamir Israel <tisrael@cippic.ca>, Rigo Wenning <rigo@w3.org>, "public-tracking@w3.org" <public-tracking@w3.org>, "rob@blaeu.com" <rob@blaeu.com>, Kimon Zorbas <vp@iabeurope.eu>, "ifette@google.com" <ifette@google.com>, "JC Cannon (Microsoft)" <jccannon@microsoft.com>
- Message-ID: <63294A1959410048A33AEE161379C8023D18786A98@SP2-EX07VS02.ds.corp.yahoo.com>
Jonathan, I ask only to understand their perspectives – nothing more. Hopefully everyone will speak up in Seattle so we can better understand the various perspectives. Much like you, we are also working with all of the various viewpoint stakeholders and have support for our proposal from their collective perspectives (at least those shared to date which is why I’m trying to learn more). To call collaboration to understand one another’s perspectives as possibly “unfair competition” is an amazingly farfetched overreach , even from you (although not unsurprising). I hope your threats of this nature don’t scare away more open collaboration but perhaps that was your aim. - Shane From: Jonathan Mayer [mailto:jmayer@stanford.edu] Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:51 PM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Tamir Israel; Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org; rob@blaeu.com; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane, As I explained in my initial note: We have received valuable feedback from a number of participant viewpoints, including browser vendors, advertising companies, analytics services, social networks, policymakers, consumer groups, and researchers. Out of respect for the candid nature of those ongoing conversations, we leave it to stakeholders to volunteer their contributions to and views on this proposal. I would add that more than one advertising company expressed concern about possible retaliation if they broke away from the industry trade groups. I'll leave it to regulators to decide if the industry's practices constitute unfair competition. Jonathan On Sunday, June 17, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Shane Wiley wrote: Jonathan, Continue to disagree (on many levels). Could you please name those in the online advertising industry that are supportive of the proposal you shared with the WG? Thank you, - Shane From: Jonathan Mayer [mailto:jmayer@stanford.edu] Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:42 PM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Tamir Israel; Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane, You and Roy have been vocal in your objections to the EFF/Mozilla/Stanford compromise proposal. I'm disappointed, though given your inflexibility throughout this process, entirely unsurprised. That said, you do not speak for the online advertising industry. Many companies have been more willing to countenance constructive compromise. Your conclusion that advertising industry participants have "mostly rejected" the proposal is inaccurate. Jonathan On Sunday, June 17, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Shane Wiley wrote: Tamir, Jonathan's proposal does attempt to address this point but many in the room feel this should be left to local law. Justin Brookman and I took a pass at this language but it shifted to becoming overly prescriptive (legislating via tech standard) so many in the WG asked for local law to determine. I would suggest this conversation be extracted from Jonathan's proposal to be handled separately as the rest of proposal has been mostly rejected by those in the WG that are intended to implement DNT in the real-world (on the 1st party/3rd party side). More to come in Seattle... - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 12:19 PM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane -- I am not remotely attempting doing so. As far back as I can see, the spec was going to put conditions on the means by which out of band consent can be sought. Jonathan et al's proposal is: 1. Actual presentation: The choice mechanism MUST be actually presented to the user. It MUST NOT be on a linked page, such as a terms of service or privacy policy. 2. Clear terms: The choice mechanism MUST use clear, non-confusing terminology. 3. Independent choice: The choice mechanism MUST be presented independent of other choices. It MUST NOT be bundled with other user preferences. 4. No default permission: The choice mechanism MUST NOT have the user permission preference selected by default. On 6/17/2012 3:16 PM, Shane Wiley wrote: Tamir, That's up to local laws to determine. Please do not attempt to legislate via W3C tech standard. - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 12:14 PM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane -- Out of band consent *does* trump DNT-1. We are now trying to define the parameters by which out of band consent can be sought. Best, Tamir On 6/17/2012 3:11 PM, Shane Wiley wrote: Tamir, Out-of-band consent trumps DNT. We've been repeating this mantra for over a year now - becoming repetitive. - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:23 PM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane -- Just so we're really clear: if a user authenticates with Yahoo! on site A and controls preferences on that site, does the out of band consent dialogue Jonathan showed invalidate DNT-1: on site A? in general? Best, Tamir On 6/15/2012 11:29 PM, Tamir Israel wrote: Ok. On 6/15/2012 2:07 PM, Shane Wiley wrote: DAA Opt-out and single-sign on are not related. There are some implementations where the ID is needed beyond the authentication event and therefore data collection occurs outside of the initial authentication event. Users do NOT need to choose Yahoo! as their ID provider if they feel uncomfortable with that outcome. - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:56 AM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane, Maybe we are getting sidetracked. Can you please explain the scope of tracking that results from using Yahoo!'s IdM mechanism? Does it mean you can track all my activities on the specific authenticated site? If so does this carry across multiple explicitly authenticated sites? Does it operate in a manner analogous to single sign-on? How does it interact with the existing DAA opt-out? Thanks and best regards, Tamir On 6/15/2012 11:28 AM, Shane Wiley wrote: Tamir, Any service gets to determine its own primary purpose - so if OBA is the payment for the service and this is disclosed as a primary purpose, then that's the bargain the users can choose to consent to or not. - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:21 AM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane -- There are 2 questions here. One is whether you can bundle in the obligation to consent to secondary purposes as a condition of authentication in an IdM context. The primary service in an IdM context is authentication, not OBA. The second is to what extent the DNT spec should address this. I took the 'independent choice' out of band consent criteria as an attempt to prevent bundling of choices. Best, Tamir On 6/15/2012 11:06 AM, Shane Wiley wrote: Tamir, But in the use case we're discussing the service being provided is the primary purpose - a user's online identity. A service determines its primary purpose, discloses this to the user, user consents. Case closed. - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:02 AM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane, I disagree. Under PIPEDA you should offer users the possibility of opting out of collection, use or disclosure for purposes secondary to the primary service being offered. This is the basis of the opt-out consent scheme being applied to online tracking. Best, Tamir On 6/15/2012 10:58 AM, Shane Wiley wrote: Tamir, I disagree and PIPEDA does as well. As long as you're clear to a user what a service provides and a user expressly consents to those practices, the discussion is over. Please don't try to raise CA regulatory schemes into conversations on one hand then completely reverse your stance at whim - this seriously undermines your credibility. - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Tamir Israel [mailto:tisrael@cippic.ca] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 7:54 AM To: Shane Wiley Cc: Rigo Wenning; public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane -- The need for independent choice is critical, I think, to the out of band consent scheme. You shouldn't be able to force users out of their DNT choices as a condition of authentication. Best, Tamir On 6/15/2012 10:48 AM, Shane Wiley wrote: Rigo, DNT will NEVER trump an out-of-band consent. The user would simply withdraw from using the service they had provided prior consent to. If the product would like to offer two levels of service, it can of course do that, but that would be completely outside the scope of DNT. DNT is not the privacy silver bullet and answer to all privacy issues on the Internet - let's stop trying to push it in that direction. Thank you, - Shane -----Original Message----- From: Rigo Wenning [mailto:rigo@w3.org] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:28 AM To: public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org> Cc: Shane Wiley; rob@blaeu.com<mailto:rob@blaeu.com>; Kimon Zorbas; ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>; Tamir Israel; JC Cannon (Microsoft) Subject: Re: Identity providers as first parties Shane, Kimon, On Thursday 14 June 2012 16:47:03 Shane Wiley wrote: I’ve used a few others and they appears to do the same so I’m confused as to what real-world identity provider scenario someone is considering where consent wasn’t already obtained? I confirm that we agreed that the out-of-band agreement will trump the DNT:1 signal. We also agreed that the service has to signal this to the client. I guess, what Rob is trying to achieve is to say, even in this context, a service could offer the choice of stopping to track and only use information for the login/authentication purpose. This could be the meaning of DNT:1 if the Service sends ACK in a login/authentication context. If you're looking for medical information in a login context, you don't want your login provider to spawn that to your insurance. I think this is a very legitimate use case. The service could say: "yes, I see your point" and send ACK instead of "out-of-band". We are just defining switches. People will decide whether they switch stuff on or off or provide a switch at all. Rigo
Received on Sunday, 17 June 2012 22:08:50 UTC