RE: ACTION-211 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal

Peter, its that very fact which makes MSIE 10 non-compliant and gives servers the right to ignore all DNT headers from IE regardless of who set them and still be compliant.  You are hitting the point exactly.  However, this does not mean that servers need to cave in and do what a non-compliant browser dictates to them.  In fact, it means the exact opposite.  It means that since you cannot tell the origination of the intent, you can ignore all DNT:1 headers from that particular UA.  In this case, it is the user who is negatively affected, especially if they intended to send the DNT:1 signal.  This will provide that user with incentive to switch browsers which will in turn apply pressure to the non-compliant browser to become compliant.

-kevin

From: Peter Cranstone [mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:57 AM
To: ifette@google.com
Cc: Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org
Subject: Re: ACTION-211 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal

The point that I'm trying to make is that the server has NO indication WHO set the DNT flag. There is NOTHING in the spec to indicate this.

You know (human) that MSIE ships with the default set to 1. Ok, I get that. But if I change it and then change it back two days later are you still going to reject every request?

This whole "default" issue is a red herring. The server doesn't know default from a hole in the wall. All it sees is DNT:1 and a UA.



Peter
___________________________________
Peter J. Cranstone
720.663.1752

From: "Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ)" <ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>>
Reply-To: <ifette@google.com<mailto:ifette@google.com>>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:52 AM
To: Peter Cranstone <peter.cranstone@gmail.com<mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>>
Cc: Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org<mailto:justin@cdt.org>>, W3 Tracking <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: ACTION-211 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal

Peter, what are you trying to get at? I am missing it.

In the case of seeing DNT:1 from IE10, by far the most likely reason for seeing that is that it's the default, and so in the absence of any other information a server would be justified in thinking that it wasn't an actual expression by the user but rather an expression by MSFT. You're correct in that in the general case it's impossible to tell who tweaked the setting (except perhaps in the case of SSL, where you know it was something on the user's computer), but what are you trying to get at?
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Peter Cranstone <peter.cranstone@gmail.com<mailto:peter.cranstone@gmail.com>> wrote:
I know what the spec says.

What I'm asking you to define is how the server knows WHO set the DNT flag. Nobody has been able to answer that question yet.


Peter
___________________________________
Peter J. Cranstone
720.663.1752<tel:720.663.1752>

From: Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org<mailto:justin@cdt.org>>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:41 AM
To: W3 Tracking <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: ACTION-211 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal
Resent-From: W3 Tracking <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:41:56 +0000

On 6/13/2012 10:35 AM, Peter Cranstone wrote:
>> We do not specify how tracking preference choices are offered to the user or how the preference is enabled:

&

>> Implementations of HTTP that are not under control of the user must not express a tracking preference on their behalf.

Which means that MSIE 10 is compliant, because it's under the control of the user.
This alone does not mean that IE10 is compliant, as there is separate text saying that "A user agent MUST NOT express a tracking preference for a user unless the user has interacted with the user agent in such a way as to indicate a tracking preference."


>> Implementations of HTTP that are not under control of the user must not express a tracking preference on their behalf.

How do you know? All a proxy server has to do is add DNT:1 ­ take Abine for example. A 3rd party plugin that adds DNT:1 to the outbound header. You have no idea who set it because there's no code to determine who did it. Me or the add on.
I agree that third parties should not be second guessing DNT:1 signals for all the reasons that I and others have expressed over the list in the last two weeks.

Peter
___________________________________
Peter J. Cranstone
720.663.1752<tel:720.663.1752>

From: Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org<mailto:justin@cdt.org>>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:26 AM
To: W3 Tracking <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Subject: ACTION-211 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal
Resent-From: W3 Tracking <public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:27:17 +0000

Hello, here is draft language for the compliance document on user agent requirements.  The first paragraph is new, the second two are copied-and-pasted from Section 3 of the current TPE spec.

Replace 4.2 Intermediary Compliance (empty) with this new section:

4.2 User Agent Compliance

A user agent MAY offer a control to express a tracking preference to third parties.  The control MUST communicate the user's preference in accordance with the [[Tracking Preference Expression (DNT)]] recommendation and otherwise comply with that recommendation.  A user agent MUST NOT express a tracking preference for a user unless the user has interacted with the user agent in such a way as to indicate a tracking preference.

We do not specify how tracking preference choices are offered to the user or how the preference is enabled: each implementation is responsible for determining the user experience by which a tracking preference is enabled. For example, a user might select a check-box in their user agent's configuration, install an extension or add-on that is specifically designed to add a tracking preference expression, or make a choice for privacy that then implicitly includes a tracking preference (e.g., Privacy settings: high). Likewise, a user might install or configure a proxy to add the expression to their own outgoing requests.

Although some controlled network environments, such as public access terminals or managed corporate intranets, might impose restrictions on the use or configuration of installed user agents, such that a user might only have access to user agents with a predetermined preference enabled, the user is at least able to choose whether to make use of those user agents. In contrast, if a user brings their own Web-enabled device to a library or cafe with wireless Internet access, the expectation will be that their chosen user agent and personal preferences regarding Web site behavior will not be altered by the network environment, aside from blanket limitations on what resources can or cannot be accessed through that network. Implementations of HTTP that are not under control of the user must not express a tracking preference on their behalf.

--

Justin Brookman

Director, Consumer Privacy

Center for Democracy & Technology

1634 I Street NW, Suite 1100

Washington, DC 20006

tel 202.407.8812<tel:202.407.8812>

fax 202.637.0969<tel:202.637.0969>justin@cdt.org<mailto:justin@cdt.org>http://www.cdt.org


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