- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:05:52 +1100
- To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
15 Dec 2008
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, heycam, anthony, ChrisL
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
Cameron
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Sydney f2f
2. [5]svg 1.1 errata
3. [6]clip path erratum
4. [7]1.1 test suite bug
5. [8]name of SVG Tiny 1.2
6. [9]SVG 1.1 test suite bug
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 15 December 2008
<shepazu> that's annoying
<shepazu> [11]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SydneyF2F2009/
[11] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SydneyF2F2009/
<ed> scribeNick: ed
Sydney f2f
<shepazu>
[12]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SydneyF2F2009/results
[12] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SydneyF2F2009/results
AG: please register if you're coming
ED: location?
AG: probably manly
svg 1.1 errata
<anthony>
[13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#propogati
on-of-rotation-text
[13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#propogation-of-rotation-text
[14]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml.di
ff?r1=1.16&r2=1.17&f=h
[14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml.diff?r1=1.16&r2=1.17&f=h
CM: some small things
<ChrisL> CM: </svg>;
<ChrisL> is wrong
CL: the included file seems fine, but the inline example is wrong
<ChrisL> trailing semicolon is not in the source that is included;
must be in the errata
ED: is it correct that it maps rotate to characters and not to
glyphs?
AG: yes
CL: the spec tells you what to do for those cases, important for
ligatures for example, you skip values if you do a ligature
<ChrisL> particularly important to avoid off-by-one errors with
optional ligatures
<heycam> propogation -> propagation
<heycam> the links to the rotate attribute should have single quotes
around them (like the element links)
<heycam> most of the links have an unwanted trailing space within
the link
<ChrisL> yup, thats right. does not affect tiny
<heycam> ED: is this in tiny?
<heycam> AG: no, tiny doesn't have positioning attributes on tspans
etc.
<heycam> Scribe: Cameron
<heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
ED: is there any example with both rotate and x/y positioning at the
same time?
AG: no
ED: i'm wondering if it's defined in what order they're applied, if
it makes any difference
CM: would it make any difference?
ED: wouldn't think so
"the the (orange)" -> "the (orange)"
ED: it says "supplemental rotation", so it seems to be pretty clear
... might be easier to read if the paragraph describing the
rotations is split into a list
CM: maybe a list item per element
AG: ok should be easy
ED: optionally you could be the same text inside the test, as the
test description
... is it informative or normative?
AG: informative
ED: probably should note it as informative
... there might some generic statement that says that all examples
are informative
<ChrisL> +1
ED: should we move it to proposed?
CM: do you have an svg version of the rotation diagram?
AG: no i might make one
ED: pending these changes we can move it to proposed
AG: batik and opera do the same thing, which is not propagating the
rotation into tspans
... and not onto the text after a child tspan
... in example 5, the last word "rotation" doesn't have any
characters rotated in batik/opera
ED: for us it'd be nice so we don't have to do two different things
for rotation [since it's different in tiny]
... i'd like to hear jwatt's comments
... have you tested firefox?
AG: yes they don't rotate any of the characters
CM: what made us choose to do it this way?
AG: in tiny, if there are fewer rotations than characters, it
doesn't say what to do if there's a tspan
... so the erratum makes 1.1 align with tiny
CL: aligns and extends
CM: it was undefined in 1.1?
AG: yes
ED: it's not interoperable at the moment, so hopefully this will
make it usuable
... don't know if we had many 1.2T tests for text rotation
CL: it'd be a good test for 1.1e2
... more likely to get fixed in implementations if there are tests
CM: are there tests associated with this erratum?
AG: no but i could take the tspan05 example and turn it into a test
... change the text colour to green, with expected rotation
characters in red underneath
ED: should probably make all errata tests into proper test suite
tests for a release later
clip path erratum
ED: more feedback from thomas?
DS: he is arguing from the point of view of implementing, but to me
it is more important how useful the feature is
... and it's not a burden to implement it the way we've described
... he argues that it's hacky/ugly, but i don't think he's
substantiated that
<ChrisL> I agree with Doug
ED: i'd agree that it would put a burden on implementations to
change things, but it's not a big burden
DS: i mean an undue burden. any change needs effort.
... he seems to be claiming that batik is doing it a certain way,
turning clip paths into masks
<shepazu>
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Dec/0041.html
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Dec/0041.html
CM: i think that was part of his argument that clip paths are more
like pixel operations
DS: i don't see a conflict with tying visibility to clipping, but he
does
CL: i think it's consistent to tie the visible* values to clipping
ED: i'd agree
... it would not be a good idea to introduce more pointer-events
values
... introducing new elements could be an option in the future
DS: i think it's worth the little bit of work for implementors to do
it this way
CL: it's unspecified at the moment, some implementations have to
change, we think we've changed it the right way
DS: if we change this, how hard would it be to change the behaviour
in batik?
CM: i think not hard, thomas has created a patch that
unconditionally (irrespective of pointer-events) clips events
ED: so the only thing missing from batik would be treating the
visible* values differently
... same change for firefox
DS: and safari would have to change to clip by default, and doesn't
clip when pointer-events has particular values
CL: has safari implemented it differently, or not at all?
ED: they do clipping, but perhaps the same as batik currently
<shepazu> ran out of skype credit.... will be back in a moment
ED: i don't think it's a bad change
CL: i think we should move it to proposed
https: //issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=46289
RESOLUTION: Move this clip path events erratum to proposed
1.1 test suite bug
name of SVG Tiny 1.2
<ChrisL> It has been suggested that Tiny 1.2 should be called Core
1.2
DS: an issue with the name of the SVG Tiny 1.2 spec has come up
... it's been suggested that we name it SVG 1.2 Core, it being the
core language that 1.2 modules go on top of
CL: we've already said it's the core of the language, calling it
Core 1.2 is reasonably consistent
... and when we come up with Core 2.0 it's consistent
... otoh, the name SVGT has a bit of traction
... getting rid of that term would be a problem
DS: we'd have to hear from the two main mobile vendors
AG: i agree with chris, can see both sides of the coin
DS: i'm the same way, fairly ambivalent
... i wonder if people might look at SVG Core and say "oh, there's
something new" rather than as svg tiny
... people might think svg tiny is old news
... otoh, calling it Core sends a certain message to the browser
vendors that we think this is the core of the language, which some
of them have objected to in the past
AG: be good to get feedback from mobile and desktop implementors
ED: practically, doing the name change would mean going through the
spec and changing all instances of the name
... other specs that reference it?
DS: might create confusion in the marketplace about whether svg is
implemented/used
... i think if this issue had come up earlier it might've been more
feasible
... we could ask ikivo/bitflash what they think about it
CM: they probably have promotional material already published with
the current name
DS: i'm inclined to say that unless we get buy-in from
bitflash/ikivo, we keep the name as is
... an appropriate time to have done this might've been when we went
back to LC
ED: we'd have to decide before going to rec. there are 3 more days
of AC review?
... after those days what happens?
DS: planning on publishing on friday
... i'll email bitflash/ikivo
ED: my opinion would be that it would cause confusion rather than
unity or anything
SVG 1.1 test suite bug
ED: we got a bug report
... are we using the bugzilla?
DS: if people are comfortable raising bugs that way, then we should
keep it
CL: preferable to people adding it to our tracker
ED: this particular test case does have an incorrect reference
image, i think
... i don't think it's news; we probably have it in the old tracker,
along with other test suite bugs
... we should track it in the new tracker and fix it as part of
releasing the 1.1e2 spec
... having someone respond is a good idea
CL: i'll respond
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to respond to the bugzilla bug on the
incorrect reference image [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2381 - Respond to the bugzilla bug on the
incorrect reference image [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-12-22].
CL: why is the reference image incorrect? what makes it wrong?
ED: not sure exactly, the link he gives (blow-by-blow) is correct
<ChrisL> ok so why is the reference image wrong here?
<ChrisL> batik uses a series of box blurs?
ED: i'd guess that batik just generated it incorrectly or that it
was an incorrect patch file
<ChrisL> could be a buggy patch file
CL: i'll look into that
ED: until we have the 1.1 test suite moved over, it's difficult to
do the fixes
... any status update on that?
DS: we decided not to do it, since we need to change the tests
anyway
... so revision numbers didn't matter
<ed> [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2373 ?
[17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2373
CM: didn't we say that we should do it to keep the cvs logs?
CL: i'd imagine the best thing would be to port the 1.2T copies
... using the 1.1 <-> 1.2T test name correspondence table
... checking them in with cvs revision 1.1 files
... we shouldn't lose the fixes we made in 1.2T
ED: i have a feeling most of those fixes were for xml:id and not
much else
... e.g. tiny things that weren't in 1.1
... i could be wrong but that's my feel of it
... things like changing percentages to [0,1] ranges for gradients,
minor things like that
... might be a good idea to check
... since we have that name correspondence table, the files could be
diffed to see if there are major changes
... shouldn't take too long
<ChrisL> yes i agree a pairwise diff would eb good looking for
non-obvious changes
ED: for the moving over would we create new files and lose the
history?
... i don't know if it's hard to copy them over without the history
then
CL: are we copying 1.1? or 1.2T and changing them back?
ED: i'd like to take the 1.1 and then diff the 1.2T ones against
these ones that have appropriate changes from the 1.1 versions
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to move the 1.1 tests to public cvs, checking
diffs against the corresponding 1.2T tests [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2382 - Move the 1.1 tests to public cvs,
checking diffs against the corresponding 1.2T tests [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2008-12-22].
AG: are we using the new test template when we move them over?
ED: that'd be a followup thing i guess
CL: i'd copy and include in the commit log a pointer to the old file
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to summarise last telcon's discussions on
svg-in-html and reply to the existing thread [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2383 - Summarise last telcon's discussions
on svg-in-html and reply to the existing thread [on Cameron
McCormack - due 2008-12-22].
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to summarise last telcon's discussions on
svg-in-html and reply to the existing thread [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to respond to the bugzilla bug on the incorrect
reference image [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to move the 1.1 tests to public cvs, checking
diffs against the corresponding 1.2T tests [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/15-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2008/12/15 21:01:34 $
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[23] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Found Date: 15 Dec 2008
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--
Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
Received on Monday, 15 December 2008 21:06:51 UTC