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Minutes September 16, 2008 telcon

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:08:44 +0200
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.uhkpcukegeuyw5@macbooked.local>

Minutes available here:

   http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html

or as plaintext below:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Sep 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0304.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           aemmons, Andrew_Sledd, anthony, ed, Doug_Schepers

    Regrets
    Chair
           AE

    Scribe
           erik

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]LC comments
          2. [6]Test fest update
          3. [7]values of requiredExtensions to use XHTML/MathML
          4. [8]Fixing the Test Suite
          5. [9]Review of struct-discard-208-t.svg test
          6. [10]SVG clip-path, mask and filter for non-SVG content
          7. [11]priorities
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 16 September 2008

    <scribe> scribe: erik

    <scribe> scribeNick: ed

LC comments

    AE: as of right now, there are no comments
    ... DS you'll be tracking them as they come in?

    DS: yes, I'll put them in the LC tracking tool

Test fest update

    AE: it's up in two weeks time
    ... not many responders
    ... three people coming
    ... want to remind everyone to respond

    <shepazu>
    [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/OttawaF2F2008

      [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/OttawaF2F2008

    <aemmons>
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgOttawaTestFest2008/

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgOttawaTestFest2008/

    [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings

      [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings

    <shepazu>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgOttawaTestFest2008/

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgOttawaTestFest2008/

    AE: still negotiation to be able to go, but I think bitflash are
    sending someone
    ... do we have implementations to test except for the people that
    are coming?

    DS: there's abbra, and I think chris contacted some people too

    AE: so, at least one impl to gather results for there
    ... and julian from spinetix
    ... we want to have good coverage, but we need to have enough people
    to do the testing

    DS: the more people we have the better

    AE: bitflash said they could send additional people if we need more
    impls tested
    ... will send out an email about the testfest
    ... need to decide exactly where the meeting will be and so on

    <scribe> ACTION: AE to move the ottawa testfest f2f page from the
    private to the public wiki, and add the location etc [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2192 - Move the ottawa testfest f2f page
    from the private to the public wiki, and add the location etc [on
    Andrew Emmons - due 2008-09-23].

values of requiredExtensions to use XHTML/MathML

    <aemmons>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    1.html

      [18]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0291.html

    AE: so in LC are we allowed to make any changes?

    DS: got different answers
    ... the general consensus seem to be that it's ok to make changes in
    LC
    ... any change that affects an implementation that makes us
    reevaluate our test coverage isn't necessarily very good

    AE: in this particular case, is this for SVG 1.1?

    DS: i think it's for svg in general

    AE: CL says adding an example might be a way forward

    DS: i'm sceptical, it'd be non-normative
    ... we're making a spec for implementors
    ... we have an example that has xhtml in it, and it's using some
    bogus requiredExtension string
    ... it's a good idea to change the example, but I don't think it's
    enough

    AE: should be raise it as an issue?
    ... and discuss it over the course of our last call, to wait for
    further feedback

    DS: we've already got feedback
    ... question is if this is useful or if it harms anything

    AE: what does everyone think of it?

    ED: I'd be happy adding it

    <shepazu>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    9.html

      [19]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0299.html

    ED: proposed wording looks ok

    AE: makes sense to make it generic like that

    <shepazu>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/struct.html#ExternalResourcesRe
    quiredAttribute

      [20]  
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/struct.html#ExternalResourcesRequiredAttribute

    AE: my only hesitation is to be careful with making changes to the
    spec

    DS: we'd need to make tests for it too

    <shepazu>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/struct.html#RequiredExtensionsA
    ttribute

      [21]  
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/struct.html#RequiredExtensionsAttribute

    DS: how would you test it?
    ... abbra supports XHTML in foreignObject

    AE: careful wording in the pass criteria would probably work

    RESOLUTION: we'll clarify the wording in requiredextensions, adding
    the proposed wording from DS for XHTML and MathML

    DS: do we want an errata item for 1.1 too?

    <scribe> ACTION: DS to implement the resolution "we'll clarify the
    wording in requiredextensions, adding the proposed wording from DS
    for XHTML and MathML" and add a corresponding errata item for SVG
    1.1 [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2193 - Implement the resolution \"we'll
    clarify the wording in requiredextensions, adding the proposed
    wording from DS for XHTML and MathML\" and add a corresponding
    errata item for SVG 1.1 [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-09-23].

    RATIONALE: it's a proven interop issue, and the wording is ambigous,
    and we want interop

    <aemmons>
    [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    6.html

      [23]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0296.html

Fixing the Test Suite

    AE: CL said he fixed the second part already
    ... in the online version (so, for the next version)
    ... should we update the released package?

    DS: I'd rather wait until we have new content

    AE/NH/ED: agree

    AE: the first part, is that something that could be changed in the
    script

    AG: file permissions don't get stored with the file do they?

    DS: follow up with doh?

    <scribe> ACTION: AG to follow up with DOH on
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    6.html regarding the first point [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]

      [24]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0296.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2194 - Follow up with DOH on
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    6.html regarding the first point [on Anthony Grasso - due
    2008-09-23].

      [26]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0296.html

    <aemmons>
    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    8.html

      [27]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0298.html

Review of struct-discard-208-t.svg test

    AG: tests a specific part of discard
    ... the original tests didn't quite test it properly

    AE: we shouldn't approve any new tests until the f2f
    ... but assigning a reviewer is ok of course
    ... I'll review it

    <scribe> ACTION: AE to review struct-discard-208-t.svg [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2195 - Review struct-discard-208-t.svg [on
    Andrew Emmons - due 2008-09-23].

    AG: opera passes

    NH: ikivo passes

    <aemmons>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/030
    5.html

      [29]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0305.html

SVG clip-path, mask and filter for non-SVG content

    AG: quick question: are we still going to work on the testsuite
    after 1.2T goes to rec?

    DS: yes

    AE: agree, it'll probably be more tests added

    DS: to push us over 500 approved tests, would be nice

    AE: ok, back to the clip-paths

    ED: haven't had time to look at the proposal in detail yet

    DS: was trimmed down from what he had before

    [30]http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html

      [30] http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html

    <shepazu>
    [31]http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html

      [31] http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/SVG-CSS-Effects-Draft.html

    <shepazu>
    [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#elementview-getboundingclientre
    ct

      [32]  
http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/#elementview-getboundingclientrect

    ED: would have to look at the CSS box model to see if that's the
    most appropriate way of defining exactly what's the size of the svg
    ... concerned about borders, margin, padding

    DS: any objections to taking this on?

    AE: it sounds very powerful

    RESOLUTION: we'll take on this work, and liaison with the CSS WG to
    make sure this is ok

    DS: what spec would it go in?
    ... filters? compositing?
    ... clipping and masking?

    AE: do we want to raise an issue for this then?

    DS: I'll add to tracker
    ... we could originate it in its own spec, like an svg-css spec
    ... might be more work though

    AE: still some work to analyze this

    DS: would prefer to put it in a spec now

    <shepazu> [33]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/

      [33] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/

    AE: this is similar to the enableBackground (where wording is
    different in two modules)

    AG: problem is that we'll have to push changes to everywhere

    AE: we could have the spec scripts pull changes from a central
    location
    ... we need to solve how this is handled though

    AG: yes, that's one way, I don't really mind how we solve this
    ... the other option is to make a small spec for things that
    overlap, and include that in the modules

    AE: problem with that is if you need one little bit only
    ... and it's own testsuite etc
    ... 1) pull in wording for e.g enable-background from some central
    place for every module
    ... 2) have a small common module

    DS: or 3) to have duplicated wording in each module
    ... problem is maintainability
    ... the second way is the profile way
    ... sounds like it would be better if it was specced out in one spec
    first, and then pulled into core

    AE: but do we want everything in core?
    ... for the common things
    ... because when you look at this it'd be a collection of stuff that
    has little relation (except in context with the depending specs)

    DS: so I think it makes sense to add roc's wording to the filters
    spec, even the clipping case

    AE: so with enable-background, does it need to say anything about
    filters or clipping or can it be generic?

    ED: it's pretty specific in filters, showing the algortihm for the
    background-image generation
    ... not sure how it looks like in clipping/compositing

    AG: the way i've used in compositing is different from the filters
    spec
    ... describing attributes etc
    ... so if you want to pull in things how do we handle the fact that
    specs are written in different style?

    AE/DS: we should strive to have the same style

    AE: we might change the filters spec to be the same style
    ... how do we merge things between modules? and how do we make sure
    style is consistent?

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to work with AG on integrating ROC's proposal
    into the filters spec [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2196 - Work with AG on integrating ROC's
    proposal into the filters spec [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-09-23].

    <scribe> ACTION: AG to work with ED on integrating ROC's proposal
    into the compositing/clipping&masking spec [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2197 - Work with ED on integrating ROC's
    proposal into the compositing/clipping&masking spec [on Anthony
    Grasso - due 2008-09-23].

    RESOLUTION: we'll fold the clipping&masking into the compositing
    module

    <shepazu> Rationale: the fewer modules, the easier the integration
    of features

    AE: so how do we merge common elements and attributes in modules,
    and the stylistic things

    <scribe> ACTION: AG to fold in the clipping&masking chapter into the
    compositing module [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2198 - Fold in the clipping&masking
    chapter into the compositing module [on Anthony Grasso - due
    2008-09-23].

    DS: do we want to assign editors for the new modules?

    AE: maybe we should first decide the priorities?
    ... need to keep focused, and we need to have the style ready first

    AG: yes, we need to do that first
    ... so we don't waste time later on

    DS: so with vector-effects, I'd just pull in the 1.2Full draft into
    the module

    <shepazu> [37]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/template/

      [37] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/template/

    DS: we should probably reexamine this
    ... if this is the right approach
    ... for vector-effects

    AG: yeah, there are a lot of problems with it as it stands

    DS: ok

    AE: so is there anywhere in the wiki we could have for stylistic
    rules, like what should go in the primer etc

    AG: that'd be helpful

    AE: maybe we could all work on that

    DS: AE do you want to start it up?

    AE: I was thinking AG

    AG: one example is in print, all requirements are highlighted in red
    boxes

    ED: i think i have an action to add that to filters too, but haven't
    had time to do it yet

    AE: it makes sense to have that on the wiki

    <scribe> ACTION: AG to add a wikipage for new modules, describing
    common styling etc [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action08]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2199 - Add a wikipage for new modules,
    describing common styling etc [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-09-23].

priorities

    DS: my wishlist: vector-effects (cool, but will take awhile before
    implemented), the features that bitflash put in (the z-index) and
    the 2.5D stuff

    AE: yes, we want to have the 2.5D soon to see what people have done
    so far
    ... and also from a market POV

    DS: SCXML

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: AE to move the ottawa testfest f2f page from the
    private to the public wiki, and add the location etc [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: AE to review struct-discard-208-t.svg [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: AG to add a wikipage for new modules, describing
    common styling etc [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: AG to fold in the clipping&masking chapter into the
    compositing module [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: AG to follow up with DOH on
    [43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/029
    6.html regarding the first point [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: AG to work with ED on integrating ROC's proposal into
    the compositing/clipping&masking spec [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: DS to implement the resolution "we'll clarify the
    wording in requiredextensions, adding the proposed wording from DS
    for XHTML and MathML" and add a corresponding errata item for SVG
    1.1 [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to work with AG on integrating ROC's proposal into
    the filters spec [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-svg-minutes.html#action05]

      [43]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0296.html

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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     ([49]CVS log)
     $Date: 2008/09/16 12:07:22 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [48] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [49] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: erik
Found ScribeNick: ed
Default Present: aemmons, Andrew_Sledd, anthony, ed, Doug_Schepers
Present: aemmons Andrew_Sledd anthony ed Doug_Schepers
Agenda: [51]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSe
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Found Date: 16 Sep 2008
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