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Minutes, SVG telcon Thursday 3 July 2008

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:04:19 +1000
Message-ID: <486CC043.5070208@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: W3C SVG Public Working Group <public-svg-wg@w3.org>

http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html

---

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

03 Jul 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0168.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_, shepazu, ChrisL

    Regrets
           None

    Chair
           Erik

    Scribe
           anthony

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]test-fest
          2. [6]svginhtml
          3. [7]SVG Open
          4. [8]SVG in HTML
          5. [9]XHTML access module
          6. [10]Issue 2004
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 03 July 2008

    <scribe> Scribe: anthony

    <shepazu> ??P is me

test-fest

    AE: I made the request to discuss this
    ... so we could have a test fest before SVG open
    ... time is running out for that
    ... wanted to see what the group thought about a test fest

    CL: So I thought we decided not to do it
    ... because of difficulties with people traveling

    AE: Wasn't sure, because on a call you could send someone

    CL: Just wondering if it's a bit late to do one
    ... but I can see value in doing it

    AE: It's all a bit connected
    ... because I thought we'd have the test suite published
    ... it's probably too late to have travel for sure
    ... so maybe there's another way of doing it if we are still keen
    ... even then there may not be time to do that
    ... because we have to send a request for implementations

    CL: We need to give people advanced notice
    ... in some ways I'd rather we organise something later
    ... just to give people the notice they need
    ... first thing is to get the test suite published

    AE: We also said there would be a Beta
    ... with a link with known issues
    ... the blocking item is simply putting it up

    ED: So what's the hold up with the test suite?
    ... it's not published?

    AE: Is it something that only a team or staff contact can do?

    CL: Yes it is
    ... planning to fix that
    ... once it's in the public repository
    ... I guess I could ask Sys Team to give access

    AE: I guess Doug is busy with a lot of other stuff
    ... if it was in the public repository
    ... might be able to be published

    CL: Problem is when you check it into the new place
    ... the revision numbering is lost

    AE: Would be great if we get the test suite published
    ... is there a ball park date for holding the test fest

    ED: Ball park date would be after SVG Open?

    CL: Yeah, after it
    ... would the test fest be a face-to-face meeting?

    ED: I guess it would be useful

    CL: September was mentioned
    ... but I have a management meeting 15 - 17 Sep
    ... something around that is ok
    ... either the beginning or end is fine with me

    DS: We are having a F2F before SVG Open
    ... what are we doing there?

    ED: We could have some time allocated for it

    AE: We'd want this test fest to be the final one
    ... so it could take some time
    ... so at the F2F we should focus on getting the test suite

    <scribe> ... done

    ED: So it sounds like we should work on tests
    ... to get the suite done
    ... at the F2F

    AE: If we release a Beta 2 some time soon
    ... we could work on the test suite

    CL: Would be good to announce a Beta 3 at the F2F
    ... I'm think the 20th - 24th Oct is the TP
    ... one possibility is to organise the test fest near that
    ... not sure if that is too far in advance

    AG: Not a bad idea

    CL: We'd be talking about the week around the 13th Oct
    ... how long will we need?

    ED: 4 - 5 days probably

    AE: Are people good for going 2 weeks at a time

    DS: I think being worn out before the TP might not be a good idea

    CL: If we did the test fest Mon - Thur
    ... it would give us 3 days before TPac

    AE: Is the date mid Oct too late for publication of the spec

    CL: Whether is too late depends on how many pass we have
    ... at the test fest
    ... traditionally they produce their implementation report
    ... then request to go to PR
    ... [Explains process]
    ... if we were in PR in Dec that's fine with me
    ... it's just a notice to say we have 6 weeks to go

    DS: We should really shoot for the end of the year

    ED: In that case we should go with the end of Sep

    AE: As CL said we may run the risk of not having 2 implementations
    for every feature
    ... that said it would nice to have a report sooner or later
    ... would be good task implementers where they are up to
    ... but maybe if a staff person asked it would be good
    ... so it sounds like Sep is probably the better time

    ED: Do we want to decide on a location?
    ... or do we want to discuss it at the next F2F

    AE: Might be a bit tight at the F2F

    DS: I'm happy to host or Andrew can you host?

    AE: I'd be happy to host

    CL: What about the week of the 29th Sep?

    DS: Anytime around then is fine with me

    AE: 29th sounds ok
    ... we can decide on another call the exact location

    ED: Sounds ok

    RESOLUTION: We will hold a test fest on the 29th Sep to the 2nd Oct
    somewhere in North America

    CL: We should announce that ASAP
    ... and say that further details are soon to follow

    AE: We should have time line for registering it for it

    <scribe> ACTION: Emmons to announce that we will he holding a test
    fest from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide further
    details soon [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2080 - Announce that we will he holding a
    test fest from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide
    further details soon [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-07-10].

    <ed_> [13]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/

svginhtml

SVG Open

    <ed_> [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008

      [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008

    DS: I would like to have something to show at SVG Open to show
    progress

    CL: Form is now open
    ... for registration

    ED: Do we need to something out for the public list to get people to
    sign up for it?

    AE: We should send a reminder to the public working group list

    ED: Ok I can do that

SVG in HTML

    ED: I did an update to the proposal

    <ed_>
    [15]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html

      [15] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html

    ED: you can still see the old proposal

    <ed_>
    [16]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposa
    l.html

      [16] 
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html

    AE: Looks like we've taken the approach of what needs to change in
    HTML5

    <ed_>
    [17]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-h
    tml-proposal.html?rev=1.2&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859
    -1

      [17] 
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html?rev=1.2&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1

    ED: It's using the XML parser
    ... basically it's just a black box
    ... that says how to handle stuff the HTML parser doesn't understand

    AE: Should we have a highlevel note for that?

    CL: It would be good to list the requirements at the top of the
    proposal
    ... such as round trip copy and past of SVG
    ... to and from the document

    DS: We're not trying to HTML5

    ED: It would be good if people could make up dates to this
    ... is this a subset of SVG?
    ... No you can paste any SVG fragment
    ... there are somethings you can't do because HTML doesn't support
    name spaces

    DS: So this does not introduce name spaces to HTML5?

    ED: It does not

    DS: So if have some output from Inkscape and it has all the extra
    metadata how does it handle that?

    ED: That will still work
    ... it will still be put into the DOM

    DS: Except it will not be name spaced

    ED: It will be name spaced

    AE: It's adding it to the DOM
    ... but wouldn't the DOM need that anyway for the Xlink
    serialisation

    CL: The crucial thing for this is that once you've identified
    ... root node that you want to put in
    ... that all the other name spaces within it are preserved
    ... so we are not trying to put in name spaces into HTML5 but
    preserve the name spacing
    ... for content within the SVG element
    ... should have some examples

    ED: I think this is not a bad start
    ... but it's not complete

    DS: So Charles was saying that you could use foreignObject and use a
    switch with a required feature

    ED: Problem is malformed content

    CM: You could put the foreignObject at the end of the SVG
    ... there might be some other tricky things with Font and TextArea

    CL: I think it would be useful to document this
    ... and Doug's fallback idea
    ... and give pros and cons of both

    DS: So font shouldn't show up right

    CM: So if we mandated elsewhere that default style sheets have that
    on it
    ... so if these things get parsed and have name spaces set properly
    ... then you could use that to determine where it came from

    DS: I would really like to see us present this in a week or two

    ED: Would be good to flesh some of this out

    DS: Are you pretty confident with this algorithm?

    ED: I think it will work
    ... What's left is to provide examples
    ... and authoring guidelines

    DS: How about we try to have this in place by next Thursday?

    ED: Sounds good
    ... I guess I can try to fit in some examples
    ... it's a good idea to keep it in public CVS and work on it there

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to incorporate what we discussed into the the
    SVG-in-HTML proposal [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2081 - Incorporate what we discussed into
    the the SVG-in-HTML proposal [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-07-10].

XHTML access module

    ED: Haven't had time to read it

    CL: I haven't had a careful read though it

    DS: I'll send in my second review to this list

    <ed_>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/016
    8.html

      [19] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0168.html

    <ed_>
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/015
    3.html

      [20] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0153.html

Issue 2004

    <heycam> ISSUE-2004?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-2004 -- Define SVGMatrix behavior when using float
    edge cases -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2004

      [21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2004

    ED: Cameron had an action to look at this

    CM: I did
    ... the result was that mail
    ... there is no need for infinity and NAN values
    ... so we can define that at the top of the chapter

    ED: I have not issues with your findings
    ... looks fine to me

    CM: Not sure on the type of exception that should be thrown

    <heycam> [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-svg-minutes.html#item09

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-svg-minutes.html#item09

    CM: when one of these values is passed in

    AE: I think at one point there was wording about
    ... what exceptions was thrown
    ... I know that wording was in the traits

    ED: It's in A3.1
    ... [Reads out part]
    ... although it doesn't say anything about infinity

    CM: We could add wording in that said

    <heycam> CM: If we could replace that "signalling NaN" text with
    something that says if an infinity or NaN is passed in as a float,
    then a certain exception is thrown

    ED: I would prefer not to add the wording into A3.1
    ... because it says "attribute property and normalisation"....
    ... but I guess it's ok
    ... if you consider a normalisation a call to any method

    <ed_> s/attribute property and normalisation/attribute/property
    normalisation/

    AG: Result?
    ... add that wording?

    ED: Yes we should add that wording

    CM: What do implementations do at the moment for not supported
    error?

    AE: I think that with the trait tests
    ... we do what the current spec says
    ... I think it might be non-trivial to change that
    ... since it's in JSR226
    ... and that's already in the field

    CM: So I guess if someone can confirm that in 226

    AE: Yes I can confirm that

    CM: In that case we should chose that
    ... there was something slightly related that I mentioned in the
    email
    ... and that was for negative zeros

    <ed_>
    javascript:alert(document.createElementNS("[23]http://www.w3.org/200
    0/svg", "svg").setCurrentTime(parseFloat("asdasd")))

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg

    ED: It seems that Opera is doing the not supported error
    ... so this will give you the not supported error in the console

    CM: So would you be willing to change the other one
    ... to type mismatch

    AE: The type mismatch is specifically dealing with NAN
    ... it's in the context of
    ... you're putting in what could be a float value
    ... but for the one you posted in that is not supported

    ED: For me the changes in either one of them is very limited
    ... but I'd prefer if it were similar everywhere
    ... so do we want to put this text into the spec

    <ed_>
    javascript:alert(document.createElementNS("[24]http://www.w3.org/200
    0/svg", "svg").setFloatTrait("x",parseFloat("asdasd")))

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2000/svg

    CM: throwing type miss match error for set float trait
    ... and then other for the other cases

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to fix exceptions in the specification for
    setFloat values [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2082 - Fix exceptions in the specification
    for setFloat values [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-10].

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to fix exceptions in the specification for
    setFloat values [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Emmons to announce that we will he holding a test fest
    from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide further
    details soon [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to incorporate what we discussed into the the
    SVG-in-HTML proposal [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.133
     ([30]CVS log)
     $Date: 2008/07/03 12:02:19 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Default Present: aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_, shepazu, ChrisL
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Regrets: None
Agenda: [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJu
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Found Date: 03 Jul 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron emmons erik

      [32] 
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      [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html

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