- From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
- Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:51:36 +0200
- To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Please find the minutes from the last day of the F2F here:
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html
or as text below:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
23 May 2008
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
Erik
Scribe
erik, aemmons
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]moving to public cvs
2. [5]SVG in HTML
3. [6]1.2 modules
4. [7]SVG in HTML
5. [8]1.2 modules
6. [9]SVGPath normalization
7. [10]XHR
8. [11]Close path normalization
9. [12]Explicit values for getSegmentParam()
10. [13]Close 3x3 4x4 matrix topic
11. [14]CSS and SVG
12. [15]Demos!
13. [16]BitFlash/Samsung Layers
14. [17]BitFlash/Samsung SCXML
* [18]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot-ng> Date: 23 May 2008
<scribe> scribe: erik
<scribe> scribeNick: ed
moving to public cvs
<anthony>
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0111.h
tml
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0111.html
AG: my idea was to organize by spec / module
... it's easier to make testsuites per module then
... you can link the tests with the spec and vice versa
... the relative links would be smaller
DS: for errata and revisions of the module we can do it in this
structure
... what mistakes in the old structure were in the old structure?
AE: [drawing on whiteboard]
... explaining new structure
... separate old specs from the new ones, like have an 'archive'
directory with the old stuff
- root
+ modules
ED: is it necessary to move the old specs over to the new cvs?
DS: well, the files but not the history
AE: well the history can't be moved anyway I guess
* root
- modules
+ compositing
+ filters
- core
+ 1.2T
+ 2.0
+ XP
- profiles
+ 1.1F
+ 1.2F
- archive
+ <old specs>
- tools
AG: the testsuite revision numbers will change, which is a problem
DS, AE: true, let's publish the testsuite update first, then move it
to new cvs-space
scribe: which means we'll have to regenerate the reference images
and fix revision numbers for the next publication
AE: so who moves the specs to public cvs?
DS: that would be me
... you will also need cvs access to the new structure /WG and /IG
SVG in HTML
TZ: there are many problems to solve parsing, compound documents etc
DS: at this point the parsing thing is the focus
... we should list the other issues though, but it's probably
something for the CDF group to look at
... to be included in the proposal
TZ: some things are very important to SVG, and I think SVG should
specify them
DS: though some things like navigation are generic, and apply
outside of SVG too
<zlatinski> Here are the considerations about integrating SVG in
HTML (and any other hosting languages):
1.2 modules
AE: would be good to move the module table to the new wiki
<scribe> ACTION: AG to move the svg module table to the new wiki
[recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2037 - Move the svg module table to the
new wiki [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30].
SVG in HTML
<zlatinski> Parsing
<zlatinski> Re-flow management
<zlatinski> Rendering/Drawing
<zlatinski> CSS integration
<zlatinski> JS context
<zlatinski> Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to
hosted language
<zlatinski> Focus Navigation
<zlatinski> API integration
<zlatinski> Parsing
<zlatinski> Re-flow management
<zlatinski> Rendering/Drawing
<zlatinski> CSS integration
<zlatinski> JS context
<zlatinski> Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to
hosted language
<zlatinski> Focus Navigation
<zlatinski> API integration
<zlatinski> Parsing
<anthony> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/SVG_Tiny
[21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/SVG_Tiny
[22]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html
[22] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html
1.2 modules
<aemmons> Scribe: aemmons
ED: Have we published compisiting as first public WD yet?
<anthony>
[23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing
/master/
[23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/
AG: Not yet
... Pretty straightforward from 1.2 Full WD proposals
... Formatted like print spec
... Does it contain 1.1 compisiting?
... No
AE: Should it? To bring it up to 1.1 full?
AG: Perhaps separate module? Masking and clipping?
AE: Depends on how small we want our modules
... Ahh, yes it is in our charter
... Two different modules there
TZ: Where is global opacity fit?
AG: Yes, global opacity with 1.1 should be in this module
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to add 1.1 full opacity to compositing
module [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2038 - Add 1.1 full opacity to
compositing module [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30].
ED: These should not be specific for SVG - good if it can be used
for a different language
... Would like to see it as a requirement
AE: What about print?
AG: I have to respond to comments, been busy with SVG testsuite
ED: Compititing defines enable-background and filters does as well
... It defines how to build a background image
... I am saying we should not try and define again
AG: How is it defined in filters?
... I thought it was filters only
ED: It would probably be the same,
AG: If you want compositing but not filters, what do you do?
... Have done a complete description for enable-background
incompositing
... In the primer
<ed> [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/#AccessBackgroundImage
[25] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/#AccessBackgroundImage
ED: In the filter module there is wording to say host language is
responsible for defining a set of element
AE: [ Discussion on what to do with common attributes]
... We can have common attributes, definitions, etc in a seperate
document and peices taken from them when the spec is generated so
that they re-use the same definition
DS: We could have a separate spec what has these that modules
reference
... Perhaps same concept with full, brings in all modules as it
generates the spec
TZ: Should have a dependency graph
DS: Yes
... I think we should ask other implementers what the most usefl
formt would be. Seperate modules in the final form or seperate
modules?
AE: What about gradients?
ED: We need an editor for all modules, this does not have one
[26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing
/master/SVGCompositing.html
[26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/SVGCompositing.html
Resolution: We will have assertions tagged and formatted directly in
the module specifications like SVG Print and Compositing. This will
help testsuite development
DS: I do not like MUST in ALL CAPS
... Helps readability
... Also may be a large section
... Assertions are really small
... Looks like a list of things as opposed to spec prose
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to mark up assertions in current filter module
specs [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2039 - Mark up assertions in current
filter module specs [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
ED: perhaps different classes for different assertions
... Transformations module?
Resolution: Canon to be editor of Transformations module
<anthony> [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/
[28] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/
SVGPath normalization
AE: The issue is normalizing Q and T to C
... JSR-287 does not normalizae in this way
... Also, helps implementations which are based on OpenVG
... Still maintain hardware acceleration benefits for various curve
types
... Because OpenVG can do this
ED: It is defined differently in SVG 1.1 - will be incompatible and
need an eratta
... SVG 1.1 full tells you you must normalize it to curve to
... how it is drawn it is the same
... SVGPathAnimatedPathData
... It is implemented in Opera and Batik
<ed>
[29]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedPathDa
ta
[29] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedPathData
ED: The Tiny specs says you must normalize quads - will have to
change 1.2 and 1.1
... But, little content using the 1.1 SVGAnimatedPathData
AE: Summarize - increased compatibilty with JSR-287 and better
opportinuty for hardware acceleration using OpenVG
... con - incompatible with 1.1
[30]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/
1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#Attribute_Normalization
[30] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#Attribute_Normalization
remove Translate command Q to command
change: Translate command T to command C
to Translate command T to command Q
Resolution: We will remove Q to C normalization requirement from 1.2
and 1.1
<scribe> ACTION: Aemmons to make and errata item for 1.1 and modify
uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2040 - Make and errata item for 1.1 and
modify uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [on Andrew
Emmons - due 2008-05-30].
XHR
ED: XHR is in Last Call
... Dues date for comments beginning of June
... Have asked us for comments
<shepazu> [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/
[32] http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/
ED: 2nd of June
... Should ask people on the group for comments
... To me it looks fine
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to send e-mail to the list asking for XHR
feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2041 - Send e-mail to the list asking
for XHR feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
<ed> [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterPrimer12/
[34] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterPrimer12/
<ed> [35]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/
[35] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/
<ed> [36]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterReqs12/
[36] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterReqs12/
Close path normalization
<ed>
[37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/001
5.html
[37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0015.html
AE: Do you think we need a change to the spec to make it more clear?
ED: Yes
... We should add to uDOM normalization section
[38]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/
1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#PathNormalization
[38] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#PathNormalization
<ed>
[39]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/
1.2NG/publish/paths.html#PathDataClosePathCommand
[39] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/paths.html#PathDataClosePathCommand
<shepazu> "Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s, t, v, and z) are
converted to their absolute counterparts."
<ed> "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the
cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."
<shepazu> "Translate command Z to command Z. Although a 'closepath'
has a superficial visual resemblance to a 'lineto', command Z must
not be normalized to a 'lineto'."
Action, Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A command Z
is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an
implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."
<scribe> ACTION: Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A
command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where
an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2042 - Add path normalization wording
to uDOM. \"A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in
the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is
joined.\" [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
AE: and the wording above that: Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s,
t, v, and z) are converted to their absolute counterparts."
Explicit values for getSegmentParam()
ED: We should list the max index value for each comand to have it
interropable
AE: MOVE_TO, LINE_TO 2
... CURVE_TO, 6
... QUAD_TO, 4
... CLOSE , 0!
... CLOSE, 0
Action, Aemmons to add clarification to getSegmentParam for the max
index
AE: Approved: udom-svgpath-201-t.svg
... Approved: udom-svgpath-202-t.svg
<zlatinski> scrab: atanas
<zlatinski> AG: Talks about Shear transform
<zlatinski> AG: 2.5 vs. 3D
<zlatinski> AG: TO do a real 3D perspective, we really need 4 x 4
matrixes
<zlatinski> because with 3 x 3 we can only rotate in one of the
planes
<zlatinski> TZ: THis sounds great, except that the processing power
requared for that will be prohibitive
<zlatinski> We did experiment with 3 x 3 and this added significant
overhead in the pipeline, but was acceptable
<zlatinski> Considering 4 x 4, i think would be unacceptable from
performance perspective
<zlatinski> I would suggest extending the Markup to follow OpenGL/ES
spec and utilize the real 3D HW pipeline available today in the
market
<zlatinski> The idea is to have the XML be structured the way OpenGL
would expect to find and utilize the power of the HW on that - so
this would be a real 3D extension (Module)of SVG.
<zlatinski> AG: Cannon believe that to achieve some of the features
we need to support 4 x 4
<zlatinski> AE: Do we have to be concern about mobile or SVG in
general is a different question.
<zlatinski> DS: Does it really fit in SVG, I would really
concentrate the resources on integration with HTML and so forth.
<zlatinski> CL: What are other rendering libraries are doing (other
than OpenVG)
<zlatinski> AG: They normaly do 3 x 3
<zlatinski> CS: AG: Can we animate matrix
<zlatinski> CL: There shall be a way to do that
<zlatinski> CL: To support 3 x 3 we also have to normalize it,
because how are we going to do calculation of 2 x 3 with 3 x 3
<zlatinski> AE: Are you satisfied with the conclusion
<zlatinski> AG: Not sure if 3 x3 would be OK yet
<zlatinski> AG: I was also looking at the reflection filter - angle
and scale offset do a similar effect.
<zlatinski> ED: I think it is possible to do that.
<shepazu> DS: I'd like to do a flip keyword
<zlatinski> CL: TO add more stuff to animate transforms - like
scale, flip, around arbitrary point and to add extra filter to take
optional transform �.
<zlatinski> ...
<shepazu> ... a vector filter that uses those transform keywords
<zlatinski> CL: I would want to also use % in rotate and in relation
to what
Close 3x3 4x4 matrix topic
<scribe> Scribe: aemmons
CSS and SVG
<ed> ...and xsl
DS: Change in members, chairs, would like to make sure we are on the
same page
... work together on the same page
... Apple has interesting proposals for CSS
... would like to work with CSS in incorporating these
... most of our presentation properties are CSS properties
ED: Technically not in the CSS spec
DS: Any transforms, etc should also talk to whoever is specifying
Canvas
... we both have transforms
... XSL as well
AG: We've always had a good working relationship with XSL
DS: And want the same for CSS, etc
... Webfonts a good start to coordinate with them
... Chris has talked with chairs, - a way forward is a joint task
force
... We need to schedule a time with them during the Tpac for a
meeting
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to setup a time to meet CSS during TPac
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2043 - Setup a time to meet CSS during
TPac [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].
DS: As I understand it is not a high priority for them to do
transform enhancements but is a good chance for us to move the web
forward
<shepazu> [42]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/
[42] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/
<shepazu> cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG
<ed> macbookED:~/w3.org ed2$ cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co
SVG
<ed> Permission denied (publickey).
<ed> cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above
messages if any)
<shepazu> cvs -d username@dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG
<zlatinski>
[43]http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/tor/archives/2007/03/svg_prioriti
es_in_firefox_3.html
[43] http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/tor/archives/2007/03/svg_priorities_in_firefox_3.html
<shepazu>
[44]http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/svgopen2007-paper/index.html
[44] http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/svgopen2007-paper/index.html
<shepazu> Cameron's Layout stuff
Demos!
BitFlash/Samsung Layers
Demos layers in SVG using a 'layeredG' element, with level attribute
that indicates draw order that can be animated, etc
general discussion between structured approach or flat approach.
Drawbacks and benifits to both.
rename layeredG to layers and level attribute to layer
perhaps own 1.2 module, layers
BitFlash/Samsung SCXML
Demonstrated SCXML and SVG working together for complex state
machines with no scripting
Mostly adds SMIL events for state entry, exit, change
Very useful for UI
<shepazu>
[45]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview
[45] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview
<shepazu>
[46]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/r
esources/http_php.txt
[46] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/resources/http_php.txt
<ed> rrs-agent, make minutes
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Aemmons to make and errata item for 1.1 and modify
uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: AG to move the svg module table to the new wiki
[recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to add 1.1 full opacity to compositing module
[recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A
command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where
an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to mark up assertions in current filter module
specs [recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to send e-mail to the list asking for XHR
feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [recorded in
[52]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to setup a time to meet CSS during TPac [recorded
in [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [54]scribe.perl version 1.133
([55]CVS log)
$Date: 2008/05/23 16:46:50 $
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[54] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[55] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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[56] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
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Succeeded: s/staff/stuff/
Found Scribe: erik
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Found Scribe: aemmons
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Inferring ScribeNick: aemmons
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WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AE AG CL CS ChrisL DS MikeSmith TZ aemmons anthony ch
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pazu svg trackbot-ng zlatinski
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
<dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
<dbooth> Present+ amy
Found Date: 23 May 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: aemmons ag anthony ed erik
[57] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html
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--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Friday, 23 May 2008 16:50:32 UTC