minutes: SVG IG Call 2008-10-09

aloha!

minutes from the 9 October 2008 SVG Interest Group Teleconference
are available as hypertext at:

http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html

and as an IRC log at:

http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-irc

and as plain text following my signature -- any mis-attributions, 
corrections, errors, clarifications, and the like should be logged 
by replying-to this post on-list

the following action item was assigned at today's call:

   ACTION 1: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]

and the following resolution was logged:

   RESOLUTION: community site name will be decided on mailing list as 
   quickly as possible

note that, according to the schedule, the next scheduled SVGIG meeting
is thursday, 23 October 2008, but since that is smack in the middle of
TPAC 2008, stay please stay tuned to the emailing list for more 
information

also, i have added a link to the W3C IRC web interface to:

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes

apologies for not doing so sooner...

thank you to all who participated, and apologies for any 
mis-attributions or mistakes, gregory.

     _________________________________________________________________

                                   - DRAFT -

                       SVG Interest Group Teleconference

09 Oct 2008

   Agenda
   [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig/2008OctDec/0007.html]

   See also: IRC log [http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-irc]

Attendees

   Present
          Andreas_Neumann, Bruce_Rindahl, Christophe_Strobbe,
          Dave_Porter, Don_Doherty, Gregory_Rosmaita, Helder_Magalhaes,
          JeffSchiller, Manuel, Rob_Longson, Rob_Russell, Shepazu,
          Wade_Johnson, Dom_DePasquale_IRC_only

   Regrets
          David_Dailey

   Chair
          Jeff_Schiller

   Scribe
          Gregory_Rosmaita

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Process, Intros, Etc.
         2. Andreas & Google
         3. Ottawa Testfest
         4. Accessibility
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________



   Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-svgig-minutes.html

   <HelderMagalhaes> Hi! :-)

   <JeffSchiller> Helder, stelt: care to join the call?

   <HelderMagalhaes> Sorry, unfortunately I'm not able to join the
   conference call, I'll just try to catch up from IRC... :-|

   <JeffSchiller> HelderMagalhaes: no problem

   <ddepasqu> Hello. I also will not be able to join the conference call

   <scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

   <Bruce> Bruce Rindahl

   <JeffSchiller>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig/2008OctDec/0007.html

   <stelt> JeffSchiller, i just woke up in a hotel, and managed to get
   internet at rediculous price. I don't think i can arrange phone
   quickly too

   reminder: meeting info and minutes can be found at:
   http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes

Process, Intros, Etc.

   RL: contribute to mozilla
   ... behind corporate firewall

   <HelderMagalhaes> RL: me too, using mibbit.com to workaround a known
   issue here... ;-)

   reminder: meeting info and minutes can be found at:
   http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes

   <DavePorter> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi

   [fyi] contains meeting details, agenda, minutes, IRC logs, links to
   help documents, etc.

   <JeffSchiller> stelt: np

   RL: trying to make code work better when dynamic changes in DOM
   ... in terms of doing something when make dump change

   JS: hobby?

   RL: do in spare time
   ... 40% of code in mozilla from volunteers

   JS: new members?

   WJ: Wade Johnson - been programmer for long time; ran into SVG 6-8
   years ago; played with in free time, never been paid to work for it;
   put some stuff on web and been on svg-developers' list

   RL: background: set up wiki, trying to get community web site up,
   accessibility activity reinvigoration

   JS: conference call time -- DS did you get survey

   <JeffSchiller> oedipus: s/RL/JS :)

   JS: missing david dailey; problem for some folks - fine with this
   time, if no major problems

   DS: would really like to get DavidD on

   http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources

   JS: community site -- trying to get started, Rob been working on
   drupal based site -- want to get out there and publicized -- no home
   yet -- svg.org or similar domain -- Doug domain update?

   DS: probably won't hear back from antoine, nor from owner of the
   domain; if don't hear back shortly can safely assume won't hand ovre

   JS: where do we want it at least? planetsvg.com

   Rob: svghowto.com - best thing i own

   JS: give opinions on emailing list

   <HelderMagalhaes> That's a pity, I always though planetsvg.com would
   be for SVG-related blogs (as most planet* are...)

   JS: status of site: not a lot of change since last meeting

   Rob: interaction between 2 or 3 modules; haven't spent too much time
   on it in past while

   JS: andreas suggested DOM viewer resource -- wiki forum in which i'd
   like to see that happen collaborativeley
   ... books?

   Rob: book best way to present info; diff content pages, not just
   copy-and-paste -- if anyone going to start using rush70.com be aware
   -- wiki markup is handled by filter module - FlexiFilter; have to test
   out implementation -- another option is pear; as far as wiki markup,
   don't know how important to authors on site
   ... additional feature can be added later, don't want to hold back

   JS: lot of people signed up
   ... andreas, do you want to start book there and i will help fill out

   Andres: SVG wiki huge; management problem

   DS: we are planning on making a somethingSurvey DOM explorer that
   would do that test -- too big a job for wiki -- silly to do by hand
   when can be automated

   Andres: should have other DOMs

   <JeffSchiller> HelderMagalhaes: the other option is svghowto.com (Rob
   has this domain)

   DS: in terms of starting content on wiki, would be more useful to have
   things like examples, tricks, how to do common tasks; if want to learn
   SVG in detail, there is info out there for you where can find DOM
   info; can't find easily how to accomplish real-world tasks

   ??: common mistakes should be documented

   DS: howto author content for FF - how to migrate from abode viewer to
   FF -- been very useful; xlink:href

   RL: opacity and fill-opacity

   DS: first book: SVG tips and tricks

   RL: link at top "script" is practical authoring info -- called script
   library to start with, but can always change

   <Manuel> www.vector.net seems dead. Anyone knows, if it's available?

   <longsonr> opacity vs fill-opacity

   RL: can turn comments on for pages one creates -- if write page about
   cross-UA issue, that bug could later be fixed

   JS: wiki markup not translated

   RR: had when had filter enabled - have to change way parses stuff

   <Rob_Russell> http://pear.php.net/

   GJR: accessibility of drupal

   RR: option for filters user can choose -- "input format"

   <JeffSchiller> oedipus: s/RL/RR too many Roberts now ;)

   GJR: will work with Rob offline on accessibility

   <longsonr> ?? common mistakes and opactity vs fill-opacity was me

   <an> http://phrogz.net/objjob/default.asp

   DS: taken first step - working with one other person - objjob?
   ... given me source for that -- something interested in doing at W3C
   when have resources to do it; way to explore all DOMs or all languages
   from W3C - would also include javascript - one-stop-shop for exploring
   for method - link back to specifications, etc.

   JS: host on w3c site?

   DS: yes, that is the plan

   <scribe> ACTION: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - - work with Andreas on object browser
   [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-16].

   Andreas: doable; have to find something for unix

   DS: has been re-writen

   Andreas: what language?

   DS: ruby, perhaps?
   ... would be really useful

   trackbot, status?

   <HelderMagalhaes> helper link: maybe inspire in qooxdoo (JS framework)
   API documentation browser (http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/apiviewer/)

   Andreas: very slow currently

   <DavePorter> To Robert Longson, what are the main faults in Mozilla
   when accessing / altering the SVG DOM? Is that documented well or
   somewhere?

   DS: have whole list of features for w3c one - searchability important

   JS: also contribute books/pages to SVG community site to get seeded

   RESOLUTION: site name will be decided on mailing list as quickly as
   possible

Andreas & Google

   JS: update?

   A: very brief response from google; told that not decision maker - has
   to bring to attention of others at google; want to know confluence of
   research points; told him not yet settled

   JS: DavidD suggested september might be too late for those starting
   university, so perhaps in August

   A: first thing to do is get organizer

   JS: waiting to hear from them on that; need to identify an organizer

   <longsonr> At the moment we are working on making ID changes
   trackable. that is if you change the id attribute of a pattern,
   gradient, text-path etc so that it matches existing content xlink:href
   then the existing content should detect that update

   DS: if we have the site, Andreas now has functional software

   <longsonr> most of the id matching update is done and it should be
   complete for fx 3.1

   DS: could put out call for papers and start the process -- some people
   may need to know exactly where will be -- can say in "north america"
   will keep informed as to exact location, but host doesn't have
   anything to do with that part of process -- finding other sponsors,
   calling for papers

   <longsonr> there is very little documentation other than looking in
   bugzilla to determine what doesn't work

   JS: timeline: can't draw timeline for paper submission if don't know
   when conference is

   RR: north america is very vague -- funding always a problem

   DS: as get more specific pull in more people, but can first get idea
   of what people are interested in

   JS: someone working on website for svg2009open?

   A: hoping to reuse existing layout to create new one

   <DavePorter> Thanks Robert for the insights--appreciated.

   DS: like look of the 2008, but backgrounds not good - tables with
   images behind them
   ... another thing on community site is authoring tools and designer
   tips
   ... Ruud has been compling lists of links for SVG -- might be
   interested in sharing some of that on community site

   <JeffSchiller> Ruud

   <HelderMagalhaes> Andreas: also the site missed some features like RSS
   feeds and automated anchors (i.e., page#subsection).

   JS: should we assign an action to get web site going in context of IG;
   leave as separate activity

   A: fine for me

   JS: hopefully hear by next call about sponsorship

Ottawa Testfest

   <an> yes, Helder, I received your mail recently about improving the
   website

   JS: Doug and several others attended - thumbnail?

   <Rob_Russell> Ottawa Testfest

   DS: usual suspects: bitflash, opera and others in SVG WG; tested batik
   and eSVG and abra from company in australia; motorola also there;
   ... ran tests in test suite on each implementation; kept spreadsheet
   open to log passes and fails; decided if test criteria correct; made
   other decisions about tests itself; have 570 tests, 500 approved,
   which means that will be added to test suite
   ... reason have test bed is to ensure that each feature in spec has
   been tested to ensure that is implementable; not a conformance test
   suite, but an implementability test suite
   ... in order to progress, SVG WG has to demonstrate features specified
   are implementable interoperably
   ... tests veer off into efficiency and interoperability aspects, but
   basically test to ensure feature can be implemented

   <HelderMagalhaes> Will test fest results be made available to the
   public? (like the previous interim report at
   http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20070907/matrix.html)

   DS: criterion for going into PR -- need at least 2 passes for each
   test -- one has to be a mobile user agent because this SVG profile
   specifically for mobile devices
   ... successful testfest -- SVG has one of deepest test beds at W3C
   ... did not have complete coverage for all tests, but now browser devs
   know what holes need to be plugged; 2 weeks from now our deadline
   ... first pass 25 tests for which didn't have 2 implementations; on
   subsequent examination, found problem with test and fixed; others
   (partial) spawned sub-tests; at end, have 10 still need 2
   implementatinos for and devs working feverishly on implementing by end
   of 2 weeks
   ... test suites are never complete, but good news is most tests passed
   by most UAs

   JS: results published?

   DS: because people use as indication of conformance, even though that
   is NOT what it is for, held off on announcing it; publically available
   if one looks hard enough; will be publishing in full at TPAC 2009
   ... didn't want to hurry publication, because wanted to give vendors
   final chance to show have good coverage for all the features
   ... right now, test suite uses xml:id for all tests -- since xml:id
   required by SVG 1.2 Tiny, thinking of forking test suite; tests that
   don't use xml:id redone to use plain id -- would improve
   implementation matrix

   JS: sounds good - opera support xml:id?

   DS: yes

   <HelderMagalhaes> @Doug Yes, didn't mean in a short term, I just guess
   the community would benefit from knowing which features can be used in
   a mid-term basis... :-)

   JS: high performance SVG engines
   ... new javascript engines that increase performance - would be good
   to demo

   <shepazu> @HelderMagalhaes: yes, agreed

   JS: script that generates snow in a page of DIV; used google chrome to
   get maximum effect
   ... want more complex demos to show off power not only of SVG but
   engines themselves
   ... put up brainstorming page on SVGIG wiki to increase exposure of
   SVG to general web developers

Accessibility

   JS: has accessibility activity; inkscape to put in accessible info
   (title, desc, etc.); got patches in on windows side, but not linux
   side

   GJR: check against ATAG 1.0 and ATAG 2.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/atag10
   http://www.w3.org/TR/atag20)

   JS: still have action to put together microtest SVG pages to run
   through diff browsers to document behaviors so can reach consensus on
   what browsers should do

   <HelderMagalhaes> @JeffSchiller Trying to implement title and desc
   hack for ASV (script) but currently facing several limitations... :-|

   GJR: if need to ping me on ATAG, please do

   <JeffSchiller> Helder: sounds good - can we discuss on the mailing
   list

   Bruce: Rob talked about browser SVG plugin for IE -- is plugin for IE
   that will render SVG -- ActiveX control pare down to SVG or Math
   component to make available for IE plug in

   <HelderMagalhaes> @JeffSchiller: Also, Firefox doesn't support "title"
   nor "desc", but does support "xlink:title".

   Rob: plans to do in near-to-medium term

   GJR: mozzie?

   Rob: yes

   <JeffSchiller> are we talking about
   http://www.savarese.org/software/mozie/index.html

   http://sourceforge.net/projects/mozzie/

   GJR: mozzie works well and doesn't cause problem with assistive tech

   <HelderMagalhaes> Trying to find the time to contribute a simple
   Batik-based applet viewer. Several things which are somehow blocking,
   though... (Have no idea on accessibility tech, didn't have thought of
   that).

   GJR: AIA - http://accessinteropalliance

   DS: talked with MS about API for general API for graphics - ARIA for
   diagrams, charts and maps that map to lower level APIs

   http://www.accessinteropalliance.com/aboutus/index.html#bios

   A: using flash for displaying SVG for complex applications

   Bruce: couldn't see the DOM manipulation

   GJR: Andrew Kirkpatrick: head of accessiblity at adobe also at AIA
   ... AIA working groups and projects:
   http://www.accessinteropalliance.com/aboutus/index.html#Working

   <DavePorter> Thank you for this meeting, and I have to drop off now.
   Cheers from Bellevue, WA, USA.

   <Manuel> sorry, have to leave. Bye!

   JS: want natively done in IE; in meantime, what to do? standalone
   plugin has to be downloaded and installed; flash is ubiquitous

   GJR: flash has accessibility issues -- being worked on, but still a
   MAJOR problem

   DS: flash in IE very widely deployed

   Bruce: if had great plugin, but from company no one knows, people
   might hesitate; if came from Adobe, then would be more likely to use

   <HelderMagalhaes> Does anyone knows how far is Java accessible? Is it
   an option?

   <HelderMagalhaes> (given the large percentage of deployments, not as
   good as flash but... :-) )

   <Bruce>
   http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_091
   1_ez_ie8.mspx

   java has native accessibility built-in, but needs the accessbridge for
   windows to work with current windows-based screen readers

   http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/index.html

   best practices for flash design:
   http://www.adobe.com/resources/accessibility/best_practices/bp_fp.html

   http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/accessibility/accessbridge/

   http://java.sun.com/developer/earlyAccess/accessbridge/

   GJR: notes that one can use pure java speech in the GUI, but not
   through tools GUI users used to using

   shepazu, you are right - today's HTML WG call has been cancelled

   when is the next SVGIG call -- the schedule dictates 23 october, but
   isn't that during TPAC?


Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________

Received on Thursday, 9 October 2008 16:57:08 UTC