- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:56:27 +0100
- To: public-svg-ig@w3.org
aloha!
minutes from the 9 October 2008 SVG Interest Group Teleconference
are available as hypertext at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html
and as an IRC log at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-irc
and as plain text following my signature -- any mis-attributions,
corrections, errors, clarifications, and the like should be logged
by replying-to this post on-list
the following action item was assigned at today's call:
ACTION 1: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]
and the following resolution was logged:
RESOLUTION: community site name will be decided on mailing list as
quickly as possible
note that, according to the schedule, the next scheduled SVGIG meeting
is thursday, 23 October 2008, but since that is smack in the middle of
TPAC 2008, stay please stay tuned to the emailing list for more
information
also, i have added a link to the W3C IRC web interface to:
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes
apologies for not doing so sooner...
thank you to all who participated, and apologies for any
mis-attributions or mistakes, gregory.
_________________________________________________________________
- DRAFT -
SVG Interest Group Teleconference
09 Oct 2008
Agenda
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig/2008OctDec/0007.html]
See also: IRC log [http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-irc]
Attendees
Present
Andreas_Neumann, Bruce_Rindahl, Christophe_Strobbe,
Dave_Porter, Don_Doherty, Gregory_Rosmaita, Helder_Magalhaes,
JeffSchiller, Manuel, Rob_Longson, Rob_Russell, Shepazu,
Wade_Johnson, Dom_DePasquale_IRC_only
Regrets
David_Dailey
Chair
Jeff_Schiller
Scribe
Gregory_Rosmaita
Contents
* Topics
1. Process, Intros, Etc.
2. Andreas & Google
3. Ottawa Testfest
4. Accessibility
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-svgig-minutes.html
<HelderMagalhaes> Hi! :-)
<JeffSchiller> Helder, stelt: care to join the call?
<HelderMagalhaes> Sorry, unfortunately I'm not able to join the
conference call, I'll just try to catch up from IRC... :-|
<JeffSchiller> HelderMagalhaes: no problem
<ddepasqu> Hello. I also will not be able to join the conference call
<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus
<Bruce> Bruce Rindahl
<JeffSchiller>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig/2008OctDec/0007.html
<stelt> JeffSchiller, i just woke up in a hotel, and managed to get
internet at rediculous price. I don't think i can arrange phone
quickly too
reminder: meeting info and minutes can be found at:
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes
Process, Intros, Etc.
RL: contribute to mozilla
... behind corporate firewall
<HelderMagalhaes> RL: me too, using mibbit.com to workaround a known
issue here... ;-)
reminder: meeting info and minutes can be found at:
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes
<DavePorter> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi
[fyi] contains meeting details, agenda, minutes, IRC logs, links to
help documents, etc.
<JeffSchiller> stelt: np
RL: trying to make code work better when dynamic changes in DOM
... in terms of doing something when make dump change
JS: hobby?
RL: do in spare time
... 40% of code in mozilla from volunteers
JS: new members?
WJ: Wade Johnson - been programmer for long time; ran into SVG 6-8
years ago; played with in free time, never been paid to work for it;
put some stuff on web and been on svg-developers' list
RL: background: set up wiki, trying to get community web site up,
accessibility activity reinvigoration
JS: conference call time -- DS did you get survey
<JeffSchiller> oedipus: s/RL/JS :)
JS: missing david dailey; problem for some folks - fine with this
time, if no major problems
DS: would really like to get DavidD on
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources
JS: community site -- trying to get started, Rob been working on
drupal based site -- want to get out there and publicized -- no home
yet -- svg.org or similar domain -- Doug domain update?
DS: probably won't hear back from antoine, nor from owner of the
domain; if don't hear back shortly can safely assume won't hand ovre
JS: where do we want it at least? planetsvg.com
Rob: svghowto.com - best thing i own
JS: give opinions on emailing list
<HelderMagalhaes> That's a pity, I always though planetsvg.com would
be for SVG-related blogs (as most planet* are...)
JS: status of site: not a lot of change since last meeting
Rob: interaction between 2 or 3 modules; haven't spent too much time
on it in past while
JS: andreas suggested DOM viewer resource -- wiki forum in which i'd
like to see that happen collaborativeley
... books?
Rob: book best way to present info; diff content pages, not just
copy-and-paste -- if anyone going to start using rush70.com be aware
-- wiki markup is handled by filter module - FlexiFilter; have to test
out implementation -- another option is pear; as far as wiki markup,
don't know how important to authors on site
... additional feature can be added later, don't want to hold back
JS: lot of people signed up
... andreas, do you want to start book there and i will help fill out
Andres: SVG wiki huge; management problem
DS: we are planning on making a somethingSurvey DOM explorer that
would do that test -- too big a job for wiki -- silly to do by hand
when can be automated
Andres: should have other DOMs
<JeffSchiller> HelderMagalhaes: the other option is svghowto.com (Rob
has this domain)
DS: in terms of starting content on wiki, would be more useful to have
things like examples, tricks, how to do common tasks; if want to learn
SVG in detail, there is info out there for you where can find DOM
info; can't find easily how to accomplish real-world tasks
??: common mistakes should be documented
DS: howto author content for FF - how to migrate from abode viewer to
FF -- been very useful; xlink:href
RL: opacity and fill-opacity
DS: first book: SVG tips and tricks
RL: link at top "script" is practical authoring info -- called script
library to start with, but can always change
<Manuel> www.vector.net seems dead. Anyone knows, if it's available?
<longsonr> opacity vs fill-opacity
RL: can turn comments on for pages one creates -- if write page about
cross-UA issue, that bug could later be fixed
JS: wiki markup not translated
RR: had when had filter enabled - have to change way parses stuff
<Rob_Russell> http://pear.php.net/
GJR: accessibility of drupal
RR: option for filters user can choose -- "input format"
<JeffSchiller> oedipus: s/RL/RR too many Roberts now ;)
GJR: will work with Rob offline on accessibility
<longsonr> ?? common mistakes and opactity vs fill-opacity was me
<an> http://phrogz.net/objjob/default.asp
DS: taken first step - working with one other person - objjob?
... given me source for that -- something interested in doing at W3C
when have resources to do it; way to explore all DOMs or all languages
from W3C - would also include javascript - one-stop-shop for exploring
for method - link back to specifications, etc.
JS: host on w3c site?
DS: yes, that is the plan
<scribe> ACTION: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - - work with Andreas on object browser
[on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-16].
Andreas: doable; have to find something for unix
DS: has been re-writen
Andreas: what language?
DS: ruby, perhaps?
... would be really useful
trackbot, status?
<HelderMagalhaes> helper link: maybe inspire in qooxdoo (JS framework)
API documentation browser (http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/apiviewer/)
Andreas: very slow currently
<DavePorter> To Robert Longson, what are the main faults in Mozilla
when accessing / altering the SVG DOM? Is that documented well or
somewhere?
DS: have whole list of features for w3c one - searchability important
JS: also contribute books/pages to SVG community site to get seeded
RESOLUTION: site name will be decided on mailing list as quickly as
possible
Andreas & Google
JS: update?
A: very brief response from google; told that not decision maker - has
to bring to attention of others at google; want to know confluence of
research points; told him not yet settled
JS: DavidD suggested september might be too late for those starting
university, so perhaps in August
A: first thing to do is get organizer
JS: waiting to hear from them on that; need to identify an organizer
<longsonr> At the moment we are working on making ID changes
trackable. that is if you change the id attribute of a pattern,
gradient, text-path etc so that it matches existing content xlink:href
then the existing content should detect that update
DS: if we have the site, Andreas now has functional software
<longsonr> most of the id matching update is done and it should be
complete for fx 3.1
DS: could put out call for papers and start the process -- some people
may need to know exactly where will be -- can say in "north america"
will keep informed as to exact location, but host doesn't have
anything to do with that part of process -- finding other sponsors,
calling for papers
<longsonr> there is very little documentation other than looking in
bugzilla to determine what doesn't work
JS: timeline: can't draw timeline for paper submission if don't know
when conference is
RR: north america is very vague -- funding always a problem
DS: as get more specific pull in more people, but can first get idea
of what people are interested in
JS: someone working on website for svg2009open?
A: hoping to reuse existing layout to create new one
<DavePorter> Thanks Robert for the insights--appreciated.
DS: like look of the 2008, but backgrounds not good - tables with
images behind them
... another thing on community site is authoring tools and designer
tips
... Ruud has been compling lists of links for SVG -- might be
interested in sharing some of that on community site
<JeffSchiller> Ruud
<HelderMagalhaes> Andreas: also the site missed some features like RSS
feeds and automated anchors (i.e., page#subsection).
JS: should we assign an action to get web site going in context of IG;
leave as separate activity
A: fine for me
JS: hopefully hear by next call about sponsorship
Ottawa Testfest
<an> yes, Helder, I received your mail recently about improving the
website
JS: Doug and several others attended - thumbnail?
<Rob_Russell> Ottawa Testfest
DS: usual suspects: bitflash, opera and others in SVG WG; tested batik
and eSVG and abra from company in australia; motorola also there;
... ran tests in test suite on each implementation; kept spreadsheet
open to log passes and fails; decided if test criteria correct; made
other decisions about tests itself; have 570 tests, 500 approved,
which means that will be added to test suite
... reason have test bed is to ensure that each feature in spec has
been tested to ensure that is implementable; not a conformance test
suite, but an implementability test suite
... in order to progress, SVG WG has to demonstrate features specified
are implementable interoperably
... tests veer off into efficiency and interoperability aspects, but
basically test to ensure feature can be implemented
<HelderMagalhaes> Will test fest results be made available to the
public? (like the previous interim report at
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20070907/matrix.html)
DS: criterion for going into PR -- need at least 2 passes for each
test -- one has to be a mobile user agent because this SVG profile
specifically for mobile devices
... successful testfest -- SVG has one of deepest test beds at W3C
... did not have complete coverage for all tests, but now browser devs
know what holes need to be plugged; 2 weeks from now our deadline
... first pass 25 tests for which didn't have 2 implementations; on
subsequent examination, found problem with test and fixed; others
(partial) spawned sub-tests; at end, have 10 still need 2
implementatinos for and devs working feverishly on implementing by end
of 2 weeks
... test suites are never complete, but good news is most tests passed
by most UAs
JS: results published?
DS: because people use as indication of conformance, even though that
is NOT what it is for, held off on announcing it; publically available
if one looks hard enough; will be publishing in full at TPAC 2009
... didn't want to hurry publication, because wanted to give vendors
final chance to show have good coverage for all the features
... right now, test suite uses xml:id for all tests -- since xml:id
required by SVG 1.2 Tiny, thinking of forking test suite; tests that
don't use xml:id redone to use plain id -- would improve
implementation matrix
JS: sounds good - opera support xml:id?
DS: yes
<HelderMagalhaes> @Doug Yes, didn't mean in a short term, I just guess
the community would benefit from knowing which features can be used in
a mid-term basis... :-)
JS: high performance SVG engines
... new javascript engines that increase performance - would be good
to demo
<shepazu> @HelderMagalhaes: yes, agreed
JS: script that generates snow in a page of DIV; used google chrome to
get maximum effect
... want more complex demos to show off power not only of SVG but
engines themselves
... put up brainstorming page on SVGIG wiki to increase exposure of
SVG to general web developers
Accessibility
JS: has accessibility activity; inkscape to put in accessible info
(title, desc, etc.); got patches in on windows side, but not linux
side
GJR: check against ATAG 1.0 and ATAG 2.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/atag10
http://www.w3.org/TR/atag20)
JS: still have action to put together microtest SVG pages to run
through diff browsers to document behaviors so can reach consensus on
what browsers should do
<HelderMagalhaes> @JeffSchiller Trying to implement title and desc
hack for ASV (script) but currently facing several limitations... :-|
GJR: if need to ping me on ATAG, please do
<JeffSchiller> Helder: sounds good - can we discuss on the mailing
list
Bruce: Rob talked about browser SVG plugin for IE -- is plugin for IE
that will render SVG -- ActiveX control pare down to SVG or Math
component to make available for IE plug in
<HelderMagalhaes> @JeffSchiller: Also, Firefox doesn't support "title"
nor "desc", but does support "xlink:title".
Rob: plans to do in near-to-medium term
GJR: mozzie?
Rob: yes
<JeffSchiller> are we talking about
http://www.savarese.org/software/mozie/index.html
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mozzie/
GJR: mozzie works well and doesn't cause problem with assistive tech
<HelderMagalhaes> Trying to find the time to contribute a simple
Batik-based applet viewer. Several things which are somehow blocking,
though... (Have no idea on accessibility tech, didn't have thought of
that).
GJR: AIA - http://accessinteropalliance
DS: talked with MS about API for general API for graphics - ARIA for
diagrams, charts and maps that map to lower level APIs
http://www.accessinteropalliance.com/aboutus/index.html#bios
A: using flash for displaying SVG for complex applications
Bruce: couldn't see the DOM manipulation
GJR: Andrew Kirkpatrick: head of accessiblity at adobe also at AIA
... AIA working groups and projects:
http://www.accessinteropalliance.com/aboutus/index.html#Working
<DavePorter> Thank you for this meeting, and I have to drop off now.
Cheers from Bellevue, WA, USA.
<Manuel> sorry, have to leave. Bye!
JS: want natively done in IE; in meantime, what to do? standalone
plugin has to be downloaded and installed; flash is ubiquitous
GJR: flash has accessibility issues -- being worked on, but still a
MAJOR problem
DS: flash in IE very widely deployed
Bruce: if had great plugin, but from company no one knows, people
might hesitate; if came from Adobe, then would be more likely to use
<HelderMagalhaes> Does anyone knows how far is Java accessible? Is it
an option?
<HelderMagalhaes> (given the large percentage of deployments, not as
good as flash but... :-) )
<Bruce>
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_091
1_ez_ie8.mspx
java has native accessibility built-in, but needs the accessbridge for
windows to work with current windows-based screen readers
http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/index.html
best practices for flash design:
http://www.adobe.com/resources/accessibility/best_practices/bp_fp.html
http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/accessibility/accessbridge/
http://java.sun.com/developer/earlyAccess/accessbridge/
GJR: notes that one can use pure java speech in the GUI, but not
through tools GUI users used to using
shepazu, you are right - today's HTML WG call has been cancelled
when is the next SVGIG call -- the schedule dictates 23 october, but
isn't that during TPAC?
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 9 October 2008 16:57:08 UTC