[Conformance] Minutes for 9 December

Minutes from the Silver Conformance Options subgroup teleconference of
Thursday 9 December are provided here.

* Updated WCAG3 WD with User Generated Section is out:
* We took most of the hour discussing defining conformance vs.
 compliance for our work only!
* We took an initial look at the AGWG Chairs list of deliverables
 assigned to our group.

Hypertext minutes available at:



                                                                                                            – DRAFT –
                                                                                               Silver Conformance Options Subgroup

09 Dec 2021

   IRC log.


          Darryl, GreggVan, janina, jeanne, JF, maryjom, PeterKorn, PeterKorn3, PeterKorn_, shadi

          Bruce_Bailey, Todd, Azlan




    1. Agenda Review & Administrative Items
    2. Agenda Review & Administrative Items
    3. Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates
    4. Deliverables Planning https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables

Meeting minutes

   zakin, next item

  Agenda Review & Administrative Items

   Janina: will have pass down of conformance & compliance - on the agenda
 also AGWG co-chairs desires of us for coming year
 and returning to sampling use cases.
 expect to have 1 more meeting this year, then two weeks off, to resume in Jan.

   <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/

   Jeanne: announcement: WCAG 3 next public working draft has been published!
 user generated content is in it.

   <jeanne> User Generated Content <- https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#user-generated-content

   Janina: with this publication, might now return to other user generated topics, and reply to public feedback on user generated, pointing them to this text

   Shadi: what is the plan for talking about examples wiki page?

   Janina: thought we'd look at that when we look at list of deliverables (AGWG chairs desires)
 see it as a doc we use to drive deliverables, vs. a deliverable of itself

   zakin, next item

  Agenda Review & Administrative Items

   Janina: spoke w/Judy, Jeanne, Rachael. Makes sense to talk about conformance vs. compliance.

   <janina> - Yes I think it would be valuable to differentiate between conformance and

   <janina> compliance. these are very different terms, yet not necessarily well

   <janina> understood, and it would be helpful to make that clarification.

   Janina: exploring how compliance guidance might work could be useful.

   <janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates

   Janina: created a page of just the two definitions (conformance & compliance) for us to work with

   Gregg: question for Judy; did say some to regulators in WCAG 2; we had talked about defining compliance & conformance meant. Thought that
 might be a general W3C item (defining those words).

   Janina: did ask that. "Is it OK to put definitions in the glossary", and she said "sure".

   Gregg: and for terms that would apply outside of WCAG?

   Janina: Doesn't feel we should do that. But can do so for its own documents. And WAI can then consider adoption across WAI.

   Gregg: that's great. Recalls from WCAG 2 timeframe defining such broad terms (not these) wasn't comfortable then.

   Janina: asked specifically about defining such terms for WCAG 3. Reply was that this was OK to do now, especially with explicit labeling (such as "exploratory")
 so, look at available definitions and see if we want to tweak them

   Gregg: "conformance" is usually a section in the standard, vs. being in the glossary. So putting into the glossary seems odd.

   <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#conformance

   Janina: agree there is a section - "how you conform", "how you make claims", "what is in a claim". Different from definition of term.

   <shadi> Peter: like the idea of putting it in the glossary

   <shadi> ...section in itself does not provide the contrast between the two terms

   <shadi> ...could be described in the section but seems cleaner in the glossary

   <janina> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.

   JF: very concerned about term "compliance". Comfortable with "conformance", but "compliance" is legal. Hesitant to see that term used.

   <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about examples of different buckets of compliance and conformance

   JF: Janina said "conformance" to a technical standard. But if WCAG moves forward with some other things, probably drop the word "technical"

   Jeanne: Agree w/John. Don't want to be working in the compliance area. But point of a definition is to start being able to fence off
 what is conformance vs. compliance. What are we including, what are we not touching.

   <JF> +1 Jeanne

   Jeanne: too much using these terms interchangeably. So be able to say - with specific examples - what belongs in conformance vs. compliance (and we aren't touching legal)

   Gregg: Generally not supposed to define words you aren't using normatively ("compliance").

   I seem to have returned.

   Gregg: if we put compliance as note under conformance, it will put them next to each other
 could then have pointer from "compliance" to the note in conformance.

   <shadi> Peter: would like to repeat what I said earlier

   <jeanne> +1 Peter

   <shadi> ...let's try it out rather than debate how to do it

   <shadi> ...get into the actual work rather than meta discussions

   Janina: we have a draft. Let's look at actual definitions.

   <GreggVan> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates

   <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates#Examples

   Gregg: we keep pushing for plain language, so suggest we don't use "cf. compliance"

   Gregg: what do you mean by "cf"? "In contrast with" or "in contrast to". "As opposed to"?

   <jeanne> +1 "rather than"

   Gregg: maybe a separate sentence, like "You conforman to a standard, you comply with a law or regulation"'

   <jeanne> I liked Greggs two sentences - You comply with laws, you conform to standards

   <Zakim> PeterKorn_, you wanted to discuss "conformance"

   <shadi> Peter: like the idea of a sentence somewhere

   <shadi> ...maybe at the end of compliance say "this is distinct from conformance, see definition below"

   <shadi> ...and vice-versa

   <shadi> ...also to drop "are said to be" phrases

   <shadi> ...not as certain about the inclusion of the Marrakesh Treaty

   <shadi> ...because it doesn't reference WCAG

   Janina: purpose is to be rigorous in our terminology. Especially in conformance section.
 and especially what is left to regulatory environments
 likes having "You conform to a standard, you comply to a regulation" as a note.
 not going to insist keeping Marrakesh Treaty. Just wanting to note that those have force of law

   Darryl: thinks we are heading in right direction. But losing dichotomy between them.
 maybe adding the phrase "a standard does not define legal compliance". Just to further drive home that they are separate.

   Jeanne: simplify? Like Gregg's wording. Defi. of compliance too complex & a distraction. Would prefer to see that simpler.

   <shadi> +1 to simplifying

   Jeanne: suggests we go with Gregg's defiitions

   Gregg: <reads "POSIBLE ALTERNATE FORMAT" section on wiki page>

   <JF> +1 to include

   <shadi> Peter: "may involve conformance to a standard"?

   <shadi> Gregg: or may include

   <shadi> Peter: because some laws may have indirections

   <shadi> ...like reasonable accommodation

   <shadi> ...or alternate ways of complying

   Janina: have a nit - at the top thought I heard "provision" singular. Confirmed it is plural.
 missing piece: notion that we are definition for our documents; other places (e.g. elsewhere in W3C) may define differently.

   Gregg: thinks that is better at the top of the glossary - that the glossary is scoped to WCAG 3.

   <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to delete sentence on levels

   Jeanne: a little disappointed because it is more complicated to what Gregg said earlier. "Act of adherence" isn't plain language.
 also concerned about "different levels of conformance" because the larger group hasn't condensed no that yet.

   Shadi: +1 to Jeanne. Only need the first sentence.
 even if defines different levels, conformance to it means conforming to a level. So don't need level here.

   <shadi> Peter: maybe drop "technical" because some specs are not technical

   <shadi> ...disagree with Shadi, like the second sentence

   <shadi> ...because it contrasts with compliance

   MaryJo: Q about word "provisions". Why not just say "requirements"?

   <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say - best format for

   <shadi> Gregg: removed "technical"

   <GreggVan> "all definitions in the glossary are definitions of the terms as used in this document

   <shadi> ...added note for top of glossary

   <shadi> ...added rest of into a second paragraph

   <maryjom> +1

   <shadi> ...change provisions to requirements?

   <shadi> Janina: yes

   <PeterKorn3> Shadi: could move the bracket "as contrasted..." up into the sentence

   <PeterKorn3> ...doesn't have to be an entiry that conforms. Could be object or group.

   <PeterKorn3> Gregg: parenthetical is supplemental info. Wouldn't put it into the base statement.

   <PeterKorn3> JF: riffing on Shadi. "Entities" may not be the right direction. Isn't it the "content that conforms"?

   <PeterKorn3> +1 to that notion

   <PeterKorn3> Gregg: agree with JF. Helps to separate conformance & compliance. Content conforms to standard; entity complies with the law.

   <PeterKorn3> ...also helps get people's heads back around. People don't conform. Content conforms.

   <PeterKorn3> Janina: ask that we look at next agendum.

  Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates

   <janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables

  Deliverables Planning https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables

   <janina> rrsagent make minutes

    Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 185 (Thu Dec 2 18:51:55 2021 UTC).


   Maybe present: Gregg, MaryJo


Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

Received on Friday, 10 December 2021 06:28:06 UTC