W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-silver@w3.org > June 2019

Re: Conformance and method 'levels'

From: Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:26:16 +0200
To: public-silver@w3.org
Message-ID: <673d7005-0608-74b9-0706-7ea0df265794@testkreis.de>
Hi John
I would take issue with the level 1. Automated tests being valid on its 
own for adding any 'points' to a score. Except perhaps for 3.1.1 
Language of Page and 4.1.1 Parsing, nearly *all* SCs that can be partly 
tested automatically require an addtional human check or verificationof 
automatic results(weeding out the false negatives as well as the false 
positives)to arrive at a valid conformance assessment. An automatic 
check can show non-conformance for pages where there are clear issues 
(field without accName, no img alt etc.) but misses instances where 
non-conformance is caused by the other half (non-descriptive alt, label, 
or captioning; wrong label referenced, wrong state communicated etc.). 
Automatic tools are great heuristic helpers but cannot be relied upon to 
determine conformance (except for a few SCs) and will have blind spots 
when used to determine non-conformance.

Am 24.06.2019 um 01:53 schrieb John Foliot:
> Hi Charles,
> In a spread-sheet that I've circulated to a limited group, I've 
> expanded on some of those thoughts.
> As you note, testing (and subsequently "fixing") some issues are 
> easier than others. I've broken that 'development/verification' 
> process into three 'buckets':
>  1. Automated tests: these are as simple as a "click of the button",
>     and it would give you a conformance report on those things that
>     can be automatically tested for (yes, Deque has a rules engine,
>     but most of the major testing platforms are participating in the
>     ACT TF, where they are 'standardizing', if not all of the test,
>     certainly the format by which those tests are written and expressed).
>     Given that these requirements are "easy" to identify and fix, they
>     should accrue a smaller number of "points"
>  2. Human *Verification*: these require more of a human
>     intervention/cognition requirement (eg. verify that the alt text
>     makes sense in context, ensure that caption & audio description
>     files are accurate, verify if a table is being used for layout or
>     for tabular data, etc.). In these cases, the amount of effort and
>     time (aka "resources") is greater (measured on a scale?), and so
>     likely occur less frequently.
>     Because these requirements are 'harder' to address (and so likely
>     less frequently), they accrue more "points" than category 1 above.
>  3. Finally, the 'hard' tests - the tests and requirements that
>     require human cognition and testing (i.e. cognitive
>     walk-through's, etc.). These types of verification's are complex,
>     and 'expensive' to perform, but deliver great value and really
>     drive the site to best accessibility.
>     Because these types of tests are the hardest to perform, they also
>     accrue the most "points".
> (As some real-world feedback, at Deque, we have both tools and a 
> process for the first two categories of testing today: our axe-core 
> rules engine, which is also the heart of our free browser extensions, 
> and another tool that also provides a 'guided walk-through' for 
> verifying the rest of the SC that cannot be fully mechanically tested)
>     > as JF  points out, means the point score is only meaningful
>     until the next day the site is published.
> "Scoring" a web site the way I am envisioning would then require some 
> kind of centralized data-base, and (yes) some additional tooling to 
> process that data. The 'scoring tool' totals the scores from each of 
> the three categories above, to arrive at the final score. As such, I 
> envision the score to be dynamic in nature.
> Charles is right, time takes a toll on the score. The automated tests 
> can be as frequent as "now", the secondary set of tests can happen 
> with some frequency (weekly?), however the 'hard' tests will happen 
> infrequently. To address this concern, I've also thought about perhaps 
> "stale-dating" tests results, with the older they become, the less 
> valuable they are to your total score.
> As a straw-man example, consider the third (hard) category of tests. 
> In that scenario, I could envision something like losing 10% of the 
> score value every 90 days (3 months). If you do a full-court press on 
> the "hard" tests to get a high score on site launch (for example), but 
> then never do those tests again, then over time, they deteriorate 
> (depreciate). So if you score 300 points in this category on January 
> 1st, by April first they are only worth 270 (or, perhaps if they 
> scored 300 out of a possible 400, then they'd lose 10% of the 400 
> score, thus 260), by the end of 6 months they've depreciated by 20% 
> (so either a score of 240 [270 - another 30 = 240], or 220 (260 - 
> another 40 = 220). Even if the site remains 'static', with zero 
> changes in those time-frames, you still lose the points, because while 
> your site may have not evolved, the web (and techniques) do.
> We can model this out in different ways to see what works best, but 
> the fundamental idea is that over time, you lose points because your 
> tests results are getting "stale", so to keep up your score, you have 
> to continually do the "harder" testing too.
> Thoughts?
> JF
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 4:23 PM Hall, Charles (DET-MRM) 
> <Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com <mailto:Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com>> wrote:
>     I like the idea of 2 currencies.
>     The ephemeral nature of the web as JF  points out, means the point
>     score is only meaningful until the next day the site is published.
>     The core problems that the proposed model are trying to solve are
>     all the “it depends” and “it’s partially conformant” cases while
>     framing the model in a way that it encourages better practices
>     versus always aiming for the minimum.
>     With 2 currencies, we could have something of a “raw score” to be
>     regularly evaluated, and an “achievements score” which reflects if
>     those better practices occurred.
>     I was originally going to simply reply to John’s message that I
>     thought the frequency of evaluation issue could be mitigated by
>     these practices, as they tend to be less ephemeral than the
>     resulting sites. Example: having 10% or more of your design and
>     development teams made up of people with disabilities; or
>     regularly including participation of people with disabilities in
>     your usability testing; or writing tests that specifically
>     consider intersectional needs are each the sort of encouraged
>     practices that are less likely to change frequently. However, this
>     dismisses the millions of small business sites out there that have
>     no design or development teams or usability testing or awareness
>     of intersectional human functional needs. It biases the model
>     toward large organizations.
>     In the end, there should be a threshold score for the minimum and
>     a way to measure anything beyond it *based on human impact *and
>     not based on the resources it took the author / organization to
>     make that impact. I can use a free theme on a free platform and
>     get free hosting and sell widgets. If I make the buttons light
>     grey on white, I lose points. If I write descriptions at a fifth
>     grade reading level, I gain points. If I can’t afford to run
>     usability testing and compensate participants, I should still be
>     able to achieve more than a minimum score.
>     *Charles Hall* // Senior UX Architect
>     charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com
>     <mailto:charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com?subject=Note%20From%20Signature>
>     w 248.203.8723
>     m 248.225.8179
>     360 W Maple Ave, Birmingham MI 48009
>     mrm-mccann.com <https://www.mrm-mccann.com/>
>     MRM//McCann
>     Relationship Is Our Middle Name
>     Ad Age Agency A-List 2016, 2017, 2019
>     Ad Age Creativity Innovators 2016, 2017
>     Ad Age B-to-B Agency of the Year 2018
>     North American Agency of the Year, Cannes 2016
>     Leader in Gartner Magic Quadrant 2017, 2018, 2019
>     Most Creatively Effective Agency Network in the World, Effie 2018,
>     2019
>     *From: *"Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.com
>     <mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.com>>
>     *Date: *Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 10:33 AM
>     *To: *John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com
>     <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>, "Hall, Charles (DET-MRM)"
>     <Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com <mailto:Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com>>
>     *Cc: *Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com
>     <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>, Silver Task Force
>     <public-silver@w3.org <mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>, Andrew
>     Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
>     *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Re: Conformance and method 'levels'
>     Just some thoughts:
>     I do like all of the ideas from all of you but are they really
>     feasible?
>     With feasible I mean in terms of time to test, money spend, the
>     difficulty of compiling a score and the expertise to judge all of
>     this?
>     I would love to see a simple framework with clear categories for
>     valuing content, like:​
>       * ​Original WCAG score => pass/fail                         ​=
>         67/100
>       * How often do pass/fails occur => not often / often / very often
>       * = 90/100
>       * What is the severity of the fails => not that bad / bad /
>         blocking
>       * = 70/10
>       * How easy it is to finish a task => easy / average / hard​​    
>              = 65/100
>       * What is the quality of the translations / alternative text,
>         etc.         = 72/100
>       * How understandable is the content => easy / average / hard
>       * = 55/100
>     Total = 69/100
>     And then also thinking about feasibility of this kind of measuring.
>     Questions like: will it take 6 times as long to test as an audit
>     now? Will only a few people in the world be able to judge all
>     categories sufficiently?
>     Cheers,
>     Jake
>     ​
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:*John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com
>     <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, June 22, 2019 12:36 AM
>     *To:* Hall, Charles (DET-MRM)
>     *Cc:* Alastair Campbell; Silver Task Force; Andrew Kirkpatrick
>     *Subject:* Re: Conformance and method 'levels'
>     Hi Charles,
>     I for one am under the same understanding, and I see it as far
>     more granular than just Bronze, Silver or Gold plateaus, but that
>     rather, through the accumulation of points (by doing good things)
>     you can advance from Bronze, to Silver to Gold - not for
>     individual pages, but rather **for your site**.  (I've come to
>     conceptualize it as similar to your FICO score, which numerically
>     improves or degrades over time, yet your score is still always
>     inside of a "range" from Bad to Excellent: increasing your score
>     from 638 to 687 is commendable and a good stretch, yet you are
>     still only - and remain - in the "Fair" range, so stretch harder
>     still).
>     image.png
>     [alt: a semi-circle graph showing the 4 levels of FICO scoring:
>     Bad, Fair, Good, and Excellent, along with the range of score
>     values associated to each section. Bad is a range of 300 points to
>     629 points, Fair ranges from 630 to 689 points, Good ranges from
>     690 to 719 points, and excellent ranges from 720 to 850 points.]
>     I've also arrived at the notion that your score is never going to
>     be a "one-and-done" numeric value, but that your score will change
>     based on the most current data available* (in part because we all
>     know that web sites [sic] are living breathing organic things,
>     with content changes being pushed at regular - in some cases daily
>     or hourly - basis.)
>     This then also leads me to conclude that your "Accessibility
>     Score" will be a floating points total with those points being
>     impacted not only by specific "techniques", but equally (if not
>     more importantly) by functional outcomes. And so the model of:
>       * /Bronze: EITHER provide AD or transcript/
>       * /Silver: provide AD and transcript/
>       * /Gold: Provide live transcript or live AD./
>     ...feels rather simplistic to me. Much of our documentation
>     */_speaks of scores_/* (which I perceive to be numeric in nature),
>     while what Alastair is proposing is simply Good, Better, Best -
>     with no actual "score" involved.
>     Additionally, nowhere in Alastair's metric is there a measurement
>     for "quality" of the caption, transcript or audio description
>     (should there be? I believe yes), nor for that matter (in this
>     particular instance) a recognition of the two very varied
>     approaches to providing 'support assets' to the video: in-band or
>     out-of-band (where in-band = the assets are bundled inside of the
>     MP4 wrapper, versus out-of-band, where captions and Audio
>     Descriptions are declared via the <track> element.) From a
>     "functional" perspective, providing the assets in-band, while
>     slightly harder to do production-wise, is a more robust technique
>     (for lots of reasons), so... do we reward authors with a "better"
>     score if they use the in-band method? And if yes, how many more
>     "points" do they get (and why that number?) If no, why not? For
>     transcripts, does providing the transcript as structured HTML earn
>     you more points over providing the transcript as a .txt file?  A
>     PDF? (WCAG 2.x doesn't seem to care about that) Should it?
>     (* This is already a very long email, so I will just state that I
>     have some additional ideas about stale-dating data as well, as I
>     suspect a cognitive walk-through result from 4 years ago likely
>     has little-to-no value today...)
>     ******************
>     In fact, if we're handing out points, how many points **do** you
>     get for minimal functional requirement for "Accessible Media" (aka
>     "Bronze"), and what do I need to do to increase my score to Silver
>     (not on a single asset, but across the "range" of content -
>     a.k.a.pages - scoped by your conformance claim) versus Gold?
>     Do you get the same number of points for ensuring that the
>     language of the page has been declared (which to my mind is the
>     easiest SC to meet) - does providing the language of the document
>     have the same impact on users as ensuring that Audio Descriptions
>     are present and accurate? If (like me) you believe one to be far
>     more important than the other, how many points do either
>     requirement start with (as a representation of "perfect" for that
>     requirement)? For that matter, do we count up or down in our
>     scoring (counting up = minimal score that improves, counting down
>     = maximum score that degrades)?
>     (ProTip: I'd also revisit the MAUR
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_media-2Daccessibility-2Dreqs_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=BwkDmIeS0PbxmI-bwY_xZgpBtBEX7TGcdrWWrRVX-5o&s=lQYYjFMh6MH0rP57lX5cncyVi3ToRXJV0QUq4mgKu2g&e=>
>     for ideas on how to improve your score for Accessible Media, which
>     is more than just captions and audio description).
>     Then, of course, is the conundrum of "page scoring" versus "site
>     scoring", where a video asset is (likely) displayed on a "page",
>     and perhaps there are multiple videos on multiple pages, with
>     accessibility support ranging from "Pretty good" on one example,
>     to "OMG that is horrible" on another example... how do we score
>     that on a site-level basis? If I have 5 videos on my site, and one
>     has no captions, transcripts or Audio Descriptions (AD), two have
>     captions and no AD or transcripts, one has captions and a
>     transcript but no AD, and one has all the required bits (caption,
>     AD, transcript)... what's my score? Am I Gold, Bronze, or Silver?
>     Why?
>     And if I clean up 3 of those five videos above, but leave the
>     other two as-is, do I see an increase in my score? If yes, by how
>     much? Why? Do I get more points for cleaning up the video that
>     lacks AD _and_ transcript versus not as many points for cleaning
>     up the the video that just needs audio descriptions? Does adding
>     audio descriptions accrue more points than just adding a
>     transcript? Can points, as numeric values, also include decimal
>     points? (i.e. 16.25 'points' out of a maximum number available of
>     25)? Is this the path we are on?
>     *Scoring is *everything**if we are moving to a Good, Better, Best
>     model for all of our web accessibility conformance reporting.
>     Saying you are at "Silver", without knowing explicitly how you got
>     there will be a major hurdle that we'll need to be able to explain.
>     It is for these reasons that I have volunteered to help work on
>     the conformance model, as I am of the opinion that all the other
>     migration work will eventually run into this scoring issue as a
>     major blocker: no matter which existing SC I consider, I soon
>     arrive at variants of the questions above (and more), all related
>     to scalability, techniques, impact on different user-groups, and
>     our move from page conformance reporting to site conformance
>     reporting, and a sliding scale of "points" that we've yet to
>     tackle - points that will come to represent Bronze, Silver and Gold.
>     JF
>     On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:53 PM Hall, Charles (DET-MRM)
>     <Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com <mailto:Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com>>
>     wrote:
>         I understand the logical parallel.
>         However, my understanding (perhaps influenced by my own
>         intent) of the point system is not directly proportional to
>         the number of features (supported by methods) added or by the
>         difficulty associated with adding them, but instead based on
>         meeting functional needs. In this example, transcription,
>         captioning and audio description (recorded) may all be
>         implemented but still only have sufficient points to earn
>         silver. While addressing the content itself to be more
>         understandable by people with cognitive issues or
>         intersectional needs would be required for sufficient points
>         to earn gold. The difference being people and not methods.
>         Am I alone in this view?
>         *Charles Hall* // Senior UX Architect
>         charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com
>         <mailto:charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com?subject=Note%20From%20Signature>
>         w 248.203.8723
>         m 248.225.8179
>         360 W Maple Ave, Birmingham MI 48009
>         mrm-mccann.com <https://www.mrm-mccann.com/>
>         MRM//McCann
>         Relationship Is Our Middle Name
>         Ad Age Agency A-List 2016, 2017, 2019
>         Ad Age Creativity Innovators 2016, 2017
>         Ad Age B-to-B Agency of the Year 2018
>         North American Agency of the Year, Cannes 2016
>         Leader in Gartner Magic Quadrant 2017, 2018, 2019
>         Most Creatively Effective Agency Network in the World, Effie
>         2018, 2019
>         *From: *Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com
>         <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
>         *Date: *Friday, June 21, 2019 at 12:01 PM
>         *To: *Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
>         *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Conformance and method 'levels'
>         *Resent-From: *Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-silver@w3.org>>
>         *Resent-Date: *Friday, June 21, 2019 at 12:01 PM
>         Hi everyone,
>         I think this is a useful thread to be aware of when thinking
>         about conformance and how different methods might be set at
>         different levels:
>         https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/782
>         <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_w3c_wcag_issues_782&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=qRlBlL2XbaOAr9ZQ1gk036BFzRHfv3et7ZuRCfnYttk&s=81tZlSYylHRs1Awy147BMGnUzy0MuO6s7Qk5IO0FhoU&e=>
>         It is about multimedia access, so the 1.2.x section in WCAG
>         2.x. You might think that it is fairly straightforward as the
>         solutions are fairly cut & dried (captions, transcripts, AD etc.)
>         However, the tricky bit is at what level you require different
>         solutions.
>         If you had a guideline such as “A user does not need to see in
>         order to understand visual multimedia content”, then Patrick’s
>         levelling in one of the comments
>         <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_w3c_wcag_issues_782-23issuecomment-2D504038948&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=qRlBlL2XbaOAr9ZQ1gk036BFzRHfv3et7ZuRCfnYttk&s=eQu0fdZeTflKCDpdR_3mguGA09aq52UmWnQTBdPRhjE&e=>
>         makes sense:
>           * Bronze: EITHER provide AD or transcript
>           * Silver: provide AD and transcript
>           * Gold: Provide live transcript or live AD.
>         I raise this as if you read the thread, you’ll see how the
>         levels impacted the drafting of the guidelines, and I think
>         we’ll have a similar (or more complex?) dynamic for the
>         scoring in Silver, and how methods are drafted.
>         Kind regards,
>         -Alastair
>         -- 
>         www.nomensa.com
>         <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nomensa.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=qRlBlL2XbaOAr9ZQ1gk036BFzRHfv3et7ZuRCfnYttk&s=KYOhqBbA2ZqPfWqucl5pHqD50APEkM1wkeBHHBrRswc&e=>
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>     -- 
>     *John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC
>     Representative
>     Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
>     deque.com
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__deque.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=BwkDmIeS0PbxmI-bwY_xZgpBtBEX7TGcdrWWrRVX-5o&s=TceA7HSWzOu1xxklWK4mDijg3GGMiBNJqWUbvslwfQw&e=>
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> *​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC 
> Representative
> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
> deque.com <http://deque.com/>

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Received on Monday, 24 June 2019 13:26:46 UTC

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