- From: Hall, Charles (DET-MRM) <Charles.Hall@mrm-mccann.com>
- Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 18:04:01 +0000
- To: Jeanne Spellman <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com>, Silver Task Force <public-silver@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <8D8AA19A-C559-4F72-BF5C-5A180E08F9C2@mrm-mccann.com>
RE: “…shift responsibility away from authors and toward user agents and AT.”
There is a design principle, ‘Utility » Priority of Constituencies’ that states:
“In case of conflict, consider users over authors over implementors over specifiers over theoretical purity. In other words costs or difficulties to the user should be given more weight than costs to authors; which in turn should be given more weight than costs to implementors; which should be given more weight than costs to authors of the spec itself, which should be given more weight than those proposing changes for theoretical reasons alone. Of course, it is preferred to make things better for multiple constituencies at once.”
https://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#priority-of-constituencies
Since the priority is always the user, our goal should be to shift responsibilities as far left as possible. As responsibility is shifted right or deferred downstream, the impact to the user grows.
Cheers,
Charles Hall // Senior UX Architect
charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com<mailto:charles.hall@mrm-mccann.com?subject=Note%20From%20Signature>
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On 10/22/18, 11:37 AM, "Jeanne Spellman" <jspellman@spellmanconsulting.com> wrote:
Formatted minutes:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_2018_10_22-2Dsilver-2Dminutes.html&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=jAFhnMmAIy5W0td8xr9vl-UCVH8Og-wf-4qfktEhgIQ&e=
Text of Minutes:
[1]W3C
[1] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=ceEJS0x4iDh7qs2k9uKPxHYkj2iwwW6lptjObl_AQnw&e=
- DRAFT -
Silver TPAC Meeting Day 1
22 Oct 2018
Attendees
Present
Charles, jeanne, anne_thyme, Wilco, audrey,
RedRoxProjects_, shawn
Regrets
Chair
Shawn, jeanne
Scribe
jeanne
Contents
* [2]Topics
1. [3]back to conformance
2. [4]MIscellaneous
* [5]Summary of Action Items
* [6]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
[reviewing slides] and introduction to Silver for observers
<mikeCrabb> Hi, does anyone know what the call in details are
for the TPAC meeting today?
<Lauriat> Presentation, starting at Slide 22:
[7]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_presentation_d_1V-5FnYD27N6kx8gRha0rrd&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=jokZ_QAWB_NTMmaH7Se1YiVDzrGaE55IIQv5QIIUEb8&e=
QK8aKyvg7kKXu6rs44We7IU/edit#slide=id.g44e0248110_0_0
[7] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_presentation_d_1V-5FnYD27N6kx8gRha0rrdQK8aKyvg7kKXu6rs44We7IU_edit-23slide-3Did.g44e0248110-5F0-5F0&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=z0CZ5QHGmnJkWhgg6oVCrOyiaLOYtjAncQvIWVoG5tE&e=
<Charles> I have a meeting conflict for a while, so I am going
to leave the audio on low in the background and keep IRC open.
Lurking mode.
[conversation about ways that SIlver can include tests
Anne: ACT is moving away from tell people a test procedure and
more about the rules for what the results of the test should
be.
Amy: When we were doing the framework for digital musical
instruments, we talked about functional needs -- that keeps
people from only doing the items that are only for blind
people.
Anne: The Monitoring decision was divided into seven functional
disability areas.
Audrey: I disagree with splitting it by dividing it by
disability or functional disability. People were asking what
disabilities have a greater priority than other disabilities.
Amy: Accessibility has to be built in, rather than something
bolted on. WHen you design with priorities for disabilities (A,
AA, AAA) then it encourages accessibility bolted on at the end.
... be aware that you have to be able to disable motion,
because people forget about this.
<Charles> wherever possible, we have tried to avoid naming a
disability or disability category. instead, the hope is to
reference the human need, like: “cannot see”. where necessary,
the human needs combined, like “cannot see or hear”
[8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1XDOmjQkMRqQ0XKiKYA-2DmDAuA&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=mMcZvCTX0pJ4FNGvUVa3UTPRmTZ6p98b3_XThhXgetQ&e=
40oHtaXNl1H0NXLcV80/edit#heading=h.2v0cyae6s4ax
[8] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1XDOmjQkMRqQ0XKiKYA-2DmDAuA40oHtaXNl1H0NXLcV80_edit-23heading-3Dh.2v0cyae6s4ax&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=L-9cXFojSgx9DW2juULoDC_DdAfCikh__jXHPztB5zQ&e=
THis is the write up on usability testing from the Silver
Design Sprint
Amy: I used a scale for testing where if you drop it 10 times
and it doesn't break, it scores more highly than something you
drop once and it breaks.
Shawn: Did I do it well enough that I can move on? through the
range of "I want my users to have an awesome experience"
... We are moving toward a task basis. We may have to rewrite
everything to go there, to avoid the problem of having to do
usability testing of every component. But today we have
component level testing. We have to bridge the gap.
... Do we keep an element-focused conformance model, or do we
rewrite everything to be task-based and let go of all the
valuable existing guidance we have? I hope we can find a way to
bridge this and not have to go to one extreme or another.
... the way we do it today is run the AXE library so that we
get feedback at each step of the task.
Anne: But what about the other 10,000 pages? You can test a
maximum of 10 tasks.
... I want to see both -- people should also get points from
passing an automated test of their 10k pages
Wilco: What is the problem we are trying to solve?
Shawn: Sites that have technical conformance but users with
disabilities can't use them.
Anne: Will every task failure in a usability test be a
violation?
Shawn: In the example we did at the Design Sprint, if it
doesn't work for every user, then it would be more of a
usability issue. I run into it often where a reported bug turns
out to be a usability issue.
Anne: I worry that it will be watered down because we are doing
usability. If the boundaries are not clear, then it will be a
problem.
... I am worried about blurred lines.
back to conformance
Wilco: how do you expect this to work?
jeanne: we expect to have guideline for alt text. THen there
would be methods that would have test results.
Wilco: Writing test results will be harder than writing
procedures
Shawn: Example of alt text in Google docs which doesn't use a
DOM that there are existing Techniques for.
Wilco: Alt text, for graphics, does it have an accessible name?
rrsgent, make minutes
Wilco: ACT rules format, we know how to write a rule and what
it means
After the break, we want to see some of the ACT rules.
ACT Rules
<Wilco> [9]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__w3c.github.io_wcag-2Dact_act-2Drules-2Dformat.html&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=O0_84CXKaW81J-iJRRcHhiLnltoYXA6zrMxKPYy5mYc&e=
[9] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__w3c.github.io_wcag-2Dact_act-2Drules-2Dformat.html&d=DwIDaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6i2dv-WpJzmR-w48cl75l3c&m=kO4obfS75HCZ_KtwRVyCugDs87v2jnzc260fTXHWOgc&s=O0_84CXKaW81J-iJRRcHhiLnltoYXA6zrMxKPYy5mYc&e=
WIlco: Section 4 describes rules
... atomic rules that test specific parts of a web page
... composite rules that combine atomic rules
... accessibility requirements are for organizations that have
to follow internal or local standards.
... In Silver, passing a rule might give you points. Mroe
points at 100% and maybe less for partials conformance.
... aspects under test are things that you would have to test
Shawn: Do you include specific rules from other specifications
in these rules?
Wilco: You have to declare your sources. If you don't have
access to particular tools or if you are functionally disabled,
you may not be able to do this test.
Shawn: The HTML spec requires an alt attribute, the ARIA spec
has a role of menu and it can only have child elements (for
example), so it doesn't need to be in the accessibility
guidelines.
... Did you code it correctly?
Wilco: We don't do that.
Anne: We are discussing whether we should spellcheck for ARIA?
Wilco: When you develop a product, you should specify the
accessibility for that platform
Shawn: We want to have the company developing the platform
specify as much of the accessibility as possible and we should
reference it.
Wilco: we want to test by a procedureal system and not a
hierarchical system, which is why we don't have a composite of
composites
... so a common use is that people set up either/or atomic
rules and the composite rule is if it passes either or, it
passes.
... applicability MUST be described objectively, unambiguously
and in plain language
Anne: We prioritize, unambiguous and link out to definitions.
Wilco: We say "visible" and link to a very specific definition
of "visible"
... because it is objective doesn't necessarily mean it is is
automatable.
... what you should look at is objective, but the purpose of
the element may be subjective
... all of the expectations must be true
... the logic of the expectation of composite rules must be
spelled out.
... rules always have edge cases. The edge cases have to be
included in the rules, so the rule may not be 100% accurate,
and that's ok in many cases. It needs to be transparent. '
... if there are major accessibility support concerns, that
should be included in the rule.
Shawn: How do you keep it up to date?
Wilco: Rules get out of date. THey are informative so they can
be updated.
... I have been looking at a project that looks at tests that
are being run actively on assistive technology..
Shawn: Can you link to the bugs?
... that would flag it so that it can be specific, targeted and
can have a bug filed against it.
Wilco: Test cases
... accuracy. Accuracy is difficult, because things change all
the time.
WIlco shows rule from auto-wcag.github.io for 4.1.2
Jeanne asks if we can link to it in our Silver demo.
Wilco: yes
Shawn: How do you score it?
Wilco: It maps to WCAG, how you score it is up to you. There
are different reporting systems. Most of the rules only tell
you if you fail, they don't tell you if you passed.
Shawn: How to write a rule that requires human judgement?
Wilco: Mostly we don't, but one person is working on a rule
that has a human judgement.
[shows]
Wilco: WE have to make the problems as small as we can get
them, and then resolve the interpretations.
Anne: One of the rules was written by the Norwegian government
agency, and then started assessing fines for the organizations
that didn't comply.
MIscellaneous
Wilco: Over lunch I talked about adding methods that could
incur points for using accessible content management systems
and IDE.
... If you can encourage browser vendors to make focus visible
or to override the problems with single key shortcuts, then
shift responsibility away from authors and toward user agents
and AT.
Title: SIlver TPAC Meeting Day 1
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
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Received on Monday, 22 October 2018 18:04:37 UTC