Minutes of Silver TPAC meeting Day 1

Formatted minutes:
https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-silver-minutes.html


Text of Minutes:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                        Silver TPAC Meeting Day 1

22 Oct 2018

Attendees

    Present
           Charles, jeanne, anne_thyme, Wilco, audrey,
           RedRoxProjects_, shawn

    Regrets

    Chair
           Shawn, jeanne

    Scribe
           jeanne

Contents

      * [2]Topics
          1. [3]back to conformance
          2. [4]MIscellaneous
      * [5]Summary of Action Items
      * [6]Summary of Resolutions
      __________________________________________________________

    [reviewing slides] and introduction to Silver for observers

    <mikeCrabb> Hi, does anyone know what the call in details are
    for the TPAC meeting today?

    <Lauriat> Presentation, starting at Slide 22:
    [7]https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1V_nYD27N6kx8gRha0rrd
    QK8aKyvg7kKXu6rs44We7IU/edit#slide=id.g44e0248110_0_0

       [7] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1V_nYD27N6kx8gRha0rrdQK8aKyvg7kKXu6rs44We7IU/edit#slide=id.g44e0248110_0_0

    <Charles> I have a meeting conflict for a while, so I am going
    to leave the audio on low in the background and keep IRC open.
    Lurking mode.

    [conversation about ways that SIlver can include tests

    Anne: ACT is moving away from tell people a test procedure and
    more about the rules for what the results of the test should
    be.

    Amy: When we were doing the framework for digital musical
    instruments, we talked about functional needs -- that keeps
    people from only doing the items that are only for blind
    people.

    Anne: The Monitoring decision was divided into seven functional
    disability areas.

    Audrey: I disagree with splitting it by dividing it by
    disability or functional disability. People were asking what
    disabilities have a greater priority than other disabilities.

    Amy: Accessibility has to be built in, rather than something
    bolted on. WHen you design with priorities for disabilities (A,
    AA, AAA) then it encourages accessibility bolted on at the end.
    ... be aware that you have to be able to disable motion,
    because people forget about this.

    <Charles> wherever possible, we have tried to avoid naming a
    disability or disability category. instead, the hope is to
    reference the human need, like: “cannot see”. where necessary,
    the human needs combined, like “cannot see or hear”

    [8]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XDOmjQkMRqQ0XKiKYA-mDAuA
    40oHtaXNl1H0NXLcV80/edit#heading=h.2v0cyae6s4ax

       [8] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XDOmjQkMRqQ0XKiKYA-mDAuA40oHtaXNl1H0NXLcV80/edit#heading=h.2v0cyae6s4ax

    THis is the write up on usability testing from the Silver
    Design Sprint

    Amy: I used a scale for testing where if you drop it 10 times
    and it doesn't break, it scores more highly than something you
    drop once and it breaks.

    Shawn: Did I do it well enough that I can move on? through the
    range of "I want my users to have an awesome experience"
    ... We are moving toward a task basis. We may have to rewrite
    everything to go there, to avoid the problem of having to do
    usability testing of every component. But today we have
    component level testing. We have to bridge the gap.
    ... Do we keep an element-focused conformance model, or do we
    rewrite everything to be task-based and let go of all the
    valuable existing guidance we have? I hope we can find a way to
    bridge this and not have to go to one extreme or another.
    ... the way we do it today is run the AXE library so that we
    get feedback at each step of the task.

    Anne: But what about the other 10,000 pages? You can test a
    maximum of 10 tasks.
    ... I want to see both -- people should also get points from
    passing an automated test of their 10k pages

    Wilco: What is the problem we are trying to solve?

    Shawn: Sites that have technical conformance but users with
    disabilities can't use them.

    Anne: Will every task failure in a usability test be a
    violation?

    Shawn: In the example we did at the Design Sprint, if it
    doesn't work for every user, then it would be more of a
    usability issue. I run into it often where a reported bug turns
    out to be a usability issue.

    Anne: I worry that it will be watered down because we are doing
    usability. If the boundaries are not clear, then it will be a
    problem.
    ... I am worried about blurred lines.

back to conformance

    Wilco: how do you expect this to work?

    jeanne: we expect to have guideline for alt text. THen there
    would be methods that would have test results.

    Wilco: Writing test results will be harder than writing
    procedures

    Shawn: Example of alt text in Google docs which doesn't use a
    DOM that there are existing Techniques for.

    Wilco: Alt text, for graphics, does it have an accessible name?

    rrsgent, make minutes

    Wilco: ACT rules format, we know how to write a rule and what
    it means

    After the break, we want to see some of the ACT rules.

    ACT Rules

    <Wilco> [9]https://w3c.github.io/wcag-act/act-rules-format.html

       [9] https://w3c.github.io/wcag-act/act-rules-format.html

    WIlco: Section 4 describes rules
    ... atomic rules that test specific parts of a web page
    ... composite rules that combine atomic rules
    ... accessibility requirements are for organizations that have
    to follow internal or local standards.
    ... In Silver, passing a rule might give you points. Mroe
    points at 100% and maybe less for partials conformance.
    ... aspects under test are things that you would have to test

    Shawn: Do you include specific rules from other specifications
    in these rules?

    Wilco: You have to declare your sources. If you don't have
    access to particular tools or if you are functionally disabled,
    you may not be able to do this test.

    Shawn: The HTML spec requires an alt attribute, the ARIA spec
    has a role of menu and it can only have child elements (for
    example), so it doesn't need to be in the accessibility
    guidelines.
    ... Did you code it correctly?

    Wilco: We don't do that.

    Anne: We are discussing whether we should spellcheck for ARIA?

    Wilco: When you develop a product, you should specify the
    accessibility for that platform

    Shawn: We want to have the company developing the platform
    specify as much of the accessibility as possible and we should
    reference it.

    Wilco: we want to test by a procedureal system and not a
    hierarchical system, which is why we don't have a composite of
    composites
    ... so a common use is that people set up either/or atomic
    rules and the composite rule is if it passes either or, it
    passes.
    ... applicability MUST be described objectively, unambiguously
    and in plain language

    Anne: We prioritize, unambiguous and link out to definitions.

    Wilco: We say "visible" and link to a very specific definition
    of "visible"
    ... because it is objective doesn't necessarily mean it is is
    automatable.
    ... what you should look at is objective, but the purpose of
    the element may be subjective
    ... all of the expectations must be true
    ... the logic of the expectation of composite rules must be
    spelled out.
    ... rules always have edge cases. The edge cases have to be
    included in the rules, so the rule may not be 100% accurate,
    and that's ok in many cases. It needs to be transparent. '
    ... if there are major accessibility support concerns, that
    should be included in the rule.

    Shawn: How do you keep it up to date?

    Wilco: Rules get out of date. THey are informative so they can
    be updated.
    ... I have been looking at a project that looks at tests that
    are being run actively on assistive technology..

    Shawn: Can you link to the bugs?
    ... that would flag it so that it can be specific, targeted and
    can have a bug filed against it.

    Wilco: Test cases
    ... accuracy. Accuracy is difficult, because things change all
    the time.

    WIlco shows rule from auto-wcag.github.io for 4.1.2

    Jeanne asks if we can link to it in our Silver demo.

    Wilco: yes

    Shawn: How do you score it?

    Wilco: It maps to WCAG, how you score it is up to you. There
    are different reporting systems. Most of the rules only tell
    you if you fail, they don't tell you if you passed.

    Shawn: How to write a rule that requires human judgement?

    Wilco: Mostly we don't, but one person is working on a rule
    that has a human judgement.

    [shows]

    Wilco: WE have to make the problems as small as we can get
    them, and then resolve the interpretations.

    Anne: One of the rules was written by the Norwegian government
    agency, and then started assessing fines for the organizations
    that didn't comply.

MIscellaneous

    Wilco: Over lunch I talked about adding methods that could
    incur points for using accessible content management systems
    and IDE.
    ... If you can encourage browser vendors to make focus visible
    or to override the problems with single key shortcuts, then
    shift responsibility away from authors and toward user agents
    and AT.

    Title: SIlver TPAC Meeting Day 1

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    [End of minutes]

Received on Monday, 22 October 2018 15:36:06 UTC