Minutes from Silver meeting of 5 October 2018

As I was closing down my computer to head for TPAC, I found an open 
browser tab that probably never got sent.  I'm not taking the time to 
check, because I'm in a hurry.

Formatted link to minutes:
https://www.w3.org/2018/10/05-silver-minutes.html


Text of minutes:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                  Silver Community Group Teleconference

05 Oct 2018

Attendees

    Present
           Charles, jeanne, Lauriat, LuisG, Jennison, mikeCrabb,
           Cyborg, shari

    Regrets

    Chair
           Jeanne, Shawn

    Scribe
           LuisG

Contents

      * [2]Topics
          1. [3]Plain language prototype - how to format it for
             presentation at
          2. [4]Information architecture update - diagrams and
             prototype?
          3. [5]Conformance update - how to organize it for
             presentation at TPAC?
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      * [7]Summary of Resolutions
      __________________________________________________________

    <jeanne> TPAC?

    <jeanne> TPAC?

Plain language prototype - how to format it for presentation at

    Jeanne: Looking at Plain Language prototype today

    <jeanne>
    [8]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#
    Plain_Language

       [8] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Plain_Language

    <jeanne>
    [9]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BGr0XSQgjBSVDG_Xn9MoodEq
    01cJxgg_EE0bniXONXM/edit

       [9] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BGr0XSQgjBSVDG_Xn9MoodEq01cJxgg_EE0bniXONXM/edit

    Jeanne: Realized the section headings were a little random, so
    I organized it
    ... as I was doing that, I realized it really isn't clear how
    this would be used. Cyborg has links to the drawings in the
    comments, but people probably might not see the comments.
    ... so I put that in the proposal section. As we're thinking
    about showing this to people, how do we organize it so that it
    makes sense?
    ... I think that would be an important thing to do before TPAC
    and seems like the next step to improve how we're presenting it
    to people

    Lauriat: My gut feeling is to take the design work in the
    drawings and turn that into a few flat HTML pages with content
    within it
    ... but steer clear of including technology aspect, since
    that's a different set of thigns we want to get feedback on, so
    we don't want analysis of this prototype to get conflated with
    what we're not trying to test
    ... want to make it clear there are three different prototypes

    Jeanne: I think we should do Information Architecture first
    since it ties things together. As people see it, they're going
    to need to know how it's put together

    mikeCrabb: Do you need someone to make the HTML pages?

    Jeanne: If you have a good accessible tab panel...

    <Cyborg> sorry, just got on call

    mikeCrabb: I could find one

    hi Cyborg!

    <mikeCrabb>
    [10]https://inclusive-components.design/tabbed-interfaces/

      [10] https://inclusive-components.design/tabbed-interfaces/

    <Charles> Heydon could also be invited to help

    mikeCrabb: I'll make it this weekend and put it up on Github

    Jeanne: any other thoughts about the prototype? and what we
    want to do with this?

    Cyborg: Not sure how much is needed for the meeting; in our
    last call I was on, there was a discussion about feedback
    fitting into three categories. I've added a fourth.

    <shari> present_

    Cyborg: there were a couple of points to make sure get
    addressed. I think we were going to go with developer tasks
    first

    Jeanne: Want to add to remember that we dont' have to make this
    match WCAG exactly since we're doing it differently.
    ... some of the success criteria are broken down by
    level...this at Level A, this at Level AA, etc. we don't have
    to do that
    ... we can merge things more than WCAG has done.

    Jennison: That's something worth stressing...that the intent
    isn't to mirror WCAG.
    ... We're not trying to be WCAG. We would honor the work that's
    been done, but we're not treating things as set in stone.
    ... the more we say that the better

    +1

    Shawn: We just need to do it wisely. Focus on the tasks at
    hand, keep the "not doing things like WCAG" conversations high
    level.

    Jeanne: I think the hard part will be getting the structure
    right.

    Lauriat: I think we should remind people that structure was one
    of the main drivers for Silver

    <Cyborg> I think if we can get the developer tab done on the
    plain language prototype well, and the get started tab is both
    technically precise and following all best practices for plain
    language, we will solve a lot of the concerns.

    <Cyborg> And the draft is ready for the recruitment email for
    people to help with the developer tab -- developers/auditors
    who are good at writing for a general developer audience, who
    are good at training new people.

    Jeanne: I was assuming the tests would be part of the methods,
    but as I read the comments, I see we're going to need some type
    of normatic test statement to go with the guidance.

    mikeCrabb: this was brought up a few weeks ago. It would make
    sense to have a test on the guidance sense "conforming with
    this guideline will results in this experience"

    Jeanne: So instead of the test, it would be the result.
    Interesting.
    ... anything else on Plain Language?

    Lauriat: Thanks to Cyborg

    <Cyborg> thanks, my pleasure

Information architecture update - diagrams and prototype?

    Jeanne: let's take a look at the Information Architecture

    mikeCrabb: spent a few hours on the IA this week. And coming up
    with database models and started creating an API

    <jeanne> [11]https://github.com/mikecrabb/silverTaggingAPI

      [11] https://github.com/mikecrabb/silverTaggingAPI

    mikeCrabb: I have a database and root API, after that I can
    start building an interface to work with the API
    ... for data, I have dummy lorem ipsum text. all of the
    guidelines have standard lorem ipsum, and ?? have pirate ipsum
    so we can tell the difference.
    ... if we go straight for the plain language content, people
    might get distracted by that
    ... hoping I can spend some time actually coding and then by
    the meeting on Tuesday afternoon I'll have something to show
    off how it's all working together

    <mikeCrabb> [12]https://github.com/mikecrabb/silverTaggingAPI

      [12] https://github.com/mikecrabb/silverTaggingAPI

    Lauriat: One nitpick. It looks like you're using numeric IDs. I
    would suggest using short names for now since using numeric IDs
    might be confused with WCAG references
    ... if we stick with short names, we side step any confusion

    mikeCrabb: currently I'm using some technology related tags,
    but I could change it to tags which are shapes and colors

    Lauriat: Could we use POUR principles? so we can show people
    how it works
    ... having a few real examples of things that could fit more
    than one principle
    ... it would show that we can carry the POUR principles forward

    <Cyborg> Shawn, how does the email I sent you about usability
    fit into task-based guidance/methods and then possibly into
    POUR? How does that relate to information architecture?

    Lauriat: without it requiring you to organize them by principle

    Cyborg: In principle, task based guidance fits into IA by the
    tags, so it's could maybe address usability concerns between
    usability vs. accessibility

    <Charles> I’m still not clear what the discrepency is between
    usability and accessibility

    mikeCrabb: it should work

    <Charles> or who has this discrepency

    Lauriat: At a high-level, basically looking at the conflict
    between "meeting the guidelines" but having something unusable
    and having something that's usable, but not meeting the
    guidelines.

    <Charles> so that discrepency is between WCAG and accessibility
    and NOT between usability and accessibility

    Cyborg: Something that is an accessibility issue, but doesn't
    have a guideline.

    Lauriat: It might fit better in conformance.

    Charles: If we define these things, it makes it easier to have
    the conversation

    Cyborg: I like the task-based approach.

    Jeanne: Anything else for IA?

Conformance update - how to organize it for presentation at TPAC?

    Jeanne: Started working on some test examples. I think before
    we get too far into that, we need to talk about how we're going
    to present it.
    ... It's complicated and how do we explain it to people?

    Lauriat: I think what we have we should present it as "early
    explorations" but not what would be as fleshed out as the other
    prototypes
    ... because it's complicated and there is a lot involved. As
    much as I'd like to push it forward to get people on board, I
    don't think it's solid enough to make the case yet
    ... we have some good directions, but need to present it as
    such. TPAC might be a good place to get feedback from specific
    individuals.

    <Cyborg> How do we move that conversation in such a way that
    conformance model can be innovative and supportive of new
    approach?

    <jeanne>
    [13]https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EJN_KTXD0NaGGpNrwAf
    3i3idA-k1A0QR6Ctbk0re3nE/edit#slide=id.g35702e8f77_1_28

      [13] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EJN_KTXD0NaGGpNrwAf3i3idA-k1A0QR6Ctbk0re3nE/edit#slide=id.g35702e8f77_1_28

    Jeanne: I have an early diagram we might be able to use.

    Lauriat: While you were out, we couldn't get to the point where
    we could describe the boundaries.
    ... it was like going the more granular route instead of the
    generic route. The guidelines are pretty general now. Even
    though you could apply it to native mobile app, they weren't
    made for that.
    ... when it comes to conformance and allocating points based on
    what you are, we need to be able to handle "this is a native
    mobile app with a cart and social aspects" and the conformance
    model changes based on the platform, implementation, etc. and
    we'd have to define what each of those means because the points
    apply differently based on the contexts

    Charles: And there has to be criteria that helps me determine
    which categorization my site fits into.
    ... 8 of the categories could accurately describe my site

    Lauriat: We have interesting directions to explore for the
    conformance model, but it's still early for us to really
    present it as a solid prototype
    ... it would be "here is what we're looking to explore, here is
    out plan"
    ... For the context of presenting at TPAC, I would want to
    present on conformance model last. It's the least fleshed out
    and it's the logical end of "the story".
    ... and the conversations around it will be long, so better to
    not have them overwhelm the other topics we want feedback on

    <jeanne>
    [14]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_d5qrQtoX4BbNcbx4v0hjn
    kN0wPE3PLI8S5tY8ZPME/edit#

      [14] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_d5qrQtoX4BbNcbx4v0hjnkN0wPE3PLI8S5tY8ZPME/edit

    Jeanne: Here is the document I've started working on with the
    test in it
    ... an Example of an introduction and then started into the
    different tests we discussed. Stumbled with how it really fits
    in.

    <Cyborg> Jeanne can you please repost the conformance links?

    <Cyborg> i got booted somehow by mistake

    <Cyborg> oh i saw that

    <Cyborg> it's ok

    <jeanne>
    [15]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_d5qrQtoX4BbNcbx4v0hjn
    kN0wPE3PLI8S5tY8ZPME/edit#

      [15] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_d5qrQtoX4BbNcbx4v0hjnkN0wPE3PLI8S5tY8ZPME/edit

    Jeanne: I was getting tangled up in what was a "test assertion"
    and what was a "test"
    ... wonder if it would make sense to put test assertions in the
    guidelines. And we could use them to nail down the precision,
    make it normative, and we could have the actual tests as part
    of the methods that would be easier to change.
    ... and the test assertions, I think are more related to what
    mikeCrabb was talking about with the results.

    <Cyborg> I like the idea of test assertions rather than too
    granular on guidance.

    <Cyborg> and keep the granularity to methods

    <Cyborg> Will task-based and product/project-based guidance fit
    into the conformance presentation?

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________

Received on Friday, 19 October 2018 23:00:38 UTC