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Re: Question on FHIR references - relative and absolute URIs

From: <tlukasik@exnihilum.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 08:33:04 +0300
Message-ID: <2f729b178ec29d43d7a27136813337b8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
To: "Robert Hausam" <rrhausam@gmail.com>
Cc: tlukasik@exnihilum.com, "David Booth" <david@dbooth.org>, "Lloyd McKenzie" <lloyd@lmckenzie.com>, "Grahame Grieve" <grahame@healthintersections.com.au>, "its@lists.hl7.org" <its@lists.hl7.org>, "w3c semweb HCLS" <public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org>



	>> "We always had stated that we must be able to get back "the same thing"."

	 

	That's true, Rob.. we've always included round-tripability in our conversations, but (and again, please correct me if I seem to be missing or misunderstanding something), "the same thing" does not always mean the same thing. 

	 

	It might mean "equality" or it might mean "equivalence". That's the reason that we have both an "==" and an "===" operator in many programmimg languages.

	 

	So getting back to the original question that David asked and Lloyd offered some insight into, it sounds to me like the answer is that messing with the URI's might be OK if we're only required to make sure that they're "the same thing" in the sense that they're equivalent (meaning that
"they point to the same thing"), but it wouldn't be OK if they have to be "the same thing" in the stricter sense of not altering the digital signature.  
	 

	TJL

	 

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------

Subject: Re: Question on FHIR references - relative and absolute URIs

From: "Robert Hausam" <rrhausam@gmail.com>

Date: Tue, April 26, 2016 11:54 pm

To: tlukasik@exnihilum.com

Cc: "David Booth" <david@dbooth.org>

"Lloyd McKenzie" <lloyd@lmckenzie.com>

"Grahame Grieve" <grahame@healthintersections.com.au>

"its@lists.hl7.org" <its@lists.hl7.org>

"w3c semweb HCLS" <public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



> Right. We always had stated that we must be able to get back "the same

> thing". And signature is a means to verify that.

>

> Rob

>

> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 6:05 PM, <tlukasik@exnihilum.com> wrote:

>

>> >> "It has been mentioned before, as a way to clarify what qualifies as

>> successful round tripping."

>>

>> David..

>>

>> I wasn't doubting that it was ever mentioned. My concern was that we may

>> not be keeping the additional challenge that signing introduces in mind

>> when evaluating and testing the round tripping of our prototype RDF

>> instances.

>>

>> I think that if we *were* doing that, we would have been aware of what

>> Lloyd pointed out, and have been able to answer our own question RE the

>> preservation of absolute and relative URIs.

>>

>> TJL

>>

>> ---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------

>>

>> Subject: Re: Question on FHIR references - relative and absolute URIs

>>

From: "David Booth" <david@dbooth.org>

>> Date: Tue, April 26, 2016 4:05 pm

>> To: tlukasik@exnihilum.com

>> Cc: "Lloyd McKenzie" <lloyd@lmckenzie.com>

>> "Grahame Grieve" <grahame@healthintersections.com.au>

>>

>> "its@lists.hl7.org" <its@lists.hl7.org>

>> "w3c semweb HCLS" <public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org>

>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> > On 04/26/2016 03:44 PM, tlukasik@exnihilum.com wrote:

>> >> >> "If we want the RDF to be an equal sibling to xml and JSON then

>> >> round tripping needs to be signature safe."

>> >> David..

>> >> Lloyd's comment points out the need for a significant and non-trivial

>> >> "uptick" in the level of care that will have to be taken when generating

>> >> RDF.

>> >> I certainly haven't been to every single FHIR RDF meeting (so please

>> >> correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't recall "signature safety" being

>> >> discussed much (if at all) when we've discussed aspects of round

>> tripping.

>> >

>> > It has been mentioned before, as a way to clarify what qualifies as

>> > successful round tripping. Successful round tripping means getting back

>> > "the same thing" if you convert from one FHIR serialization to another

>> > and back again. But in deciding what we mean by "the same thing" one

>> > might not expect something like whitespace differences to count as

>> > consequential differences, whereas other changes definitely should be

>> > considered important. The digital signature criteria provide a way to

>> > arbitrate between important and unimportant differences.

>> >

>> > David

>> >

>> >> TJL

>> >>

>> >> ---------------------------- Original Message

>> ----------------------------

>> >> Subject: Re: Question on FHIR references - relative and absolute URIs

>> >>

>>

From: "Lloyd McKenzie" <lloyd@lmckenzie.com>

>> >> Date: Tue, April 26, 2016 3:00 pm

>> >> To: "Grahame Grieve" <grahame@healthintersections.com.au>

>> >> Cc: "David Booth" <david@dbooth.org>

>> >> "its@lists.hl7.org" <its@lists.hl7.org>

>> >> "w3c semweb HCLS" <public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org>

>> >>

>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >>

>> >> > If we want the RDF to be an equal sibling to xml and JSON then round

>> >> > tripping needs to be signature safe. At the moment, that means

>> retaining

>> >> > absolute vs. relative references.

>> >> >

>> >> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016, Grahame Grieve <

>> >> > grahame@healthintersections.com.au> wrote:

>> >> >

>> >> >> well, this is tricky. technically, it's not strictly required, but

>> >> it's a

>> >> >> lossy transform (lossy in both ways, in fact). One of the

>> attractions of

>> >> >> fhir;reference for me is that you can have an absolute reference for

>> RDF

>> >> >> and preserve the original fhir url

>> >> >>

>> >> >> Grahame

>> >> >>

>> >> >>

>> >> >> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 3:01 AM, David Booth <david@dbooth.org

>> >> >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','david@dbooth.org');>> wrote:

>> >> >>

>> >> >>> Grahame and/or Lloyd,

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> In today's FHIR RDF teleconference, a question came up about

>> >> relative and

>> >> >>> absolute URIs in FHIR references.

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> Must absolute and relative references be round tripped as is? I.e.,

>> do

>> >> >>> we need to maintain the distinction between relative and absolute

>> >> >>> references when round tripping, or can relative URIs be turned into

>> >> >>> absolute URIs and vice versa?

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> I did not see any mention of normalizing references in the

>> >> discussion of

>> >> >>> Canonical JSON:

>> >> >>> https://hl7-fhir.github.io/json.html

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> Thanks,

>> >> >>> David Booth

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>

>> >> >>

>> >> >> --

>> >> >> -----

>> >> >> http://www.healthintersections.com.au /

>> >> grahame@healthintersections.com.au

>> >> >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','grahame@healthintersections.com.au');>

>> /

>> >> >> +61 411 867 065

>> >> >>

>> >> >>

>> >> >>

>> >>

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>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > --

>> >> >

>> >> > *Lloyd McKenzie*, P.Eng.

>> >> > Senior Consultant, Information Technology Services

>> >> > Gevity Consulting Inc.

>> >> >

>> >> > E: lmckenzie@gevityinc.com

>> >> > M: +1 587-334-1110 <1-587-334-1110>

>> >> > W: gevityinc.com

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > *GEVITY**Informatics for a healthier world *

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>

>

>

> --

> Robert Hausam, MD

> +1 (801) 949-1556

> rrhausam@gmail.com

>

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Received on Wednesday, 27 April 2016 08:19:39 UTC

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