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Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only

From: Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 01:29:03 +0000
To: Maxime Lefrançois <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>, "janowicz@ucsb.edu" <janowicz@ucsb.edu>, "Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <6AB80109-3727-4683-B80A-7810E697A061@anu.edu.au>
My understanding of the thread was that it would not be used for actionable properties. The Actuation part needs revision in SOSA and in particular, needs introduction in SSN. I have put that on the agenda again for tomorrow. We need proposals there.

From: Maxime Lefrançois <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>
Date: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 12:10 pm
To: Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>, "janowicz@ucsb.edu" <janowicz@ucsb.edu>, "Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only

Hi,
I believe this would solve only part of the issue. Just a quick question:
If SOSA contains the class sosa:ObservableProperty . Would you use this class also for actionable properties ?

Le mar. 7 févr. 2017 à 01:49, Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au<mailto:armin.haller@anu.edu.au>> a écrit :
The sub-class relation would only be introduced in SSN not SOSA. I should have been more explicit in the second dot-point. The third dot-point means to say that.

From: Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu<mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu>>
Reply-To: "janowicz@ucsb.edu<mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu>" <janowicz@ucsb.edu<mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 11:44 am
To: Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au<mailto:armin.haller@anu.edu.au>>, Maxime Lefrançois <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr<mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>>, "Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au<mailto:kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org>" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org>>

Subject: Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only

Not sure, whether I am fully understanding this.

-          ObservableProperty is a subclass of ssn:Property

This would violate one of our design principles, namely that SOSA does not make use of SSN.


On 02/06/2017 04:41 PM, Armin Haller wrote:
It looks like we have a proposal here to resolve issue 87: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/87


Please let me try to restate what was proposed:


-          ObservableProperty is introduced in SOSA (as is currently implemented in: https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl)

-          ObservableProperty is a subclass of ssn:Property

-          ObservableProperty is introduced in SSN as well and the subclass relation to ssn:Property is stated within

That leaves the door open to have another property in SSN (and) SOSA concerned with ActuableProperties.

This should also mean that SSN instances are SOSA instances, since no axioms in SOSA are violated.

Is my understanding correct?


From: Maxime Lefrançois <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr><mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>
Date: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 10:14 am
To: "Simon.Cox@csiro.au"<mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au><mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, "janowicz@ucsb.edu"<mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu> <janowicz@ucsb.edu><mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu>, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au><mailto:kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org"<mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org> <public-sdw-wg@w3.org><mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only
Resent-From: <public-sdw-wg@w3.org><mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 10:15 am

Yes indeed, this is what I meant. Thanks.

Le lun. 6 févr. 2017 à 23:50, <Simon.Cox@csiro.au><mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au> a écrit :

>  it appears very strange to me to state that a ssn:property is a sub property of a sosa:ObservableProperty

>  This is what can be read at [1]

Assuming you mean “it appears very strange to me to state that a ssn:Property is a sub class of a sosa:ObservableProperty” then I agree. That looks like my error.

Simon

From: Maxime Lefrançois [mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr<mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>]
Sent: Monday, 6 February, 2017 17:55
To: janowicz@ucsb.edu<mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu>; Cox, Simon (L&W, Clayton) <Simon.Cox@csiro.au><mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au>; kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au<mailto:kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; public-sdw-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org>

Subject: Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only

>  And it appears very strange to me to state that an observable property is a sub property of a property.
That was a slip of the tongue, I meant:

it appears very strange to me to state that a ssn:property is a sub property of a sosa:ObservableProperty
This is what can be read at [1] and is also what I would model when Phil says:
>>> Looking at the two definitions, there are differences but they look
    >>> very minor to my eyes with sosa:ObservableProperty looking slightly
    >>> more general, so, again, I'd delete ssn:Property.

[1] - https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/ssn-sosa.ttl


but anyways, +1 in favour of your arguments, and I propose that:

 - we update sosa-ssn.ttl to reflect what we all agree on;
 - we also consider either to add sosa:ActuableProperty, or roll back to just sosa:Property.

Kind regards,
Maxime

Not strange actually – not all properties are observable. In the revision of ISO 19109:2015 we distinguished between

-          Observation

-          Assertion (e.g. name, price)

-          Derivation (e.g. classifications based on combinations of observed properties)

-          Inheritance/instantiation (e.g. where a property value is assumed on the basis of class membership)
These are not necessarily disjoint, and it is likely that observable properties are the most interesting (depending on you epistemological viewpoint) but it is useful to recognize that observable properties are a distinct class.

Yes, not strange at all. I agree with all of Simon's arguments and we also made them in one of our telco's half a year ago.



On 02/05/2017 04:57 PM, Simon.Cox@csiro.au<mailto:Simon.Cox@csiro.au> wrote:

>  And it appears very strange to me to state that an observable property is a sub property of a property.

Not strange actually – not all properties are observable. In the revision of ISO 19109:2015 we distinguished between

-          Observation

-          Assertion (e.g. name, price)

-          Derivation (e.g. classifications based on combinations of observed properties)

-          Inheritance/instantiation (e.g. where a property value is assumed on the basis of class membership)
These are not necessarily disjoint, and it is likely that observable properties are the most interesting (depending on you epistemological viewpoint) but it is useful to recognize that observable properties are a distinct class.

Simon

From: Maxime Lefrançois [mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr]
Sent: Monday, 6 February, 2017 00:22
To: Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au><mailto:kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>; SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org><mailto:public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only

+1 for Kerry's arguments.

And it appears very strange to me to state that an observable property is a sub property of a property.

I just changed to sosa:Property instead of sosa:ObservableProperty in the proposal I am currently working on.
 + add relations and classes that are missing

best,
Maximle
Le dim. 5 févr. 2017 à 13:44, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au<mailto:kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>> a écrit :

PhilA has said
>>> Looking at the two definitions, there are differences but they look
    >>> very minor to my eyes with sosa:ObservableProperty looking slightly
    >>> more general, so, again, I'd delete ssn:Property.

This is issue-87. As you can see by my analysis last November in the tracker https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/87 ,

(1). A sosa: Observable Property is NOT an O&M property. The O&M standard has no such term.


(2) The ssn:Property  has the same intended meaning as an  an O&M Property (and, yes it is an O&M “Property”) and this is explicit by the annotation  within ssn “<dc:source> skos:exactMatch 'property' [O&M]  http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/om </dc:source>”


(3) What is shown in the mapping table is  not the complete annotation for  ssn:Property – just an extract. However that very paragraph deserves improvement.

(4) ssn:Property is used in other places throughout ssn that have nothing to do with the narrow context associated with Observation  as it is used in SOSA.
In particular, nothing to do with a

(5) ssn:Property cannot be deleted --- many, many things will break.  Nor can it be replaced by sosa:ObservableProperty (see 4).  Maybe it is possible to say sosa:Property rdfs:SubclassOf  ssn:Property but this has its problems too (ssn instances would not be sosa instances). A more sophisticated  workaround is required if we head that direction.

(6) ssn users know it as “Property” . So do O&M users. Why change, who are we serving?

(6) OTOH a simple name change  in sosa to “Property” and some clarification on the rdfs:comments in both places would work – and then ssn and sosa can use the very same term. This is the essence of my proposal on the wiki as a pattern to solve all these many problems. https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Proposals_for_rewriting_SSN#Compromise_Proposal_6_made_by_Kerry_January_2017

In this case the rdfs:comment suggested by Armin looks very close  but I prefer abbreviated as follows (due to (4) )  “An observable quality of a real world phenomena (thing, person, event, etc.) “ or here is another idea  that I propose “An observable quality of a real world phenomena (object,  person, or event), typically a FeatureOfInterest” . That works well  in the context for my proposal that also shows how to use it in the simple core.


-Kerry


Dr Kerry Taylor
Associate Professor (Data Science)
Research School of Computer Science
ANU College of Engineering and Computer Science
Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
+61 2 6125 8560<tel:+61%202%206125%208560>





--

Krzysztof Janowicz



Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara

4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060



Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu<mailto:jano@geog.ucsb.edu>

Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/<http://geog.ucsb.edu/%7Ejano/>

Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net







--

Krzysztof Janowicz



Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara

4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060



Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu<mailto:jano@geog.ucsb.edu>

Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/


Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net

Received on Tuesday, 7 February 2017 01:29:44 UTC

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