Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) : issue-87 only

Hi,
I believe this would solve only part of the issue. Just a quick question:
If SOSA contains the class sosa:ObservableProperty . Would you use this
class also for actionable properties ?

Le mar. 7 févr. 2017 à 01:49, Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au> a
écrit :

> The sub-class relation would only be introduced in SSN not SOSA. I should
> have been more explicit in the second dot-point. The third dot-point means
> to say that.
>
>
>
> *From: *Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu>
> *Reply-To: *"janowicz@ucsb.edu" <janowicz@ucsb.edu>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 11:44 am
> *To: *Armin Haller <armin.haller@anu.edu.au>, Maxime Lefrançois <
> maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>, "Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>,
> Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>, "public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <
> public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
>
>
> *Subject: *Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) :
> issue-87 only
>
>
>
> Not sure, whether I am fully understanding this.
>
>
> -          ObservableProperty is a subclass of ssn:Property
>
>
> This would violate one of our design principles, namely that SOSA does not
> make use of SSN.
>
>
> On 02/06/2017 04:41 PM, Armin Haller wrote:
>
> It looks like we have a proposal here to resolve issue 87:
> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/87
>
>
>
> Please let me try to restate what was proposed:
>
>
>
> -          ObservableProperty is introduced in SOSA (as is currently
> implemented in: https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl)
>
> -          ObservableProperty is a subclass of ssn:Property
>
> -          ObservableProperty is introduced in SSN as well and the
> subclass relation to ssn:Property is stated within
>
>
>
> That leaves the door open to have another property in SSN (and) SOSA
> concerned with ActuableProperties.
>
>
>
> This should also mean that SSN instances are SOSA instances, since no
> axioms in SOSA are violated.
>
>
>
> Is my understanding correct?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Maxime Lefrançois <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>
> <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 10:14 am
> *To: *"Simon.Cox@csiro.au" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>
> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, "janowicz@ucsb.edu" <janowicz@ucsb.edu>
> <janowicz@ucsb.edu> <janowicz@ucsb.edu>, Kerry Taylor
> <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>,
> "public-sdw-wg@w3.org" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
> <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) :
> issue-87 only
> *Resent-From: *<public-sdw-wg@w3.org> <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at 10:15 am
>
>
>
> Yes indeed, this is what I meant. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Le lun. 6 févr. 2017 à 23:50, <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> a
> écrit :
>
> Ø  it appears very strange to me to state that a ssn:property is a sub
> property of a sosa:ObservableProperty
>
> Ø  This is what can be read at [1]
>
>
>
> Assuming you mean “it appears very strange to me to state that a
> ssn:Property is a sub class of a sosa:ObservableProperty” then I agree. That
> looks like my error.
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> *From:* Maxime Lefrançois [mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr]
> *Sent:* Monday, 6 February, 2017 17:55
> *To:* janowicz@ucsb.edu; Cox, Simon (L&W, Clayton) <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>
> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>; kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au; public-sdw-wg@w3.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) :
> issue-87 only
>
>
>
> Ø  And it appears very strange to me to state that an observable property
> is a sub property of a property.
>
> That was a slip of the tongue, I meant:
>
>
>
> it appears very strange to me to state that a ssn:property is a sub
> property of a sosa:ObservableProperty
>
> This is what can be read at [1] and is also what I would model when Phil
> says:
>
> >>> Looking at the two definitions, there are differences but they look
>
>     >>> very minor to my eyes with sosa:ObservableProperty looking slightly
>
>     >>> more general, so, again, I'd delete ssn:Property.
>
>
>
> [1] - https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/ssn-sosa.ttl
>
>
>
> but anyways, +1 in favour of your arguments, and I propose that:
>
>
>
>  - we update sosa-ssn.ttl to reflect what we all agree on;
>
>  - we also consider either to add sosa:ActuableProperty, or roll back to
> just sosa:Property.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Maxime
>
>
>
> Not strange actually – not all properties are observable. In the revision
> of ISO 19109:2015 we distinguished between
>
> -          Observation
>
> -          Assertion (e.g. name, price)
>
> -          Derivation (e.g. classifications based on combinations of
> observed properties)
>
> -          Inheritance/instantiation (e.g. where a property value is
> assumed on the basis of class membership)
>
> These are not necessarily disjoint, and it is likely that observable
> properties are the most interesting (depending on you epistemological
> viewpoint) but it is useful to recognize that observable properties are a
> distinct class.
>
>
>
> Yes, not strange at all. I agree with all of Simon's arguments and we also
> made them in one of our telco's half a year ago.
>
>
>
>
> On 02/05/2017 04:57 PM, Simon.Cox@csiro.au wrote:
>
> Ø  And it appears very strange to me to state that an observable property
> is a sub property of a property.
>
>
>
> Not strange actually – not all properties are observable. In the revision
> of ISO 19109:2015 we distinguished between
>
> -          Observation
>
> -          Assertion (e.g. name, price)
>
> -          Derivation (e.g. classifications based on combinations of
> observed properties)
>
> -          Inheritance/instantiation (e.g. where a property value is
> assumed on the basis of class membership)
>
> These are not necessarily disjoint, and it is likely that observable
> properties are the most interesting (depending on you epistemological
> viewpoint) but it is useful to recognize that observable properties are a
> distinct class.
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> *From:* Maxime Lefrançois [mailto:maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr
> <maxime.lefrancois@emse.fr>]
> *Sent:* Monday, 6 February, 2017 00:22
> *To:* Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au>;
> SDW WG Public List <public-sdw-wg@w3.org> <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Proposals (was Re: Architecture of SOSA/SSN integration) :
> issue-87 only
>
>
>
> +1 for Kerry's arguments.
>
>
>
> And it appears very strange to me to state that an observable property is
> a sub property of a property.
>
>
>
> I just changed to sosa:Property instead of sosa:ObservableProperty in the
> proposal I am currently working on.
>
>  + add relations and classes that are missing
>
>
>
> best,
>
> Maximle
>
> Le dim. 5 févr. 2017 à 13:44, Kerry Taylor <kerry.taylor@anu.edu.au> a
> écrit :
>
>
>
> PhilA has said
>
> >>> Looking at the two definitions, there are differences but they look
>
>     >>> very minor to my eyes with sosa:ObservableProperty looking slightly
>
>     >>> more general, so, again, I'd delete ssn:Property.
>
>
>
> This is issue-87. As you can see by my analysis last November in the
> tracker https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/87 ,
>
>
>
> (1). A sosa: Observable Property is NOT an O&M property. The O&M standard
> has no such term.
>
>
>
> (2) The ssn:Property  has the same intended meaning as an  an O&M Property (and, yes it is an O&M “Property”) and this is explicit by the annotation  within ssn “<dc:source> skos:exactMatch 'property' [O&M]  http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/om </dc:source>”
>
>
>
> (3) What is shown in the mapping table is  not the complete annotation for
>  ssn:Property – just an extract. However that very paragraph deserves
> improvement.
>
>
>
> (4) ssn:Property is used in other places throughout ssn that have nothing
> to do with the narrow context associated with Observation  as it is used in
> SOSA.
>
> In particular, nothing to do with a
>
>
>
> (5) ssn:Property cannot be deleted --- many, many things will break.  Nor
> can it be replaced by sosa:ObservableProperty (see 4).  Maybe it is
> possible to say sosa:Property rdfs:SubclassOf  ssn:Property but this has
> its problems too (ssn instances would not be sosa instances). A more
> sophisticated  workaround is required if we head that direction.
>
>
>
> (6) ssn users know it as “Property” . So do O&M users. Why change, who are
> we serving?
>
>
>
> (6) OTOH a simple name change  in sosa to “Property” and some
> clarification on the rdfs:comments in both places would work – and then ssn
> and sosa can use the very same term. This is the essence of my proposal on
> the wiki as a pattern to solve all these many problems.
> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Proposals_for_rewriting_SSN#Compromise_Proposal_6_made_by_Kerry_January_2017
>
> In this case the rdfs:comment suggested by Armin looks very close  but I
> prefer abbreviated as follows (due to (4) )  “An observable quality of a
> real world phenomena (thing, person, event, etc.) “ or here is another idea
>  that I propose “An observable quality of a real world phenomena (object,
>  person, or event), typically a FeatureOfInterest” . That works well  in
> the context for my proposal that also shows how to use it in the simple
> core.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Kerry
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr Kerry Taylor
>
> Associate Professor (Data Science)
>
> Research School of Computer Science
>
> ANU College of Engineering and Computer Science
>
> Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
>
> +61 2 6125 8560 <+61%202%206125%208560>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Krzysztof Janowicz
>
>
>
> Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara
>
> 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060
>
>
>
> Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu
>
> Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/
>
> Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Krzysztof Janowicz
>
>
>
> Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara
>
> 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060
>
>
>
> Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu
>
> Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/
>
> Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net
>
>