Re: Clarification required: BP6 "use HTTP URIs for spatial things"

Thats the issue that needs to be made clear.. it is to be expected that
whatever terminology we use, some people will start assuming the entity,
and some its representation. I stated one possible interpretation and you
assumed  an explicitly different use of those terms from your perspective.
Not a problem if im wrong and we must never use the word feature to relate
to a real entity.. and we can state what term we want to use for entities.
All that matters is we lay out these terms and make it clear how best
practices are going to work

On Fri, 2 Sep 2016, 1:26 PM Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu> wrote:

> we need to make a very clear statement that geo "Features" are things that
> have comparable URIs - but instances of "FeatureTypes" are representations
> that are related. These representations are properties of the Feature that
> may be combined using  using owl:sameAs between the Features, but not the
> representation (FeatureType) instances
>
>
> I have to admit that I do not understand what this means. Can somebody
> clarify it? What is a 'comparable' URI? What does it mean for
> 'representations' to be 'related'? Aren't instances of FeatureType(s)
> features?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 09/01/2016 03:06 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>
>
> Circling in on a resolution here I hope :-)
>
> from what I am seeing -
>
> we need to make a very clear statement that geo "Features" are things that
> have comparable URIs - but instances of "FeatureTypes" are representations
> that are related. These representations are properties of the Feature that
> may be combined using  using owl:sameAs between the Features, but not the
> representation (FeatureType) instances
>
> There is practice 'in the wild" to use foaf as a vocabulary for the
> relationship.  Do we recommend this, or leave it free.  Do we specify that
> whatever relationship is used is a subProperty of foaf:primaryTopicOf  ?
>
> And finally, there is probably no established best practice for providing
> discovery of available bindings - and we should flag this as something that
> should be addressed - a missing BP against requirements
>
> There is evidence its at least feasible conforming to the vocabuary reuse
> BP -   for example a graph based mainly on VoiD can be made available as
> an extra representation using the IANA "alternates" relationshp  c.f. in
> the SIRF project  (
> http://environment.data.gov.au/water/id/catchment/100862?_view=alternates&_format=html -
> notwithstanding that the resources are woefully maintained now :-( Very sad
> as there was even a link checker that exploited this view available! )
>
> Rob
>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2016 at 07:42 Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> So as representations, these are not “owl:sameAs”.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just for clarification. owl:sameAs is only concerned with the mapping of
>> IRIs to (real world) entities and not 'representations' (leaving aside the
>> fact that everything is a representation in some sense). I.e., it is about
>> 'identity'. To give an extreme example, a URI may refer to the Eddystone
>> Lighthouse which may be classified as /Lighthouse/ in some repository.
>> Another URI established 50 years from now can still refer to this
>> particular (4th) lighthouse and classify it as a /Ruin/. Another 50 years
>> into the future, there may be yet another URI that refers to the fact that
>> at some stage there was a ruin here of the 4th lighthouse called Eddystone
>> while there is nothing physical left of it, and, thus, it is neither
>> classified as /Ruin/ nor /Lighthouse/. In fact, we do not even need to
>> introduce the concept of "real world" here as we can also establish a
>> sameAs relation between two URIs that point to Zeus. Please note that this
>> is different from establish a sameAs link between a particular statue of
>> Zeus in a particular museum and Zeus as the god of thunder. Finally, the
>> purpose of establishing sameAs links is typically data fusion/conflation
>> (no matter whether this is done ad-hoc, manually, or (offline)
>> computationally) .
>>
>> Best,
>> Jano
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/31/2016 06:38 AM, Joshua Lieberman wrote:
>>
>> Jeremy,
>>
>> So as representations, these are not “owl:sameAs”. We assume that as
>> feature data, each refers to a real world entity, but we don’t assert that
>> this VerticalObstruction is the same individual as this
>> MaritimeNavigationAid. We just are suspecting or asserting that the same
>> real world thing is being discerned in two different ways. Someone may
>> define a lighthouse class as subclassing both, otherwise a slightly
>> specialized relation (e.g. sdwgeo:sameRealWorldEntityAs) would be useful
>> here.
>>
>> Josh
>>
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 8:41 AM, Jeremy Tandy <jeremy.tandy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > That still leaves a gap in expressing whether two feature data
>> entities represent the same real world entity. Perhaps we need a
>> "sameFeatureAs" predicate to address this.
>>
>> @josh - can we clarify my understanding please?
>>
>> In the BP doc §4 "Spatial things, features and geometry" [1] I use a
>> lighthouse example, so I'll continue with that ...
>>
>> We have one real lighthouse (Eddystone Lighthouse) that is discerned as a
>> different Type by different communities: "VerticalObstruction" and
>> "MaritimeNavigationAid". In ISO 19100 parlance, these are two distinct
>> feature types. The two "Features" might be encoded in GML as follows
>> (forgive any errors in my illustrative example):
>>
>> <VerticalObstruction gml:id="a">
>>     <gml:name>Eddystone</gml:name>
>>     <gml:identifier codeSpace="
>> http://example.com/sar/features/vo/">EDY</gml:identifier>
>>     <geometry>
>>         <gml:Point gml:id="a-p1" srsDimension="2" srsName="EPSG:4326">
>>             <gml:pos>50.184 -4.268</gml:pos>
>>         </gml:Point>
>>     </geometry>
>>     <height uom="m">41</height>
>> </VerticalObstruction>
>>
>> <MaritimeNavigationAid gml:id="b">
>>     <gml:name>Eddystone Lighthouse</gml:name>
>>     <gml:identifier codeSpace="http://example.org/maritime/navaid/
>> ">2650253</gml:identifier>
>>     <geo>
>>         <gml:Point gml:id="b-p1" srsDimension="2" srsName="EPSG:4326">
>>             <gml:pos>50.2 -4.3</gml:pos>
>>         </gml:Point>
>>     </geo>
>>     <lightCharacteristic>
>>         ...
>>     </lightCharacteristic>
>> </MaritimeNavigationAid>
>>
>> So we have two Features (which we collectively have agreed are "spatial
>> things"), with identifiers <http://example.com/sar/features/vo/EDY> and <
>> http://example.org/maritime/navaid/2650253>. Respectively, the XML
>> elements that describe these features are identified as "a" and "b" using
>> the @gml:id attribute.
>>
>> If we are using "indirect identification" then _both_ <
>> http://example.com/sar/features/vo/EDY> and <
>> http://example.org/maritime/navaid/2650253> are treated as identifiers
>> for the _real_ Eddystone Lighthouse; we simply don't care to differentiate
>> between the real world thing and the information record. In which case,
>> <owl:sameAs>  would seem sufficient? The "height" and "lightCharacteristic"
>> properties are both applicable to the real Eddystone Lighthouse. Some
>> judgement would be required to decide which point geometry ("geo" or
>> "geometry" property) is considered "best".
>>
>> The way I think about it, @gml:id is more like the identifier for a named
>> graph; a container for a set of properties ...
>>
>> Am I missing something???
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>> [1]: http://w3c.github.io/sdw/bp/#spatial-things-features-and-geometry
>>
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 at 12:42 Joshua Lieberman <
>> jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If we are asserting that spatial data on the Web is "always" feature
>>> data that represents a real world entity, then yes, we don't have the
>>> general Web "is it or isn't it physical" ambiguity and can assume that a
>>> feature data identifier also and indirectly identifies the feature. That
>>> still leaves a gap in expressing whether two feature data entities
>>> represent the same real world entity. Perhaps we need a "sameFeatureAs"
>>> predicate to address this.
>>>
>>> Josh
>>>
>>> Joshua Lieberman, Ph.D.
>>> Principal, Tumbling Walls Consultancy
>>> Tel/Direct: +1 617-431-6431
>>> jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com
>>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 07:29, Frans Knibbe <frans.knibbe@geodan.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> As stated before, I don't think the httpRange-14 problem exists in our
>>> domain of discourse. I think (and hope) that confusion can only occur when
>>> the things that are described are digital things, or things that can be
>>> transmitted over a computer network, like web pages or mail boxes. It seems
>>> to me that spatial things are never that type of thing. Therefore there is
>>> no reason to take precautions against possible confusion.
>>>
>>> That probably means +1.
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>> Frans
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 09:50, Jeremy Tandy <jeremy.tandy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Rob & Clemens ...
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 at 08:30, Clemens Portele <
>>>> portele@interactive-instruments.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30 August 2016 at 10:10:26, Jeremy Tandy (jeremy.tandy@gmail.com)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi. It would be good to close this issue out & include our collective
>>>>> recommendation in the BP doc working draft.
>>>>>
>>>>> PROPOSAL: SDW working group recommends use of "indirect identifiers"
>>>>> for spatial things
>>>>>
>>>>> ... I'll start the voting.
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeremy
>>>>>
>>>>> (BTW, to make sense of the PROPOSAL you'll need to read the email
>>>>> thread)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 at 10:12 Linda van den Brink <
>>>>> l.vandenbrink@geonovum.nl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So… do we agree we can recommend indirect identifiers, or do we try
>>>>>> to fix the issue with getting the correct identifier as Rob describes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While waiting for this I’ve updated the issue and the text referring
>>>>>> to the issue in BP6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Van:* Rob Atkinson [mailto:rob@metalinkage.com.au]
>>>>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 24 augustus 2016 13:56
>>>>>> *Aan:* Jeremy Tandy; Phil Archer; Linda van den Brink; Bill Roberts
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *CC:* SDW WG Public List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Onderwerp:* Re: Clarification required: BP6 "use HTTP URIs for
>>>>>> spatial things"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agree this is a real concern - people cant be blamed for doing the
>>>>>> obvious, if dumb, thing..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we should take note of best practice in the HTML world -
>>>>>> which is often to include a citable link to a resource in the rendered
>>>>>> view.  Or a "share" or something similar. We can also put fairly explicit
>>>>>> annotation in machine-readable code - stating that the resource is about
>>>>>> the URI - and even notes saying when citing this resource use the URI....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd also like to see browsers evolve to offer you the original link
>>>>>> or the redirected when cutting and pasting - how hard can it be!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe we can get Ed to ask around Google Chrome team for suggestions
>>>>>> on how best to handle this :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 at 18:27 Jeremy Tandy <jeremy.tandy@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I think so ... And we should do so if we are recommending
>>>>>> "indirect identification".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeremy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 at 09:24, Phil Archer <phila@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill's comments also made me think about some of the classic
>>>>>> arguments,
>>>>>> such as that a lake doesn't have a last updated date and isn't 435KB
>>>>>> big. Which are true, however, that kind of metadata generally comes
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the server, i.e. the HTTP layer. That's an over simplification but the
>>>>>> point is that it is relatively easy to avoid deliberately creating
>>>>>> misleading metadata - metadata about the doc rather than the thing it
>>>>>> describes - and it's also generally easy to avoid looking for that
>>>>>> metadata.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there scope for some BP advice there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24/08/2016 08:25, Jeremy Tandy wrote:
>>>>>> > Thanks Linda. More clear examples where being "correct" (in terms of
>>>>>> > avoiding uri collisions by using two distinct uris) is making
>>>>>> things worse
>>>>>> > because users take the wrong one!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > So, as a WG, are we content to recommend this "indirect
>>>>>> identification"
>>>>>> > pattern where thing & info resource identifiers are conflated?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Bill has added some good points about how to avoid impacts of uri
>>>>>> > collision- by using the (dataset) metadata to talk about licenses
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> > creators for the information ...
>>>>>> > On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 at 07:52, Linda van den Brink <
>>>>>> l.vandenbrink@geonovum.nl>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Experience from the Netherlands: we have the id/doc pattern in our
>>>>>> URI
>>>>>> >> strategy, based on the Cool URIs note [8] and the ISA study on
>>>>>> persistent
>>>>>> >> identifiers [9].
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> That being said, same as Bill I also notice data users getting
>>>>>> confused
>>>>>> >> and generally using the /doc/  URI as that is the one they can
>>>>>> copy from
>>>>>> >> their browser address bar. This is not only casual confusion but
>>>>>> also ends
>>>>>> >> up in published information resources.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> You see this, for example, all over the CB-NL which is a
>>>>>> vocabulary for
>>>>>> >> the building sector and contains links to other Dutch standards
>>>>>> such as
>>>>>> >> IMGeo, an information model and vocabulary for large scale
>>>>>> topography. E.g.
>>>>>> >> the CB-NL concept of ‘Gebouw’ (Building) [10]  links to two IMGeo
>>>>>> concepts
>>>>>> >> ‘Pand’ (building part) and ‘Overig Bouwwerk’ (other construction)
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> >> their /doc/ URIs. If you click on Pand (which doesn’t have its own
>>>>>> landing
>>>>>> >> page in CB-NL so I can’t include the link) you will see it
>>>>>> includes the
>>>>>> >> /doc/  URI as the identifier of Pand.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This is an example where it occurs in vocabularies, but I also see
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> >> happen with identifiers for data instances.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [8]: https://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [9]:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/sites/default/files/D7.1.3%20-%20Study%20on%20persistent%20URIs_0.pdf
>>>>>> >> 10: http://ont.cbnl.org/cb/def/Gebouw
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Linda
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> *Van:* Jeremy Tandy [mailto:jeremy.tandy@gmail.com]
>>>>>> >> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 23 augustus 2016 20:57
>>>>>> >> *Aan:* Bill Roberts
>>>>>> >> *CC:* SDW WG Public List
>>>>>> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: Clarification required: BP6 "use HTTP URIs for
>>>>>> spatial
>>>>>> >> things"
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Thanks Bill. Sounds very coherent ... I hoped for some responses
>>>>>> such as
>>>>>> >> this based on practical experience. Jeremy
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 at 19:41, Bill Roberts <bill@swirrl.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ah Jeremy, you are a brave man to poke the sleeping beast of
>>>>>> httpRange-14.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> But I'll get my thoughts in early, then I can tune out of the
>>>>>> ensuing mail
>>>>>> >> avalanche :-)
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> When publishing Linked Data about places we (at Swirrl) generally
>>>>>> do the
>>>>>> >> id/doc fandango, but to be honest I think data users either don't
>>>>>> notice,
>>>>>> >> or they get confused by it.  In the applications we are working
>>>>>> with (and I
>>>>>> >> acknowledge that others may have different applications and
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> >> experiences), it wouldn't cause any problems to have a single URI,
>>>>>> the 'id'
>>>>>> >> URI if you like.  We just don't find a need to say anything about
>>>>>> the /doc/
>>>>>> >> URI.  If we were starting again, I'd probably ditch the /doc/ and
>>>>>> the 303
>>>>>> >> and rely on context and a little bit of documentation to make it
>>>>>> clear what
>>>>>> >> we mean.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The place where we find a need to talk about creators and licences
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >> modified dates is in metadata about datasets where a dataset might
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> >> collection of information about a bunch of places - and we treat
>>>>>> datasets
>>>>>> >> as an 'information resource'. If someone requests a dataset URI we
>>>>>> return a
>>>>>> >> status code of 200 and the dataset metadata as the response.  That
>>>>>> metadata
>>>>>> >> includes info on where to get all the contents of the dataset if
>>>>>> you want
>>>>>> >> that.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> By the way, though it's sensible and consistent, I find that the
>>>>>> implied
>>>>>> >> and parallel property stuff makes it more rather than less
>>>>>> complicated.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Bill
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On 23 August 2016 at 17:37, Jeremy Tandy <jeremy.tandy@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> All-
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Linda has done a great job of consolidating the best practices are
>>>>>> use of
>>>>>> >> identifiers. We have just one [1] now.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Reading though just now, it occurred to me that there's still an
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> >> issue about identifier assignment ...
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> W3C's Architecture of the World Wide Web constraint "URIs identify
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >> single resource" [2] asserts "Assign distinct URIs to distinct
>>>>>> resources"
>>>>>> >> in order to avoid URI collisions [2a] which "often imposes a cost
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> >> communication due to the effort required to resolve ambiguities".
>>>>>> >> Discussions from earlier years in UK Gov Linked Data working group
>>>>>> (and
>>>>>> >> elsewhere) concluded that the "real world thing" and "information
>>>>>> resource
>>>>>> >> that describes the real world thing" are separate resources. I
>>>>>> think this
>>>>>> >> is based on a (purist?) view when working with RDF of needing to
>>>>>> be totally
>>>>>> >> clear on "what's the subject" of each triple ... the thing or the
>>>>>> document.
>>>>>> >> This manifests as URIs with `id` or `doc` included somewhere to
>>>>>> distinguish
>>>>>> >> between the resources and some RDF triples to clarify that the doc
>>>>>> resource
>>>>>> >> is talking about the thing resource etc..
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> (dangerously close to "httpRange-14" [3] here ... let's avoid that
>>>>>> bear
>>>>>> >> trap)
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Jeni Tennison's "URLs in Data Primer" draft TAG note captures this
>>>>>> >> practice in §5.3 "Publishing data" [4]:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ```
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Publishers can help enable more accurate merging of data from
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> >> sites if they support URLs for each entity
>>>>>> >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/urls-in-data/#dfn-entity> they or other
>>>>>> sites may
>>>>>> >> wish to describe, separate from the landing pages
>>>>>> >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/urls-in-data/#dfn-landing-page> or records
>>>>>> >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/urls-in-data/#dfn-record> that they
>>>>>> publish.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ```
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Yet Architecture of the World Wide Web §2.2.3 "Indirect
>>>>>> identification"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
> --
> Krzysztof Janowicz
>
> Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara
> 4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060
>
> Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu
> Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/
> Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net
>
>