Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms

Joe, the world is larger than the United States.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 at 02:36, Joe Duarte <songofapollo@gmail.com> wrote:

> ​Hi all – I'm puzzled again. ​
> How does this
> ​revision ​
> improve the situation? It still uses Royalist English
> ​ instead of American – that is, it still uses CampingPitch, which
> American publishers and web developers will be unfamiliar with. The
> American term is campsite. ​According to Michael Andrews, Indians also use
> campsite. I see three issues:
>
>    1. ​Why are we using Royalist English for official terms? By default,
>    shouldn't we be using American English since that's the vast majority of
>    the English-speaking user base in 2018?
>    2. The new paragraph is ponderous and out of place. It's a
>    copy-and-paste from Wikipedia and doesn't fit the schema.org context (
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite). There's a very long sentence
>    that veers into the Royalist English for a camping *area*. Then the
>    next sentence *very obliquely* reveals that the American term for a
>    camping pitch is campsite. It never actually says anything as clear as "The
>    American term for a camping pitch is campsite.​" The reason is that this
>    copy/paste from Wikipedia *is from an article called Campsite*. The
>    term campsite is assumed, and is the context for the write-up. Wikipedia is
>    not using Royalist English by default in this case, preferring the American
>    term, and their write-up makes a lot more sense as the intro to Campsite.
>    It makes much less sense as the intro to Camping Pitch, which is where
>    Richard put it.
>
>    3. ​Should schema.org provide some kind of localization for different
>    dialects of English? Camping pitch is a great example because Americans
>    will so thoroughly not understand it, ​since *pitch *is not understood
>    as an area. (Whereas campsite is self-explanatory.) But in Britain, they'll
>    need to use camping pitch. Can we have parallel terms?
>
>
> C
> ​heers,
>
> JD​
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018, 9:31 AM Richard Wallis <
> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>
>> Github pull request (#2003
>> <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/pull/2003>) created to update
>> the description of CampGround and CampingPitch.
>>
>> *CampGround:*
>>
>> A camping site, campsite, or Campground
>> <http://localhost:8080/Campground> is a place used for overnight stay in
>> the outdoors, typically containing individual CampingPitch
>> <http://localhost:8080/CampingPitch> locations.
>>
>> In British English a campsite is an area, usually divided into a number
>> of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or
>> caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous with the
>> American English expression campground. In American English the term
>> campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group, or
>> military unit can pitch a tent or park a camper; a campground may contain
>> many campsites (Source: Wikipedia see
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>
>> See also the dedicated document on the use of schema.org for marking up
>> hotels and other forms of accommodations
>> <http://localhost:8080/docs/hotels.html>.
>>
>>
>> *CampingPitch:*
>>
>> A CampingPitch <http://localhost:8080/CampingPitch> is an individual
>> place for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger
>> camping site, or Campground <http://localhost:8080/Campground>.
>>
>> In British English a campsite, or campground, is an area, usually divided
>> into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or
>> camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous
>> with the American English expression campground. In American English the
>> term campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group,
>> or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a campground may
>> contain many campsites. (Source: Wikipedia see
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>
>> See also the dedicated document on the use of schema.org for marking up
>> hotels and other forms of accommodations
>> <http://localhost:8080/docs/hotels.html>.
>>
>>
>> ~Richard.
>>
>> Richard Wallis
>> Founder, Data Liberate
>> http://dataliberate.com
>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>> Twitter: @rjw
>>
>> On 5 July 2018 at 19:01, Pete Rivett <pete.rivett@adaptive.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The proposal suggests, but does not make explicit, that in American
>>> English campsite is a synonym for CampingPitch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nitpick – there is a superfluous “s” in the following:
>>>
>>> means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can
>>> pitch a tent or parks a camper;
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 5, 2018 6:58 AM
>>> *To:* Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* schema.org Mailing List <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and
>>> proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @Thad & others,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Campground <https://schema.org/Campground> type has the following
>>> description:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A camping site, campsite, or campground is a place used for overnight
>>> stay in the outdoors. In British English a campsite is an area, usually
>>> divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using
>>> tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is
>>> synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American
>>> English the term campsite generally means an area where an individual,
>>> family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a
>>> campground may contain many campsites (Source: Wikipedia, the free
>>> encyclopedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Which I think covers things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whereas CampingPitch <https://schema.org/CampingPitch> has this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A camping pitch is an individual place for overnight stay in the
>>> outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping site.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Which, under the current discussion, is a little lacking.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I therefore propose this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A [[CampingPitch]] is an individual place for overnight stay in the
>>> outdoors, typically being part of a larger [[Campground]].
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In British English a campsite, or campground, is an area, usually
>>> divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using
>>> tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is
>>> synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American
>>> English the term *campsite* generally means an area where an
>>> individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a
>>> camper; a campground may contain many campsites.
>>>
>>> (Source: Wikipedia see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thoughts/comments?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Richard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Wallis
>>>
>>> Founder, Data Liberate
>>>
>>> http://dataliberate.com
>>>
>>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>>>
>>> Twitter: @rjw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 July 2018 at 14:12, Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Since I care more about "Getting things done"...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As to the Campsite/Campground ... the USA and its government is fairly
>>> clear and standardized on a Campground being the larger area and individual
>>> reservable "pitchs" as being called "campsites".  The NPS.gov has the data
>>> available as well with annual campsite bookings.  Here's one example:
>>> https://www.nps.gov/maca/planyourvisit/campgrounds.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And Texas and other states started "campsite" or "camping pitch"
>>> specific booking system just this year.
>>> https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/park-reservation-information/site-specific-booking
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So we probably could make mention about "campsite" and "campground" in
>>> the definition to improve things.  So let's at least do that to make things
>>> clear on both sides. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A camping pitch *(in the USA, a campsite)* is an individual place for
>>> overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping
>>> site *or campground.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *@Richard* - would you mind doing that to improve the definition a bit ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Thad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
Martin Bean
Director