Re: Back to identifiers

Thanks for bringing this to the list Karen.

Let me hopefully clarify a couple of things.

The particular circumstance, Karen and I have been going around in circles
about, is one, currently hypothetical, one.

That is when an administrator of identifiers, for example Bowkes for ISBNs,
publishes structured data about the identifiers they have published,
who/what they have issued them to, what for, and when etc..

In publishing that information they ideally will publish URIs for those
identifiers so that others can link to that information.  Thus this example:

 <http://bowker.com/identifiers/isbn/9780553479430>
      a skos:Concept;
      schema:name "9780553479430";
      schema:inScheme <http://bowker.com/concept-scheme/isbn> ;
      schema:focus <http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>.

Which tells us that this Thing - with a URI of
<http://bowker.com/identifiers/isbn/9780553479430> - is a Concept - has a
name/label/string of characters ³9780553479430² - the concept is in a scheme
defined at this URI <http://bowker.com/concept-scheme/isbn>  - and it is the
focus of another thing, a book in this case, with this URI
<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>.

Moving on to the book that has been given the ISBN ³9780553479430².  In this
scenario it has the URI <http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>.  That URI
is the identifier for the the conceptual thing, that has had associated with
it the standard number allocated by Bowkers.

When describing that book the URI you would use to linked to its allocated
standard number would be <http://bowker.com/identifiers/isbn/9780553479430>:

<http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>
     a schema:Book;
     schema:name ²War and Peace²;
     schema:identifier <http://bowker.com/identifiers/isbn/9780553479430>.

That is not to say that when marking up html, you would probably also
include the string.

The above examples are using a mixture of SKOS and not yet existent schema,
so would not be exactly as shown.


It is complex to clearly describe the subtleties here as, isbn is already
partially addresses in schema already, we are talking about two different
types of Œidentifiers¹, and as I say the situation is slightly hypothetical
(yet one that could well occur).

Hopeful I have clarified things a bit.

~Richard.




On 18/01/2013 15:20, "Karen Coyle" <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:

> After my last identifier post, Richard and I got into a long off-list
> conversation that should have taken place on-list. I'll try to bring it
> back.
> 
> Look at:
> 
> <http://bowker.com/identifiers/isbn/9780553479430>
>      a skos:Concept;
>      schema:name "9780553479430";
>      schema:inScheme <http://bowker.com/concept-scheme/isbn> ;
>      schema:focus <http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>.
> 
> <http://bowker.com/concept-scheme/isbn>
>      a skos:ConceptScheme;
>      schema:name "ISBN Identifier Scheme".
> 
> 
> which is on our identifier page. http://tinyurl.com/balwg8h
> 
> It was my impression that the identifier property was needed only for
> those identifiers that do not have a URI. Ones I can think of include
> the government document numbers issued by the US gov't printing agency,
> and the music publisher numbers.
> 
> Government doc no.
> 
>      Y 4.B 22/3:S.HRG.104-869/V.1-
> 
> Publisher no.
> 
>      M 640 Victor (set : manual sequence)
>      15827 Victor
> 
> Essentially, we need to be able to carry the context/authority along
> with the identifier so you know whose identifier it is.
> 
> In the above example from the page, the ISBN, we have learned, *does*
> have a URI and therefore should not need any further information.
> However, Richard has stated to me that:
> 
> *****
> 
> "The ISBN is a string of characters (in ISBN scheme that Bowkers administer)
> that they have issued to represent the book - it is not the book.
> 
> The WorldCat URI identifies the Book.
> 
> Follow this bit of logic, using your assumption.
> 
> <http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>
>   a schema:Book;
>   schema:isbn <http://bowker.com/isbn/9780553479430>;
>   schema:name "War and Peace".
> 
> <http://bowker.com/isbn/9780553479430>
>    a schema:Book;
>    schema:name "War and Peace";
>    owl:sameAs <http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38264520>.
> 
> This in effect is saying that the isbn is a Book.  You end up in a circular
> loop.
> 
> The WorldCat URI is just that, a URI that represents the book.
> An ISBN URI is a URI that represents the string of characters that have
> been assigned.
> 
> *****
> 
> So the difference in viewpoint here is that I consider the ISBN (whether
> as a URI or not) to be an identifier for the book. Richard's view is
> that the ISBN URI is an identifier for the ISBN. Thus the example on the
> page.
> 
> I think that much of the confusion here has to do with equating SKOS and
> URIs for strings. However, I do not see identifiers as skos:concept.
> They are identifiers. Thus an ISBN is a Book, and for use an ISBN in URI
> form is as much a Book as a Worldcat ID or an LCCN or a National
> Bibliographic Number.
> 
> That's it in a nutshell.
> 
> kc