Re: Temporal Stack

interleave...

On Sat, 8 May 2021 at 19:01, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 8 May 2021 at 03:26, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> cheers...
>>
>> a bit of digging led to:
>> https://www.madmode.com/2012/bake-fry-frozen-flask.html which then led
>> to:  http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000404
>>
>
> DanC had a lot of good ideas when he was active and I believe was part of
> the input to "Paper Trail"
>
>
https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/browser/#http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW//People.html


> His comment here:
>
> "Using a database-backed, through-the-web blogging tool was a big change
> for me, after over a decade of using version-controlled static files at W3C"
>
> Version control has come a long way since he wrote that in 2012.
> Especially with git based systems and web based git systems.  The immersive
> read write experience with version control seems a step closer
>
> But there's a sight paradox.  And that is while git is designed to be
> decentralized, github is has become used as a semi-centralized way of doing
> things.
>
> You make a change on the web or on your file system, and then you write
> and commit it to git locally, and usually you push that change to github
> etc.
>

so, conceptually 'webgit:// http://site.domain/resource#fragment' ? (poorly
structured example, but hope it makes part of the point ...)

which leans into - something similar i've been thinking about since -
around how a potential IANA URI schema might be applied to the problem; but
then, it seems to have a loosely coupled relationship to RWW...

one of the problems with DIDs (or other non-HTTP uris); seems to be, that
alot of infrastructure kit (including industry specific solutions, ie:
broadcast) expects HTTP uris. broadly, this has implications relating to
hardware firmware updates - amongst the many other things...

Which then reminds me of HTTPA (
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2012/Papers/WWW_PhD_Symposium/presentation.pdf ) -
noting that there's a few old DIG references to similar works:
https://www.google.com/search?q=thesis+site%3Adig.csail.mit.edu+filetype%3Apdf
<https://www.google.com/search?q=thesis+site%3Adig.csail.mit.edu+filetype%3Apdf>



> What is needed is web scale version control
>
> This would allow reading and writing to the web, and browsing the history,
> without it being controlled by one silo, one archival service or one website
>

Referring back to my prior note: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000404
<http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000404> led to
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000399  Which Led to:
https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/chord:tburkard-meng.pdf
<https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/chord:tburkard-meng.pdf>
MAYBE: when considering the 'threads' (and the need to figure out the
provenance of 'stuff', even within this small community working on this
particular type of problem); the outcome is in thinking about how to
reimagine 'RWW' not simply in a linear manner (ie: schrodingers cat,
whereby the focus is 'in the box'); but rather, via a 'multi-universe'
kinda theory; that's moreover focused on 'append' relations...

Seems, it would require an ecosystem of 'standards recommendations' to
exist; so that there's an array of functionality that's expected to exist
(taking into account modern requirements - ie: SemWeb stuff, multimedia
(dealing with deep fakes)); but then, i'm also thinking about what works
have already been done, that may in-turn offer some short-cuts, to better
outcomes.

Still thinking about it.  just found http://eastgate.com/Tinderbox/ (due to
the aaronsw links);

I think a big part of the underlying problem is in trying to figure out how
to do (bad) 'agent assessment'; which is a complex thing to do.  There's a
big difference between someone who intends harm, vs. someone whose actions
have unintentionally caused harm vs. wilful negligence (stuff that's linked
to 'intent'); which is then linked to provenance, knowledge / information,
privacy / dignity / (commercial and/or 'legal personality' investiture /
influences).   Presently, the vast majority of the western world is
increasingly dependent upon californian entities; but it doesn't seem to
extend to non-western world in a similar way (much bigger population or %
of the world, but not 'liberalised democracies', etc.); so, as people are
lifted out of poverty, 'inter-national' 'peace-fair' (fair dealings),
through our lens ('rule of law' is often made 'mute' online); then, there's
a bunch of capacity to produce meaningful assumptions that are required for
productivity enhancements; as required, to deliver sustainably maintainable
yield, in our world; as supported with our communications infrastructure.
 I also have a bunch of considerations about software agents (tools or
rulers?) - but i'll set that side for now.

SO, in-terms of 'selling a concept' of how to fix this problem to W3C
Stakeholders (as seems to be the mechanism of great importance)  |  What
are the benefits of ensuring our future can be built upon reliable
'history' (temporal) infrastructure?  What's the threats if that's not done
(properly) or is made to be knowingly dodgy;  an environment post paper /
print era; where the evidence disappears before it can go to a court of
law...  does that mean, we're supporting liberalised democracies?  or...
how would you describe the implications...  who excels, becomes leaders.
is it based on STEM (or STEAM / liberal arts), how do we improve
association, rather than dissociation and dissociative behaviours...

How could doing the provenance graph on COVID from beginning to present;
help us stand with pride about the health of our
jurisdictional inter-national governmental systems and their illustrated
means to work in concert, locking down upto 3.5 Billion people people
simultaneously in the world (
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/coronavirus-moscow-and-lagos-in-lockdown-as-countries-tighten-restrictions
) a thing that's never before been possible, prior to broadband..,.
amongst the many other traits, facts, things; to show, how it is we're
doing our best to make a better world for kids...

how could those sorts of relatively basic examples; when employed with a
system that worked properly, how could it be that stakeholders would fully
back / support the delivery of a solution in this field...

I am reminded by the note that says - "History is always written by the
winners."  but maybe the modern version needs to be 'History is always
re-written by the winners.', which may mean a different thing, to different
agents, at any given time via a dynamic medium that's apparently designed
to protect, preserve and support mankind's ability to thrive; both, in our
liberalised democracies, and elsewhere more broadly.

Bit lost with it...  even though I do think there's some important issues
to solve therein...


Timothy Holborn,.



>
>>
>> On Sat, 8 May 2021 at 03:28, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 17:42, Sebastian Samaruga <ssamarug@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Isn't this HTTP E-Tag header purpose? (Versioning / Cache handling)
>>>>
>>>> And "If-modified-since" header could also come of use, if we talk about
>>>> state (representation) of the same HATEOAS (REST) entity preserving its
>>>> identifier (the immutable part in a domain).
>>>>
>>>> Also, a previous post in the public-webapps and other lists: "A less
>>>> ephemeral web" states things that could benefit onto what you propose.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  I was rereading lately Paper Trail:
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/PaperTrail
>>>
>>> Generalized form:
>>>
>>> Generalizing for formal protocols
>>> The concept of a paper trail is common in conventional administration,
>>> but the model can also be applied to well-defined computer protocols.
>>>
>>> Model
>>> The model is that a protocol P defines a status sn as a function of a
>>> message m and a previous state sn-1, and the time t.
>>>
>>> sn= P(mn, sn-1, t)
>>>
>>> or for that matter as a function of all the messages to date
>>>
>>> sn= P'({mi}i=1..n)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021, 9:37 AM Timothy Holborn <
>>>> timothy.holborn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> had a think.  thought i'd post it.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMO there's cause to build into WWW / HTTP a method to support
>>>>> temporal lookups, other than simply using archive.org.   i imagine
>>>>> this would eventually require ICANN, IETF (etc) support; amongst other
>>>>> implications.
>>>>>
>>>>> The functional outcome would be an ability to look up a page at a
>>>>> particular date.   This may involve differences in who owned the domain
>>>>> name at that time (vs. who may own it later on), amongst many other
>>>>> implications.  There would have to be a 'format' of 'standards' around how
>>>>> to achieve it, for long-term support.
>>>>>
>>>>> Foundational requirements, prior to more easily engaging CMS providers
>>>>> such as Wordpress / automattic, drupal, etc.  would be to define a simple
>>>>> concept that could be built upon to do it.  I imagine it may take some
>>>>> years to do, and i'm not entirely sure i'm up for it - historically no
>>>>> funding for work by civics persons (civilians, working independent of
>>>>> contract / employment revenue) for doing W3C works; maybe, with new changes
>>>>> that might be reviewed; but regardless,
>>>>>
>>>>> cost of storage, etc. has been dropping.  I'm not sure what the
>>>>> economic model for it would be, but i can think of a variety of ways a
>>>>> solution that attends to the economic implications could be forged.  I also
>>>>> think, an evaluation may lead to an outcome where it's able to be
>>>>> understood how to do it at a lower energy cost than simply employing DHTs /
>>>>> Blockchains ("DLTs"), although the file-system layer may be considered
>>>>> independently, atm, idk; and don't really want to make the point any more
>>>>> complicated than it needs to be for now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Timothy Holborn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>