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Re: How the father of the World Wide Web plans to reclaim it from Facebook and Google

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:36:24 -0400
To: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>, business-of-linked-data-bold <business-of-linked-data-bold@googlegroups.com>
Cc: public-rww <public-rww@w3.org>
Message-ID: <9cd3c9fe-1114-7e1b-842a-87871ac8e6e9@openlinksw.com>
On 8/25/16 5:24 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>
>
> On 25 August 2016 at 04:10, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com
> <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 8/24/16 2:00 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>
>>
>>     On 24 August 2016 at 18:25, Kingsley Idehen
>>     <kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         On 8/24/16 9:08 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>         On 24 August 2016 at 13:55, Kingsley Idehen
>>>         <kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             On 8/24/16 3:52 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             On 24 August 2016 at 04:17, Kingsley Idehen
>>>>             <kidehen@openlinksw.com
>>>>             <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 On 8/23/16 6:56 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 On 24 August 2016 at 00:28, Kingsley Idehen
>>>>>                 <kidehen@openlinksw.com
>>>>>                 <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                     On 8/23/16 5:36 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>>>                     yes, i was able to create a file, nice!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     On 23 August 2016 at 20:43, Kingsley Idehen
>>>>>>                     <kidehen@openlinksw.com
>>>>>>                     <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         On 8/23/16 2:25 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                         On 22 August 2016 at 14:49, Kingsley
>>>>>>>                         Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com
>>>>>>>                         <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                             On 8/22/16 4:34 AM, Timothy Holborn
>>>>>>>                             wrote:
>>>>>>>>                             Kingsley, 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                             Most of the interesting open data
>>>>>>>>                             related platforms plug into Virtuoso.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                             They support open standards.
>>>>>>>                             Virtuoso supports open standards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                             I think you need to step it up a
>>>>>>>>                             bit, and am happy to help, but am
>>>>>>>>                             unsure of the best way to go about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                             I am totally unsure of what Virtuoso
>>>>>>>                             has to add to this matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                             If SoLiD is Virtuoso compatible, I
>>>>>>>>                             think the answer is bit of a
>>>>>>>>                             no-brainer. 
>>>>>>>>                             Question remains one of business
>>>>>>>>                             systems, rather than exclusively Tech.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                             Virtuoso supports all the open
>>>>>>>                             standards covered by SoLiD, and some
>>>>>>>                             (e.g., WebID+TLS+Delegation).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                             We need to speak clearly about these
>>>>>>>                             issues otherwise we have nothing but
>>>>>>>                             confusion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                         What will be really amazing is when
>>>>>>>                         Solid apps are tested to run on an
>>>>>>>                         openlink backend and vice versa.
>>>>>>>                          
>>>>>>                         Melvin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         So why don't I share a folder endpoint
>>>>>>                         [1] and the you try to use SoLiD to
>>>>>>                         create a document in that folder?
>>>>>>                         Naturally, I would need to grant access
>>>>>>                         to you via your WebID (which I assume to
>>>>>>                         be: https://melvincarvalho.com/#me) .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         Links:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         [1]
>>>>>>                         http://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid/
>>>>>>                         <http://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid/>
>>>>>>                         [2]
>>>>>>                         https://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid/
>>>>>>                         <https://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid/>
>>>>>>                         [3]
>>>>>>                         http://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid%2Cacl
>>>>>>                         <http://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid%2Cacl>
>>>>>>                         -- ACL doc (your webid has access to this
>>>>>>                         too!)
>>>>>>                         [4]
>>>>>>                         https://linkeddata.uriburner.com/rdf-editor
>>>>>>                         <https://linkeddata.uriburner.com/rdf-editor>
>>>>>>                         -- Editor that can be used to compare
>>>>>>                         experience re. creation of document in
>>>>>>                         the sample/qa folder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         -- 
>>>>>>                         Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         Kingsley Idehen	      
>>>>>>                         Founder & CEO 
>>>>>>                         OpenLink Software   (Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
>>>>>>                         Blogspot Blog: http://kidehen.blogspot.com
>>>>>>                         Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
>>>>>>                         Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
>>>>>>                         <https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about>
>>>>>>                         LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>>>>>                         <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen>
>>>>>>                         Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this
>>>>>>                         <http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>                     <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. 
>>>>>
>>>>>                     Melvin,
>>>>>
>>>>>                     Does that imply things are fine re. SoLiD or not?
>>>>>
>>>>>                 One test is passing at least, which is a good sign!
>>>>>                 I think to say things are 'fine' we really need to
>>>>>                 develop a test suite and run
>>>>>                 tests.  There may be other
>>>>>                 ways, but that seems to be tried and tested.
>>>>
>>>>                 Melvin,
>>>>
>>>>                 I am trying to avoid "OpenLink doesn't support
>>>>                 SoLiD" cycles that keep on reoccurring.
>>>>
>>>>             Got it.  But it requires testing and possibly
>>>>             some bug fixing. 
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>                 If there is a pattern that fails it should be
>>>>                 identified and demonstrated.
>>>>
>>>>             This is where a test suite comes in handy.  W3C
>>>>             working groups typically require 1-3 years for
>>>>             this.  I think we need a similar process. There
>>>>             may be short cuts but it would normally require one
>>>>             dedicated tester.
>>>
>>>             W3C process != Practical Commercial process.
>>>
>>>             Having worked on interop for more than 20+ years re.,
>>>             standards like SQL, ODBC, JDBC, ADO.NET
>>>             <http://ADO.NET>, HTTP, and others, the process has more
>>>             to do with willingness to collaborate than anything else.
>>>
>>>             Given a server application (server) that implements
>>>             standard X, there should be N number of client
>>>             application (client) users willing enough to test
>>>             interop as part of a practical QA process. Right now,
>>>             the big issue is that interop gets scoped to the wrong
>>>             levels.
>>>
>>>         Presently I see people testing Solid against
>>>         node-solid-server and gold. Previously I have seen testing
>>>         against LDPHP.  I've only seen you and sometimes me test
>>>         against an openlink back end and that's when we have a bit
>>>         of time free.
>>         Yes, but once again, its a case of understanding the roles of
>>         compliant servers and clients. Virtuoso is a compliant
>>         server. All you need is an endpoint and away you go. It
>>         either works or it fails. If it fails simply report what's
>>         failing. 
>>
>>     Is virtuoso Solid compliant?  Compliant to what?  Has it been
>>     tested?  
>     What do you mean by any of those questions?  Put differently, why
>     don't you provide cURL based examples of what doesn't work, based
>     on your expectations?
>>     Does it handle globbing?  
>     cURL example please.
>>     Does it handle websockets?  
>     You now it does.
>>     Does it comply to the ACL spec? 
>     How did you end up creating a resource in a folder if it didn't
>     comply with ACLs scoped to your WebID?
>>     Does it support inboxes?  
>     What is an inbox? Put differently, how is it different from folder
>     where you store documents?
>>     Does it support Linked Data Notifications.  
>     No it doesn't .
>>     Does it comply to the sections of the latest solid spec? 
>     What are those?
>>     What browser coverage does it have, what breaks?  These are
>>     questions we are going through on a daily basis with other
>>     backends.  
>     Instead of asking these questions you could demonstrate your point
>     with a SoLiD client and/or curl interaction examples.
>>     Â 
>>
>>>             What do I mean by "wrong levels" ? The fact that this
>>>             kind of testing gets lost in presumptive patterns rife
>>>             with compilation and platform dependencies e.g., open
>>>             source and all the modules required to be located and
>>>             built. After that, testers then find out that they have
>>>             to right code to perform basic interop.
>>>
>>>         I think you mean people do not have the time to work though
>>>         and fix bugs.
>>         No, I mean it is being approached the wrong way.  What you
>>         need is: 1. List of compliant servers and their live
>>         endpoints 2. List of compliant clients 3. Folks testing the
>>         clients and the servers (this doesn't always have to be the
>>         developers of either client or server being tested). There
>>         isn't a single guideline that states: To verify or have some
>>         else verify SoLiD based interop, simply add your SoLiD
>>         compliant server and its endpoint to the list in the page at
>>         <some-server-usage-doc-location-uri> . To verify or have some
>>         else verify SoLiD based interop, simply add your SoLiD
>>         compliant client applications and a usage guide document link
>>         to the page at: <some-client-app-usage-doc-location-uri> .
>>         Post your results or share you experience via comments or
>>         reports to a document at:
>>         <some-interop-results-doc-location-uri> . 
>>
>>     We are doing this constantly in the gitter channel.  Behind that
>>     lies the github solid repo which has active issue tracking. 
>>     Â 
>>
>>>         Â  As it's a new technology inevitably there will be bugs,
>>>         it needs a lot of persistence to work through. Openlink is
>>>         not immune to bugs either, I have found and reported some
>>>         myself. 
>>         Do you have a link to SoLiD related bugs or issues? That's
>>         all we need. 
>>
>>     Various repos under: https://github.com/solid
>>     Pretty much all have issue tracking
>>     Â 
>>
>>>             Interop should simply be about compliant client N
>>>             talking to compliant server X. That's it. We don't need
>>>             6 months to pull that off, let alone 1-3 years.
>>>
>>>             I am happy to perform interop with anyone (partner or
>>>             competitor or customer) using the basic pattern outlined
>>>             above. The end results are mutually beneficial, as they
>>>             should be, when working with standards compliance.
>>>
>>>         Then just do it!
>>         I am confused. What is it that we haven't done? 
>>
>>     Any kind of serious testing.  My original point.  If solid apps
>>     work on virtuoso that's going to be a big win.  Write a backend,
>>     write apps.  Test on virtuoso, test on node solid server, test
>>     on gold.  That is the test of compliance.  Failing that, work
>>     on passing a test suite.
>>     Â 
>>
>>>         Â  I still believe the process we are using right now has
>>>         not yielded fast progress, but a working group where people
>>>         actually commit to deliverables does achieve interop.  It's
>>>         just a question of how much time each process takes. The
>>>         thing about a WG is that you generally commit 1 day a week
>>>         or as much as 0.5 of a FTE, per company involved. That's a
>>>         more resource that is currently being employed.
>>         There is subtle confusion about my point reflected in your
>>         last two comments. If a SoLiD client fails to work with my
>>         Virtuoso instance, then simply indicate what the issue is.
>>         You can also share a list of SoLiD apps here and I can once
>>         again test them. That said, I have zero interest in compiling
>>         anyting or heading out on module graph bounties. I just want
>>         to install something and test. 
>>
>>     Yes, I think we're talking high level perspective vs low level
>>     perspective.  The devil is in the detail. 
>>     I will be working on my own back end "solid live" and the acid
>>     test for me will be whether solid apps can work with it.  
>     Your description of SoLiD, as exemplified by this exchange, isn't
>     how you make progress. First off, you need to be able to actually
>     describe what SoLiD actually is, clearly. Simply declaring things
>     as compliant vs non compliant, without any clarity isn't the way
>     to generate uptake and interop activity. What is the fundamental
>     goal of SoLiD? What is does it actually offer right now, that
>     uniquely distinguishes it with regards to using HTTP, WebDAV, LDP,
>     Web ACLs, WebID+TLS, WebID+TLS+Delegation, SPARQL Graph Protocol,
>     SPARQL 1.1 etc. to perform Read-Write operations? Answering this
>     question is crucial :) Kingsley 
>
> Have you looked at this? https://github.com/solid/solid-spec

Melvin,

You know I've looked at that, and much more. We are having a public
discussion and its really important that you (and other SoLiD
supporters) embark on the following:

1. Articulate what problem SoLiD solves, uniquely

2. Demonstrate how SoLiD delivers on its value proposition via simple
Client and Server implementations that just work i.e., no coding and
compilation involved.

We have a maze of technologies and "best practices" all conflated under
SoLiD, unfortunately. That doesn't make for a sound interop basis when
you have failure points at the following levels:

[1] WebID Authentication using WebID+TLS protocol

[2] WebID+TLS authentication protocol and Browser UX issue -- which is
solved by WebID+TLS+Delegation protocol

[3] Non-existent interop efforts across WebID+TLS, WebID+TLS+Delegation
compliant clients and servers

[4] Non-existent interop efforts across WebACL compliant clients and servers

[5] All of the above for LDP compliant clients and servers; ditto SPARQL
Graph Protocol and SPARQL 1.1 compliant clients and servers.

Without 1-5 sorted out, you have nothing to work with, in a practical
sense.

Links:

[1]
https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog/http-read-write-operations-using-ldp-protocols-virtuoso-http-s-server-bdaa2736169f#.uj8bvbuwu
-- Example of interop using Virtuoso as server and cURL as the client
with regards to Read-Write operations over HTTP

[2]
https://medium.com/@kidehen/note-about-solid-a-loosely-coupled-read-write-initiative-f56113484bbb#.6mypw3psh
-- What is SoLiD

[3] https://github.com/solid/solid#standards-used -- reiterating my
points about conflating standards, "best practices", and applications .

-- 
Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	      
Founder & CEO 
OpenLink Software   (Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com)

Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
Blogspot Blog: http://kidehen.blogspot.com
Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this



Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 13:36:50 UTC

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