- From: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:24:04 +0200
- To: business-of-linked-data-bold <business-of-linked-data-bold@googlegroups.com>
- Cc: public-rww <public-rww@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAKaEYh+=NtgocQ+FHULnBegjJNjH8YY0+csRiAMjDgg_mPZyog@mail.gmail.com>
On 25 August 2016 at 04:10, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> wrote: > On 8/24/16 2:00 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: > > > > On 24 August 2016 at 18:25, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> > wrote: > >> On 8/24/16 9:08 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >> >> >> >> On 24 August 2016 at 13:55, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 8/24/16 3:52 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24 August 2016 at 04:17, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 8/23/16 6:56 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24 August 2016 at 00:28, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 8/23/16 5:36 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >>>>> >>>>> yes, i was able to create a file, nice! >>>>> >>>>> On 23 August 2016 at 20:43, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 8/23/16 2:25 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 22 August 2016 at 14:49, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/22/16 4:34 AM, Timothy Holborn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kingsley, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most of the interesting open data related platforms plug into >>>>>>> Virtuoso. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They support open standards. Virtuoso supports open standards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you need to step it up a bit, and am happy to help, but am >>>>>>> unsure of the best way to go about it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am totally unsure of what Virtuoso has to add to this matter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If SoLiD is Virtuoso compatible, I think the answer is bit of a >>>>>>> no-brainer. Question remains one of business systems, rather than >>>>>>> exclusively Tech. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Virtuoso supports all the open standards covered by SoLiD, and some >>>>>>> (e.g., WebID+TLS+Delegation). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need to speak clearly about these issues otherwise we have >>>>>>> nothing but confusion. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What will be really amazing is when Solid apps are tested to run on >>>>>> an openlink backend and vice versa. >>>>>>  >>>>>> >>>>>> Melvin, >>>>>> >>>>>> So why don't I share a folder endpoint [1] and the you try to use >>>>>> SoLiD to create a document in that folder? Naturally, I would need to grant >>>>>> access to you via your WebID (which I assume to be: >>>>>> https://melvincarvalho.com/#me) . >>>>>> >>>>>> Links: >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] http://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid/ >>>>>> [2] https://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid/ >>>>>> [3] http://kingsley.idehen.net/DAV/home/kidehen/Public/solid%2Cacl >>>>>> -- ACL doc (your webid has access to this too!) >>>>>> [4] https://linkeddata.uriburner.com/rdf-editor -- Editor that can >>>>>> be used to compare experience re. creation of document in the sample/qa >>>>>> folder. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Kingsley Idehen >>>>>> Founder & CEO >>>>>> OpenLink Software (Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com) >>>>>> >>>>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen >>>>>> Blogspot Blog: http://kidehen.blogspot.com >>>>>> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen >>>>>> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about >>>>>> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen >>>>>> Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this >>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Business Of Linked Data (BOLD)" group. To unsubscribe from this >>>>>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>>>>> business-of-linked-data-bold+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more >>>>>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Business Of Linked Data (BOLD)" group. To unsubscribe from this >>>>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>>>> business-of-linked-data-bold+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more >>>>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> Melvin, >>>>> >>>>> Does that imply things are fine re. SoLiD or not? >>>>> >>>> One test is passing at least, which is a good sign! >>>> I think to say things are 'fine' we really need to develop a test suite >>>> and run tests. There may be other ways, but that seems to be tried >>>> and tested. >>>> >>>> Melvin, >>>> >>>> I am trying to avoid "OpenLink doesn't support SoLiD" cycles that keep >>>> on reoccurring. >>>> >>> Got it. But it requires testing and possibly some bug fixing. >>>  >>> >>>> If there is a pattern that fails it should be identified and >>>> demonstrated. >>>> >>> This is where a test suite comes in handy. W3C working groups >>> typically require 1-3 years for this. I think we need a similar >>> process. There may be short cuts but it would normally require one >>> dedicated tester. >>> >>> W3C process != Practical Commercial process. >>> >>> Having worked on interop for more than 20+ years re., standards like >>> SQL, ODBC, JDBC, ADO.NET, HTTP, and others, the process has more to do >>> with willingness to collaborate than anything else. >>> >>> Given a server application (server) that implements standard X, there >>> should be N number of client application (client) users willing enough to >>> test interop as part of a practical QA process. Right now, the big issue is >>> that interop gets scoped to the wrong levels. >>> >> Presently I see people testing Solid against node-solid-server and gold. >> Previously I have seen testing against LDPHP. I've only seen you and >> sometimes me test against an openlink back end and that's when we have a >> bit of time free. >> >> Yes, but once again, its a case of understanding the roles of compliant >> servers and clients. Virtuoso is a compliant server. All you need is an >> endpoint and away you go. It either works or it fails. If it fails simply >> report what's failing. >> > Is virtuoso Solid compliant? Compliant to what? Has it been tested? > > What do you mean by any of those questions? Put differently, why don't > you provide cURL based examples of what doesn't work, based on your > expectations? > > Does it handle globbing? > > cURL example please. > > Does it handle websockets? > > You now it does. > > Does it comply to the ACL spec? > > How did you end up creating a resource in a folder if it didn't comply > with ACLs scoped to your WebID? > > Does it support inboxes? > > What is an inbox? Put differently, how is it different from folder where > you store documents? > > Does it support Linked Data Notifications. > > No it doesn't . > > Does it comply to the sections of the latest solid spec? > > What are those? > > What browser coverage does it have, what breaks? These are questions we > are going through on a daily basis with other backends. > > Instead of asking these questions you could demonstrate your point with a > SoLiD client and/or curl interaction examples. > > > >> What do I mean by "wrong levels" ? The fact that this kind of testing >>> gets lost in presumptive patterns rife with compilation and platform >>> dependencies e.g., open source and all the modules required to be located >>> and built. After that, testers then find out that they have to right code >>> to perform basic interop. >>> >> I think you mean people do not have the time to work though and fix bugs. >> >> No, I mean it is being approached the wrong way. What you need is: 1. >> List of compliant servers and their live endpoints 2. List of compliant >> clients 3. Folks testing the clients and the servers (this doesn't always >> have to be the developers of either client or server being tested). There >> isn't a single guideline that states: To verify or have some else verify >> SoLiD based interop, simply add your SoLiD compliant server and its >> endpoint to the list in the page at <some-server-usage-doc-location-uri> >> . To verify or have some else verify SoLiD based interop, simply add your >> SoLiD compliant client applications and a usage guide document link to the >> page at: <some-client-app-usage-doc-location-uri> . Post your results or >> share you experience via comments or reports to a document at: >> <some-interop-results-doc-location-uri> . >> > We are doing this constantly in the gitter channel. Behind that lies the > github solid repo which has active issue tracking. > > >> As it's a new technology inevitably there will be bugs, it needs a lot >> of persistence to work through. Openlink is not immune to bugs either, I >> have found and reported some myself. >> >> Do you have a link to SoLiD related bugs or issues? That's all we need. >> > Various repos under: https://github.com/solid > Pretty much all have issue tracking > > >> Interop should simply be about compliant client N talking to compliant >>> server X. That's it. We don't need 6 months to pull that off, let alone 1-3 >>> years. >>> >>> I am happy to perform interop with anyone (partner or competitor or >>> customer) using the basic pattern outlined above. The end results are >>> mutually beneficial, as they should be, when working with standards >>> compliance. >>> >> Then just do it! >> >> I am confused. What is it that we haven't done? >> > Any kind of serious testing. My original point. If solid apps work on > virtuoso that's going to be a big win. Write a backend, write apps. Test > on virtuoso, test on node solid server, test on gold. That is the test of > compliance. Failing that, work on passing a test suite. > > >> I still believe the process we are using right now has not yielded fast >> progress, but a working group where people actually commit to deliverables >> does achieve interop. It's just a question of how much time each process >> takes. The thing about a WG is that you generally commit 1 day a week or as >> much as 0.5 of a FTE, per company involved. That's a more resource that is >> currently being employed. >> >> There is subtle confusion about my point reflected in your last two >> comments. If a SoLiD client fails to work with my Virtuoso instance, then >> simply indicate what the issue is. You can also share a list of SoLiD apps >> here and I can once again test them. That said, I have zero interest in >> compiling anyting or heading out on module graph bounties. I just want to >> install something and test. >> > Yes, I think we're talking high level perspective vs low level > perspective. The devil is in the detail. > I will be working on my own back end "solid live" and the acid test for me > will be whether solid apps can work with it. > > Your description of SoLiD, as exemplified by this exchange, isn't how you > make progress. First off, you need to be able to actually describe what > SoLiD actually is, clearly. Simply declaring things as compliant vs non > compliant, without any clarity isn't the way to generate uptake and interop > activity. What is the fundamental goal of SoLiD? What is does it actually > offer right now, that uniquely distinguishes it with regards to using HTTP, > WebDAV, LDP, Web ACLs, WebID+TLS, WebID+TLS+Delegation, SPARQL Graph > Protocol, SPARQL 1.1 etc. to perform Read-Write operations? Answering this > question is crucial :) Kingsley > Have you looked at this? https://github.com/solid/solid-spec > > >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Kingsley Idehen >> Founder & CEO >> OpenLink Software (Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com) >> >> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen >> Blogspot Blog: http://kidehen.blogspot.com >> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen >> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about >> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen >> Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Business Of Linked Data (BOLD)" group. To unsubscribe from this >> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >> business-of-linked-data-bold+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more >> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > Regards, > > Kingsley Idehen > Founder & CEO > OpenLink Software (Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com) > > Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen > Blogspot Blog: http://kidehen.blogspot.com > Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen > Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about > LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen > Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Business Of Linked Data (BOLD)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to business-of-linked-data-bold+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >
Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 09:24:41 UTC