Re: Ongoing objection to RDFa Profiles format (as XHTML+RDFa)

On 09/08/2010 02:30 PM, Mark Birbeck wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Ivan Herman <> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I am sorry but these things have already been discussed, and the WG has
>> decided to go along the lines it has now. I do not see any new information
>> here, ie, no argument that has not been discussed before. Reopening a closed
>> issue is really not a good way forward.
> As you rightly say the issue was resolved by the WG some months ago.
> However, I never supported the original resolution:
>   <>
> and I'm afraid I can't support it now. I'm not really sure what people
> expect me to do, since I didn't say I could live with this -- I said I
> oppose it.
> For me this is particularly compounded by the fact that I've yet to
> see a decent argument in favour of using RDF to express the prefix
> mappings (as opposed to name/value pairs as is done in N3, SPARQL,
> RDF/XML, and so on); you say that "these things have already been
> discussed", but I don't feel the discussion really nailed this.

Hi Mark,

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I had promised you a follow-up to
this e-mail at some point in the past month. I've seen the "why are we
using RDF to express prefix mappings?" question raised by you several
times with no in-depth answer from the list, so here's my attempt at
summarizing the conversation over the past several months with the
various parties involved.

RDFa Vocabulary/Profile Orthogonality

I think the short answer is that we're using RDF to express the
information because we expect that many of the RDFa Profile documents
will be most useful to people as human-readable documents that just
happen to contain machine-readable RDFa. Take the FOAF vocabulary for
example - it's human-readable:

but it is also machine-readable via XHTML+RDFa, here are the triples:

We are expecting the RDFa Profile documents to be marked up in the same
way, for example, here is the Good Relations RDFa Profile document:

and here's the machine-readable triples from the document:

Note that the same document is used to provide both the human-readable
(HTML) and machine readable (RDFa) information for the FOAF Vocabulary.
Also note that the identical XHTML+RDFa mechanism was used to generate
the Good Relations RDFa Profile.

This orthogonality is very important, and is one of the main driving
reasons to mark up RDFa Profiles in RDFa.

There is no difference between how one goes about creating an ideal
vocabulary document and an ideal profile document for use with RDFa. So,
if someone understands how to write XHTML+RDFa, the likelihood that they
will be able to write an RDFa Vocabulary document and an RDFa Profile
document is higher if we don't switch the underlying format on them.

Now, let's take a few of the suggestions that you have made - flat text
files with key-value pairs, JSON, and using a @prefix-based mechanism.

Each one of these approaches requires someone that already knows
XHTML+RDFa to understand that RDFa Profiles operate differently than the
rest of XHTML+RDFa. That is, one must write XHTML+RDFa Vocabulary
documents in one way, and RDFa Profile documents in another way.

Human-readability of RDFa Profiles

In the case of flat text files with key-value pairs, we don't have any
human-readable aspect to the files - just machine readable data. The
same problem exists with JSON (which may or may not be understood by the
person writing HTML+RDFa). To understand why this is such a bad idea,
one can look at the OWL vocabulary:

Trying to understand how to use OWL by just looking at the
machine-readable vocabulary is painful and error prone. Given the choice
between the way FOAF describes how their vocabulary can be used, and the
way that OWL does the same thing - the choice is pretty clear from a
human-readability point of view.

So, advocating a mechanism to express RDFa Profiles in a way that is not
human-readable is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.

You had also mentioned that we could perhaps re-use @prefix in an RDFa
Profile document to express all of the prefixes and terms for the RDFa
Profile. This would allow us to express the document in a human and
machine readable way. However, the major drawback to this approach is
that all of the prefix/term settings would be shoved into one attribute.

Future Proofing RDFa Profiles

If we wanted to modify RDFa Processor behavior by decorating prefix/term
mappings via another mechanism, we'd be blocked in doing so due to the
nature of the fairly simple @prefix syntax.

For example, if we wanted to define terms in the future that generated 4
triples every time a term was found, we couldn't do so via the @prefix
mechanism. That is, if we wanted to generate dc:title, foo:title,
bar:title and zurg:title when the term "title" was used like so:

<span property="title">Zorgon The Emphatic</span>

we'd have to invent a new backwards-compatible syntax for @prefix as
used in RDFa Profile documents.

Alternatively, the RDFa Profiles mechanism that used RDFa markup to
express the profile terms and prefixes would just add another triple
that states the other triples that must be generated when "title" is
found in the markup. In other words, we're also using RDF to express the
RDFa Profile documents because it is extensible.


That is not to say that I don't agree with your notion that we're mixing
the layers a bit here, but at the end of the day, authors rarely care
about that. Language designers care about that kind of thing and I can't
think of how it may bite us later down the line at the moment. What
usability issues do you see with this approach? What technical issues do
you see with this approach? I think I understand the design issues
you're raising, but even I have to admit that they are a bit purist.

What is the worst-case here? If an SVG+RDFa processor must implement an
XML-compatible+RDFa processor (which it has to do anyway) to read RDFa
Profiles, what is the down-side to that? We have between 18-22 RDFa
processors at present, do we think that we'll only have a handful of
RDFa 1.1 processors due to this design decision?

To put it another way, your reaction to this seems to be fairly strong,
Mark. Perhaps all of us that don't see it as a big issue are missing
something, but I can't understand what that something must be.

I think the best way forward at this point is for you to submit a solid
alternative proposal. You've mentioned several ways forward, could you
pick the winner as far as you see it and we can discuss that in order to
make the conversation a bit more concrete?

-- manu

Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny)
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Saving Journalism - The PaySwarm Developer API

Received on Saturday, 2 October 2010 21:54:28 UTC