- From: Peter Patel-Schneider <pfpschneider@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 09:32:28 -0700
- To: RDF WG <public-rdf-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAMpDgVxOxpfEQfTNRC3yUuhhpH+1U++YgYpzkC_KSu8EaD_jKg@mail.gmail.com>
Minutes may be delayed - Internal Server Error at
https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-08-21
Just in case something really bad has happened, here is my grab of the raw
IRC log.
peter
#rdf-wg
=== public.cloak is your displayed hostname now
=-= User mode for pfps is now +i
-->| YOU (pfps) have joined #rdf-wg
-->| AndyS (~afs@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
-->| gkellogg (~gregg@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
-->| AZ (~AZ@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
davidwood Zakim, this will be RDF
-->| Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
-->| RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-rdf-wg-irc
davidwood Zakim, this will be RDF
Zakim ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
davidwood Chair: David Wood
Zakim + +1.408.992.aaaa
Zakim - +1.408.992.aaaa
Zakim + +1.408.992.aaaa
davidwood Agenda:
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.08.21#Admin
pfps zakim, aaaa is me
Zakim +pfps; got it
Zakim + +081165aabb
davidwood Zakim, who is here
Zakim davidwood, you need to end that query with '?'
Zakim +OpenLink_Software
davidwood Zakim, who is here?
Zakim On the phone I see bhyland1, pfps, +081165aabb,
OpenLink_Software
Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, gkellogg, AndyS, pfps,
TallTed, ivan, manu, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, ericP
Zakim - +081165aabb
TallTed Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Zakim +TallTed; got it
TallTed Zakim, mute me
ivan zakim, dial ivan-voip
Zakim TallTed should now be muted
davidwood Zakim, bhyland is me
Zakim ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim +davidwood; got it
Zakim +Ivan
pfps zakim, you need to get a life?
Zakim I don't understand your question, pfps.
Zakim +Sandro
ivan zakim, mute me
Zakim Ivan should now be muted
Zakim +[IPcaller]
AndyS zakim, ipcaller is me
Zakim +AndyS; got it
Zakim +??P13
Zakim +??P14
sandro zakim, drop P13
Zakim sorry, sandro, I do not see a party named 'P13'
sandro zakim, drop ??P13
Zakim ??P13 is being disconnected
=-= TallTed has changed the topic to “RDF WG --
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- Agenda:
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.08.21”
Zakim -??P13
yvesr Zakim, ??P14 is me
Zakim +yvesr; got it
pfps the nuclear option is always the right thing to do
AndyS in a less than ideal telecon place - I am muted and can unmute
for specific items.
Zakim + +081165aacc
AZ Zakim, aacc is me
Zakim +AZ; got it
Zakim + +1.415.686.aadd
gkellogg zakim, aadd is me
Zakim +gkellogg; got it
davidwood Zakim, who is here?
Zakim On the phone I see davidwood, pfps, TallTed (muted), Ivan
(muted), Sandro, AndyS, yvesr, AZ, gkellogg
Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, gkellogg, AndyS, pfps,
TallTed, ivan, manu, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, yvesr, sandro, ericP
AndyS there are 3 sets of building works in the road and all are
using power tools
TallTed Zakim, unmute me
Zakim TallTed should no longer be muted
TallTed Zakim, mute me
Zakim TallTed should now be muted
yvesr fighting a massive headache
pfps i can scribe (in honour of getting IRC access back)
AndyS yep - a bit risky.
yvesr sorry!
pfps scribenick: pfps
pfps that didn't work
Zakim +gavinc
gavinc waves
-->| markus (~chatzilla@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
=-= markus is now known as lanthaler
Zakim +Souri
davidwood PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 07 August telecon:
https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-08-07
-->| Souri (~Souri@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
pfps agendum: admin
AndyS notes he scribed that one
pfps david: accept minutes from last time
davidwood RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 07 August telecon:
https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-08-07
pfps david: no objections -> minutes acceptes
davidwood Review of action items
davidwood http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
davidwood http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
AndyS ACTION-282 is done
gavinc I claim that EricP did ACTION-280
yvesr did a bit of work on ACTION-196 but still work in progress
lanthaler my machine just crashed.. will join in a couple of minutes
pfps david: second editor for trig
pfps andy: I will if it helps
davidwood CLOSE ACTION-282
trackbot is closing ACTION-282.
trackbot Closed ACTION-282.
davidwood CLOSE ACTION-280
trackbot is closing ACTION-280.
trackbot Closed ACTION-280.
pfps greg: so far 9 conforming Turtle implementation
AndyS Excellent news on the implementation reports.
pfps david: primer still in progress
gkellogg s/greg/gkellogg/
pfps greg should work, no?
gkellogg don't thing so; perhaps gregg
pfps hmmm, zakim is too dumb for its own good
gkellogg can always clean up later
pfps david: next meeting *next* week
yvesr
AndyS Happy Birthday, David for next week. Install the large number
package.
pfps david: I won't be available next week
pfps sandro: I can chair if needed
davidwood Request for Review: ITS 2.0
davidwood
davidwood See:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0000.html
davidwood
pfps agendum: request for review of ITS 2.0
ivan q+
Zakim sees ivan on the speaker queue
pfps that's not the right incantation - what is the right one?
pfps david: they want some some review from us re converting markup
into RDF
AndyS peter --- topic:
pfps thanks
pfps topic: request for review
gavinc Section in question,
http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#conversion-to-nif
pfps david: I'm not sure what we would say except "hurray" and check
to see if they have done anything bad
ivan I am happy to say hurray
pfps after for before reading?
ivan ack ivan
Zakim unmutes Ivan
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps ivan: I can take a look at the document
pfps add an action item??
pfps action: ivan review ITS 2.0 document
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
RRSAgent records action 1
trackbot 'ivan' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different
identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., ivan, imikhail).
davidwood Topic: JSON-LD
ivan zakim, mute me
Zakim Ivan should now be muted
davidwood PROPOSED to publish JSON-LD as CR:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0060.html
Zakim +EricP
pfps sandro: we need to agree on exit criteria
AndyS q+ to ask about testing (minor, clarification)
Zakim sees AndyS on the speaker queue
gkellogg q+
Zakim sees AndyS, gkellogg on the speaker queue
davidwood ack AndyS
pfps sandro: the standard criteria should be acceptable, but there
should be a resolution
Zakim AndyS, you wanted to ask about testing (minor, clarification)
Zakim sees gkellogg on the speaker queue
Zakim +??P20
lanthaler zakim, ??P20 is me
Zakim +lanthaler; got it
=-= lanthaler is now known as markus
markus zakim, ??P20 is me
Zakim I already had ??P20 as lanthaler, markus
pfps andy: for the RDF tests, isomorphism appears to be the right
standard
davidwood ack gkellogg
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: this was discussed yesterday
pfps gregg: for testing to-RDF isomorphism is OK, but the output is
n-quads
gkellogg http://json-ld.org/test-suite/reports/
pfps andy: so n-quads isomorphism is what to use
ivan q+
Zakim sees ivan on the speaker queue
yvesr hmm dataset isomorphism - that rings a bell
pfps gregg: here is an EARLy report
ivan q-
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: pretty broad conformance over six implementations
gavinc +q to ask if 3 of those aren't translations of the same
implementation?
Zakim sees gavinc on the speaker queue
davidwood ack gavinc
Zakim gavinc, you wanted to ask if 3 of those aren't translations of
the same implementation?
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: this indicates that CR exit critera have already been
met, but there are other groups that may be waiting for CR to actually to
the testing
pfps gavin: are three of the implementations machine translations?
markus I think on yesterday's call we agreed on a minimum CR
duration of 2 weeks
pfps gregg: no, they are separate, but the Java one is the primary
gavinc s/Java/Javascript
AndyS s/java/javascript/
AndyS
pfps david: sandro can you craft a proposal for exit criteria?
davidwood q?
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: the tests are all via the API
Zakim -EricP
pfps sandro: are any of the proposed tests contential
pfps gregg: to RDF-100 had some discussion yesterday because it was
generating relative-IRIs
gavinc +q to ask about dataset tests
Zakim sees gavinc on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: we dropped it so that the results are all legal
generalized RDF
davidwood ack gavinc
Zakim gavinc, you wanted to ask about dataset tests
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gavin: are there tests around datasets that contain more than
one graph? the bugs I've in seen in are in this area
Zakim +EricP
pfps gregg: I don't know - we will be discussing this next week on
the JSON-LD call
-->| AZ_ (~AZ@public.cloak) has joined #rdf-wg
AndyS Don't need test suite to go to CR.
pfps gavin: how can we approve exit criteria without a full set of
tests?
sandro PROPOSED: The Exit Critera for JSON-LD shall be that at least
two implementations pass each approved test in the test suite. We approve
the tests as they stands today, but intend to add more. We may also make
corrections if bugs are found. The test are all on JSON-LD-API but we
consider them to cover both JSON-LD documents.
sandro gregg: we need more tests. we only have only one test on
error condititions.
gavinc We DO need more tests. There are no tests for datasets, only
single named graphs
markus q+
Zakim sees markus on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: more tests are needed, e.g., test variations on native
types, dataset tests
pfps gregg: should we approve the current tests?
pfps sandro: let's approve now and add later
pfps sandro: there are about two weeks before CR can be announced,
so the tests should be finalized by then
ericP of course you never know when a test suite is *really* done
pfps david: do we need one resolution or two?
davidwood ack markus
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps sandro: either
markus The exit criteria I put in the spec is: "Before this
specification exits Candidate Recommendation, two or more independent
implementations must pass each test, although no single implementation must
pass each test. The working group will decide when the test suite is of
sufficient quality to test interoperability and will produce an
implementation report (hosted together with the test suite)."
pfps markus: are we trying to define the exit criteria
pfps sandro: yes
pfps sandro: the exit criteria usually go in the transition request,
not the document
Zakim -EricP
pfps david: let's resolve on the wording from the document
sandro PROPOSED: (as in spec draft) Before this specification exits
Candidate Recommendation, two or more independent implementations must pass
each test, although no single implementation must pass each test. The
working group will decide when the test suite is of sufficient quality to
test interoperability and will produce an implementation report (hosted
together with the test suite).
sandro +1
markus +1
davidwood +1
gkellogg +1
pfps +1
yvesr +1
TallTed +1
AndyS +1
ivan +1
AZ_ +1
|<-- AZ has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
pfps heavy typing
gavinc +1
Souri +1
pfps zakim, who is talking?
sandro RESOLVED: (as in spec draft) Before this specification exits
Candidate Recommendation, two or more independent implementations must pass
each test, although no single implementation must pass each test. The
working group will decide when the test suite is of sufficient quality to
test interoperability and will produce an implementation report (hosted
together with the test suite).
Zakim pfps, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the
following: davidwood (53%), AndyS (19%), Sandro (15%)
AndyS muted
gkellogg JSON-LD 1.0 Processing Algorithms and API
davidwood PROPOSED: Publish both JSON-LD 1.0 and JSON-LD 1.0
Processing Algorithms and API as CR.
ivan +1
gkellogg +1
markus +1
sandro +1
gavinc +1
ivan yay
AndyS +1
davidwood +1
pfps sandro: there should be some comment that the JSON-LD tests
cover both documents
TallTed +1
Souri +1
AZ_ +1
yvesr +1
sandro PROPOSED: The test are all on JSON-LD-API but we consider
them to cover both JSON-LD documents.
davidwood RESOLVED: Publish both JSON-LD 1.0 and JSON-LD 1.0
Processing Algorithms and API as CR.
davidwood PROPOSED: The test are all on JSON-LD-API but we consider
them to cover both JSON-LD documents.
sandro gregg: Implementing all the processing algorithms effectively
tests all the normative requirements of the JSON-LD documents.
sandro +1
sandro PROPOSED: The test are all on JSON-LD Processing Algorithms,
but we consider them to cover both JSON-LD documents in their entirety.
pfps +1
sandro +1
gkellogg +1
davidwood +1
markus +1
gavinc +1
pfps sandro: are there actual API tests?
pfps gregg: yes
sandro gregg: We should be careful that the API tests are in the
report, since they aren't in the EARL.
sandro gregg: That part is intended for JS impls, but my (Ruby) one
doesn't do the API with Promises.
ivan +1
Souri +1
pfps david: I don't see any issues here
davidwood RESOLVED: The test are all on JSON-LD Processing
Algorithms, but we consider them to cover both JSON-LD documents in their
entirety.
TallTed +1
gkellogg Need to make sure IDL tests are included with the test
manifests and in the EARL report
yvesr abstains from that one - not sure how much of the algorithms
document is covered indirectly by these tests
pfps markus: how long for CR?
ivan david, I am needed on another phone for some membership issue;
may I leave?
pfps sandro: let's just ask for a short time and end whenever
davidwood ivan, sure
pfps markus: we were thinking of two weeks and extend if necessary
ivan sorry about that
Zakim -Ivan
pfps sandro: two weeks seems a little short - three weeks might be
more normal
pfps sandro: two weeks might raise some flage
pfps markus: ok
pfps andy: groups that are waiting for start of CR might want longer
davidwood From
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#transition-reqs : "The
Working Group is not required to show that a technical report has two
independent and interoperable implementations as part of a request to the
Director to announce a Call for Implementations. However, the Working Group
should include a report of present and expected implementations as part of
the request."
pfps markus: we might send out an informal communication to get
these people to start
gavinc "must specify the deadline for comments, which must be at
least four weeks after publication, and should be longer for complex
documents."
pfps david: minimal duration of implementation period is required
pfps sandro: should be at least three weeks
davidwood "The announcement must indicate a minimal duration, before
which the Working Group must not request ahttp://
www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfr; this minimal duration is
designed to allow time for comment."
davidwood There is no definition of minimal.
gavinc yep, and the newest draft process document
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/AB/raw-file/default/tr.html does define, and that's
4 weeks
markus gavinc, that's not CR
pfps david: let's try for three
gavinc markus nope, since CR is gone
pfps sandro: resolving on three weeks would be helful
pfps s/hellful/helpful/
markus gavinc, oh sorry, didn't realize you pasted a different link
davidwood PROPOSED: The WG will request a duration of three (3)
weeks for the JSON-LD implemention period.
gkellogg +1
davidwood +1
yvesr +1
gavinc +1
pfps +1 (are you sure that you needed the (3)?)
markus +1
TallTed +1
sandro +1
davidwood RESOLVED: The WG will request a duration of three (3)
weeks for the JSON-LD implementation period.
pfps sandro: we may be able to publish the documents on the day that
the CR request is approved
pfps !
Souri +1
davidwood Topic: TriG / N-Triples / N-Quads
pfps topic: lions and tigers and bears
pfps david: progress in TriG document
pfps david: please accept Andy's help
ivan zakim, dial ivan-voip
Zakim ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim +Ivan
pfps david: Andy will join Gavin as the second editor of the TriG
document
AndyS No problem .. yet. I *love* hg
AndyS not
davidwood
pfps gavin: the end result for TriG is that two things need to be
added - optional "graph" and {}
gkellogg q+
Zakim sees gkellogg on the speaker queue
pfps gavin: there were a number of other grammars for other things
ivan zakim, mute me
Zakim Ivan should now be muted
davidwood ack gkellogg
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gregg: allowing a blank node as a graph name was an issue -
what syntax is allowed - easiest is blank node label
pfps andy: either labelled or []
pfps gavin: a bit strange
pfps andy: yes, a corner case, but graphs can be discovered
pfps andy: graph name syntax has to be just for a blank node -
nothing else
pfps gavin: I'll put together the result into the document
davidwood The editors will record this corner case in the document.
sandro editors will include [ ] for blank node graph labels
pfps gavin: that covers everything I can think of
Zakim +EricP
pfps david: N-TRIPLES
davidwood PROPOSED to publish N-Triples as LCWD
davidwood q?
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps gavin: comment from Andy re whitespace as a token, the
situation has gone back and forth
AndyS <s><p><o>. is legal TTL but not NT. Some may find it odd.
pfps andy: want the two to be the same
AndyS <s> <p> <o> . needed in NT.
pfps gavin: can't allow NL in the middle of triples
pfps david: date in document is next week
pfps gavin: that can be changed easily
ivan +1
gkellogg +1
davidwood +1
TallTed +1
gavinc +1
AndyS go for it
AndyS +1
Souri +1
markus +1
pfps the numerology of "go for it" is obviously +1
yvesr +1
sandro +1
AZ_ +1
davidwood RESOLVED to publish N-Triples as LCWD.
Souri sorry, I have another meeting to go at 12noon
|<-- Souri has left irc.w3.org:6665 ("")
pfps david: try for LC of N-Triples next week
pfps topic: semantics and concepts
pfps s/Triples/Quads/
davidwood ISSUE-140?
trackbot is looking up ISSUE-140.
trackbot ISSUE-140 -- RDF Dataset Comparison (Ivan Herman) -- open
trackbot http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/140
pfps andy: also need to consider blank nodes shared between the
graphs - need to move the isomorphism to the outside
ivan q+
Zakim sees ivan on the speaker queue
pfps andy: graph isomorphism is OK, just need to fix this one
ivan ->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0022.html Pat's
definition
pfps andy: this message has the right change
AZ_ +1 to Pat's definition
Zakim -Souri
pfps david: let's accept Pat's definition
ivan q-
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
Zakim -EricP
pfps pfps: looks good to me
ivan zakim unmute me
ivan zakim, unmute me
Zakim Ivan should no longer be muted
davidwood PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-140 by accepting Pat's suggested
change documented in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0022.html
pfps +1
AZ_ +1
gavinc +1
AndyS +1
pfps who will make the change?
davidwood +1
ivan +1
gkellogg +1
TallTed +1
yvesr +1
markus +1
davidwood RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-140 by accepting Pat's suggested
change documented in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Aug/0022.html
gavinc Grad students!
davidwood ACTION: davidwood to apply the resolution to ISSUE-140 in
Concepts
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
RRSAgent records action 2
trackbot Created ACTION-283 - Apply the resolution to issue-140 in
concepts [on David Wood - due 2013-08-28].
ivan zakim, mute me
Zakim Ivan should now be muted
pfps david: comments from Jeremy ...
davidwood Comments Jeremy Carroll
davidwood rdfs:Graph ? comment and Issue 35:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jul/0021.html
davidwood owl:imports, graph names and Issue 38:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Jul/0022.html
davidwood Turn into issues
davidwood ISSUE-35?
trackbot is looking up ISSUE-35.
trackbot ISSUE-35 -- Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or
something like that? -- closed
trackbot http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/35
pfps andy: I think that the modeling in his example is somewhat
dubious
pfps david: is there a resolution on ISSUE-35?
pfps pfps: I'm unsure just what Jeremy wants
pfps david: there is nothing prohibiting making graph names denote
graphs
ivan q+
Zakim sees ivan on the speaker queue
pfps pfps: Jeremy wants there to be a way to require graph names
denoting graphs
pfps david: that proposal has been before the working group and has
not been approved
davidwood ack ivan
Zakim unmutes Ivan
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps ivan: there was a plan to have something like this
AndyS People write documents, not graphs.
pfps ivan: ... in a note
pfps sandro: correct, but I was hoping ...
pfps david: we need to reply to Jeremy and at least say that a
similar proposal was rejected and that nothing prohibits this
AZ_ and there's a plan to make a note on dataset-semantics, which I
have to finish (ED at
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-dataset/index.html#)
pfps sandro: and could ask what the minimum is here
pfps david: and there is a note possibly in progress
markus +q
Zakim sees markus on the speaker queue
davidwood ack markus
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps sandro: jeremy knows this already
pfps markus: are we planning to added rdf:bounddataset to note
pfps sandro: that would be in there
pfps david: a non-arbitrary deadline for the WG would be mid-Nov
AZ_ q+
Zakim sees AZ_ on the speaker queue
pfps sandro: Jeremy might object to proceeeding unless the note
exists
pfps david: sandro please respond with history and say that a note
on the issue will appear later and whether he is OK with that
pfps Topic: AOB
AZ_ q-
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
pfps Adjourn
Zakim -Ivan
pfps AZ: the note on dataset semantics is in progress since January
and should be ready by September
pfps david: please try to finish soon - discussion may take some time
|<-- ivan has left irc.w3.org:6665 ("bye guys")
AndyS GTG
gavinc bye!
Zakim -gavinc
gkellogg bye!
pfps AZ: would be nice if peter or pat could take a look at it
Zakim -Sandro
yvesr bye
Zakim -davidwood
AndyS ADJOURNED
Zakim -AZ
Zakim -TallTed
Zakim -gkellogg
Zakim -lanthaler
pfps what's the magic link to start editing the minutes?
Zakim -AndyS
markus bye
|<-- AZ_ has left irc.w3.org:6665 ("Page closed")
|<-- AndyS has left irc.w3.org:6665 ("Leaving.")
pfps found it, I think
|<-- markus has left irc.w3.org:6665 ("ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox
22.0/20130620121849]")
davidwood pfps, please see the directions at the top of
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
pfps that's obsolete, I think I found the right place, but I'm now
getting "Internal Server Error"
Received on Wednesday, 21 August 2013 16:32:57 UTC