- From: Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:07:08 -0400
- To: Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org>
- Cc: Gavin Carothers <gavin@carothers.name>, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, public-rdf-wg@w3.org
On Sun, 2012-05-06 at 23:28 -0400, Eric Prud'hommeaux wrote: > * Gavin Carothers <gavin@carothers.name> [2012-05-05 21:08-0700] > > On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 2012-05-05 at 19:50 -0700, Gavin Carothers wrote: > > >> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> wrote: > > >> > On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 11:22 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> """ > > >> >> TURTLE Lite would effectively be a subset of TURTLE - N-Quads, or > > >> >> something that would be N-Quads-like (allowing for either "s p o" or > > >> >> "s > > >> >> p o c" statements). > > >> >> """ > > >> >> > > >> >> Gavin has asserted that TURTLE already supports N-Triples... now all > > >> >> we > > >> >> need to do is to make N-Quads a subset of TURTLE and we're good for > > >> >> TURTLE Lite. > > >> > > > >> > Since a subset can't include things not in its superset, I guess you're > > >> > saying that Turtle should include the dataset/quad stuff? Do you have a > > >> > proposed syntax for that? I don't think adding the label after the > > >> > triple, as in N-Quads, works well in Turtle... > > >> > > > >> > s p o1 g, o2 g; p2 o3 g. > > >> > > > >> > Nah. Maybe just like trig, where you have a triple you could have > > >> > label + { graph }. Or maybe a GRAPH keyword like in SPARQL. I kind of > > >> > like that. > > >> > > >> Yes, had proposed adding @graph to Turtle. There wasn't support for > > >> doing so. Too much of a change to the language. > > > > > > It might be more accurate to say there was more opposition than support > > > at the time. There was some support. Manu might be offering more -- > > > and, more to the point, he's making a new argument that might > > > potentially be supported by data. (He's arguing for simplicity to > > > appeal to potential adopters. RDF experts are in some cases the worst > > > people to assess that kind of argument.) > > > > See http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle > > Email thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Sep/0170.html > > Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-28 > > > > This was close to my initial argument as well 7 months ago. Publishing > > Turtle as a preferred way to publish RDF at the same as publishing a > > new recommendation about named graphs and not being able to use named > > graphs in Turtle seems poor. Also existing implementations today > > already use special comments in Turtle documents to support something > > very like named graphs. 8 months ago figured I'd wait to worry about > > this more till we settled on named graph support in the next 3 months > > ... yeah ... The nearness of a Turtle LC and the ongoing > > confusion/conversation/whatever on named graphs is reducing my own > > support for trying to support "named graphs" in Turtle. This likely > > means that if whatever we come up with for named graphs sees wide > > adoption more people will move towards TriG (or whatever Turtle like > > multi graph format) as the default format rather than > > Turtle/N-Triples. Lee Feigenbaum already comments to that effect in > > the thread. If your using multi graphs today, you can't really use > > Turtle. > > I'm all down with a combined language/spec. I wasn't keen on graph > markers without {}s to help me see the scope, but I'm not sure where > consensus lies on that coin flip. I think compatibility with SPARQL argues strongly in favor of the braces for named graphs. But, yeah, it's a coin flip. -- Sandro > > > > Other than backward compatibility -- which we're breaking on other > > > places already, can you think of any reason we're using @prefix instead > > > of SPARQL's PREFIX? > > > > At this time we have non compliant PARSERS. All existing Turtle > > documents should still be valid Turtle documents (with possible very > > odd edge cases), if this is not the case then I would consider it a > > bug in the new specification. Saying that old parsers are not > > compliant is very different than saying that old documents are not > > Turtle any more. > > > > > > > > -- Sandro > > > > > >> > > > >> > Steve has argued very strongly, and Andy just mentioned again, that > > >> > people want to know from the mime type whether they'll be getting > > >> > triples or quads. Steve sees it as a big security issue -- you don't > > >> > want to load quads in from the Web and have them over-write your > > >> > crawler's internal state metadata or data that was supposedly fetched > > >> > from other address. I'm not convinced, myself, not at all, because I > > >> > think one needs to have an "untrusted" mode of loading quads that > > >> > renames all the graphs. > > >> > > > >> > -- Sandro > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >
Received on Monday, 7 May 2012 11:07:23 UTC