Re: summarizing proposed changes to charter

Hi Arnaud,

sorry but there is one fundamental issue here. Chapter 3 clearly states 
that Extensibility is a design goal, but none of the deliverables 
mentions this. On the recommendation track there is only a vocabulary 
for "these shapes" and those Shapes are basically the other items from 
the Scope section, aka the "hard-coded" Resource Shapes such as ranges 
and cardinalities. Then there is a Not Recommendation Track item for 
"Relationship to SPARQL" which is not talking about extensibility either.

So where is extensibility covered? If it is not covered, how sure can we 
be that the WG will implement the Scope? What happens if people who 
happen to sit in the WG decide that extensibility is just a nice-to-have 
(even though it has been clearly identified as a requirement in the 
discussions so far)?

Thanks,
Holger




On 8/13/2014 13:10, Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
> Hi Holger,
>
> It may seem unfair indeed that your proposal wasn't directly addressed 
> in Eric's email. However, I hope you will recognize that there is a 
> clear overlap between the different proposals and there is only so 
> much we can do to accommodate the different suggestions.
>
> Under pressure from about everybody the charter has been significantly 
> watered down and made completely technology neutral. As a result the 
> WG has now a lot of room to decide exactly what spec to produce and 
> based on what technology.
>
> As noted before this is both a gift and a curse because it means we 
> will have a lot of work to do to define a clear direction but, at this 
> point, as others have pointed out, I think the most productive thing 
> to do is to launch the WG.
>
> I do think your interpretation of what charters imply is a bit on the 
> conservative side. My experience is that when WGs agree they have a 
> lot of leeway with regard to their charter. So, I wouldn't fret too 
> much about the details of the charter.
>
> Regards.
> --
> Arnaud  Le Hors - Senior Technical Staff Member, Open Web Standards - 
> IBM Software Group
>
>
>
>
> From: Holger Knublauch <holger@topquadrant.com>
> To: public-rdf-shapes@w3.org
> Date: 08/12/2014 06:33 PM
> Subject: Re: summarizing proposed changes to charter
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> this is a good initiative. I do wonder though why my own proposal which
> is best summarized at
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-shapes/2014Aug/0088.html
>
> is not being discussed? If you are suggesting to follow the splitting of
> the deliverable suggested by Peter, then why not also discuss the
> splitting that I proposed?
>
> Alternatively, let's assume that the WG will redefine the deliverables
> anyway once it has agreed on which base technology to start with. In
> that case, we only need a single vague deliverable outline for now. But
> even then the current prose
>
> "An RDF vocabulary, such as Resource Shapes 2.0, for expressing these
> shapes in RDF triples, so they can be stored, queried, analyzed, and
> manipulated with normal RDF tools."
>
> does not work because it only highlights Resource Shapes 2.0 and also
> does not say anything about the extension mechanism and fallback to
> something like SPARQL that was identified in section 3. These are not
> "shapes" but meta-shapes and my suggestion was to clarify this into two
> deliverables. Only defining hard-coded Shapes is not an acceptable
> outcome of this WG. It would work for me if the above sentence is
> extended to explicitly mention this extension mechanism, so my
> compromise proposal is:
>
>     An RDF vocabulary for expressing structural constraints (aka
> Shapes) together with
>     a definition of their formal semantics that explains how shapes are
> evaluated against
>     RDF graphs. Also an extension mechanism that enables the definition
> of new Shapes
>     and to fall back to a richer language to express more complex
> constraints.
>
> The part "for expressing these shapes in RDF triples etc" from the
> original proposal can be deleted because it is a consequence of being
> based on RDF.
>
> I also want to note that the deliverable "Relationship to SPARQL" should
> have a similar sentence like the OWL deliverable underneath it, to make
> it unnecessary if SPARQL is already used for the first deliverable.
>
> On 8/13/2014 10:55, Eric Prud'hommeaux wrote:
> > separate semantics:
> >
> >    "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfpschneider@gmail.com> - Message-ID: 
> <53E2AFBD.9050102@gmail.com>
> >      A syntax and semantics for shapes specifying how to construct 
> shape expressions and how shape expressions are evaluated against RDF 
> graphs.
> >    "Dam, Jesse van" <jesse.vandam@wur.nl> - Message-ID: 
> <63CF398D7F09744BA51193F17F5252AB1FD60B24@SCOMP0936.wurnet.nl>
> >      defining the the (direct) semantics meaning of shapes and 
> defining the associated validation process.
> >
> >    opposition: Holger Knublauch
> >
> >    proposed resolution: include, noting that if SPARQL is judged to 
> be useful for the semantics, there's nothing preventing us from using it.
>
> I am not happy with that, and I believe my proposal above covers it more
> pragmatically. I am very much against making this more complicating than
> it needs to be by introducing extra layers of "formal" specifications.
> Just use SPARQL and it becomes both formally specified and immediately
> executable.
>
> The other topics below are fine for me.
>
> Holger
>
>
> >
> >
> > make graph normalization optional or use-case specific:
> >
> >    "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfpschneider@gmail.com> - Message-ID: 
> <53E2AFBD.9050102@gmail.com>
> >      3 OPTIONAL A specification of how shape verification interacts 
> with inference.
> >    Jeremy J Carroll <jjc@syapse.com> - Message-Id: 
> <D954B744-05CD-4E5C-8FC2-C08A9A99BA9F@syapse.com>
> >      the WG will consider whether it is necessary, practical or 
> desireable to normalize a graph...
> >      A graph normalization method, suitable for  the use cases 
> determined by the group....
> >    David Booth <david@dbooth.org> - Message-ID: 
> <53E28D07.9000804@dbooth.org>
> >      OPTIONAL - A Recommendation for normalization/canonicalization 
> of RDF graphs and RDF datasets that are serialized in N-Triples and 
> N-Quads. opposition - don't do it at all:
> >    "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfpschneider@gmail.com> - Message-ID: 
> <53E3A4CB.4040200@gmail.com>
> >      the WG should not be working on this.
> >
> >    proposed resolution: withdrawn, to go to new light-weight, 
> focused WG, removing this text:
> >    [[
> >    The WG MAY produce a Recommendation for graph normalization.
> >    ]]
> >
> >
> > mandatory human-facing language:
> >
> >    "Dam, Jesse van" <jesse.vandam@wur.nl> - Message-ID: 
> <63CF398D7F09744BA51193F17F5252AB1FD60B24@SCOMP0936.wurnet.nl>
> >      ShExC mandatory, but potentially as a Note.
> >    David Booth <david@dbooth.org> - Message-ID: 
> <53E28D07.9000804@dbooth.org>
> >      In Section 4 (Deliverables), change "OPTIONAL - Compact, 
> human-readable syntax" to "Compact, human-readable syntax", i.e., make 
> it required.
> >    Jeremy J Carroll <jjc@syapse.com> - Message-Id: 
> <54AA894F-F4B4-4877-8806-EB85FB5A42E5@syapse.com>
> >
> >    opposition - make it OPTIONAL
> >    "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfpschneider@gmail.com> - Message-ID: 
> <53E2AFBD.9050102@gmail.com>
> >      OPTIONAL A compact, human-readable syntax for expressing shapes.
> >
> >    proposed resolution: keep as OPTIONAL, not mentioning ShExC, but 
> clarifying that it's different from the RDF syntax.
> >
> >
> > report formats:
> >    Dimitris Kontokostas <kontokostas@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
> >      provide flexible validation execution plans that range from:
> >        Success / fail
> >        Success / fail per constraint
> >        Fails with error counts
> >        Individual resources that fail per constraint
> >        And enriched failed resources with annotations
> >
> >    proposed resolution: no change, noting that no one seconded this 
> proposal.
> >
> >
> > test suite/validator:
> >
> >    Dimitris Kontokostas <kontokostas@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
> >      Validation results are very important for the progress of this 
> WG and should be a standalone deliverable.
> >    David Booth <david@dbooth.org> - Message-ID: 
> <53E28D07.9000804@dbooth.org>
> >      Test Suite, to help ensure interoperability and correct 
> implementation. The group will chose the location of this deliverable, 
> such as a git repository.
> >
> >    proposed resolution: leave from charter as WGs usually choose to 
> do this anyways and it has no impact on IP commitments.
> >
>
>
>