- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:21:44 -0500
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
- Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org
The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon is available as
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-minutes.html
A text snapshot follows.
----
RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
19 Feb 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0178.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2009-01-22
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Tom
Baker, Mark Birbeck
Regrets
Steven
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Contents
* Topics
1. Action Review
2. @prefix, specifically @prefix on HEAD
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
<TomB> just listening (muted)
<Ralph> [9]previous non-meeting
[9] http://www.w3.org/2009/02/05-rdfa-minutes.html
<Ralph> [10]previous 2009-01-22
[10] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html
Action Review
ACTION: [DONE] Manu to create design tests for @prefix and @profile.
[recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
[11] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16
Manu: see [12]my mail
... I showed a first pass of three styles of markup
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0180.html
ACTION: [DROPPED] Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
Ben: I did a reorganization of the wiki then Manu added way more
than this action required
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
in [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
namespace [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
Ralph: drop this?
Ben: I'd like to ping Jeremy; I'd like to see this
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does
not set object based on TC 123. [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to look at
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
ec/0037.html [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
[19] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
Manu: I sent an email, no response yet
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa
Wiki [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[26] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
@prefix, specifically @prefix on HEAD
Ben: I'd like to talk about this in concert with the test cases
[[
I see from the discussion on January 22 that there was talk of
allowing
@prefix on HEAD to apply to the BODY, but I think we had clearly
said in
prior discussions that this shouldn't happen, because of the
SAX-based
processing of documents. We need to clarify this.
]]
-- Ben, in [27]email
[27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0178.html
Ben: am I correct in my interpretation of that 22-Jan discussion?
... @prefix on HEAD would apply to BODY also?
Manu: yes, that was the discussion
... we didn't get too deeply into this
... Mark did propose this would be nice
<msporny> [28]rdfa-test-harness/
[28] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
Manu: there are 3 variations on @prefix syntax
... select 'Design Test Suite' and 'Unreviewed'
<ShaneM> "We will serve no predicate before its time"
-- test 9001: Establishing @prefix on HTML element
Manu: the purpose of these tests is just to provide a starting point
for the design discussion
<msporny> [29]http://rdfa.info/wiki/design-suite
[29] http://rdfa.info/wiki/design-suite
-> [30]explanation of purpose of test 9001
[30] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Design-suite#9001
Manu: 9002 shows a CSS-like syntax, 9003 shows an '=' syntax
... I prefer the '=' syntax, as does Toby Inkster
Ben: three decisions; what to call this @ttribute, what's the value
syntax, what's the parsing model
Mark: sounds right. the name is the least important
Ben: the 3 test assume @prefix for the name and the same parsing
model as @xmlns
... they're testing for the value syntax options
Manu: correct
Ben: note that none of this discussion is really in scope for this
Task Force
... we're producing some notes on how to proceed
... should we make a decision, or should we just note these options
and leave it to whatever group is chartered to decide?
... people who do implement these sorts of things tend to implement
quickly
... Manu's already done something, as has Ivan
... if we agree amongst ourselves this is a big step
... could be a Note for a year or so
... this would at least put it 'there'
... already some useful discussions around named graphs
... it would be good to converge on a way of approaching these even
if we don't have a place to put the formal state of this convergence
<msporny> +1 for going as far as we can with the syntax for @prefix
Ben: so we might proceed on the understanding that whatever we
'decide' can be overturned later
Shane: we're likely to be participants in whatever discussion is
chartered
... the XHTML2 WG can proceed now if it chooses
... addition of @profile to the XHTML module would be covered by our
current WG charter
Ralph: the SVG folk are pushing on @xmlns support in HTML as well
... SVG Tiny has fully incorporated RDFa
... and SVG itself uses @xmlns
<msporny> When Doug and I were talking at WDN09 - I found a wierd
issue with him using xlink:href to specify hrefs in his SVG - it
would break a RDFa parser as he marked it up.
Ralph: so are we diluting our message if we add a syntactic
alternative?
Mark: it doesn't hurt to have both @xmlns and @prefix in the same
document
... we consciously left open this scope in the CURIE spec
... the wording says that XML documents should support @xmlns
... but leaves open the possibility of alternatives
Shane: CURIE is Candidate Rec
... it is correct that alternative mechanisms are permitted by the
CURIE spec
... the CURIE spec itself does not define any attributes
... the XHTML2 spec defines the mapping mechanism
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss xmlns: and XML parsing rules
Shane: there's been a good argument in the recent days about why
@xmlns: is not isomorphic w.r.t. processing model between HTML5 and
XML
... if we say that the attribute name "xmlns:foo" should be treated
as a token,
... the truth is that in the XML DOM a real parser should not be
passing this token through
... the actual name of the attribute is 'foo' in the XML namespace,
not a string 'xmlns:foo'
... @xml... is a reserved namespace
Mark: doesn't the API allow the application to retrieve the full
name of the attribute?
Manu: I thought Henri was specifically referring to XOM
... the level 1 API would be fine but the level 2 API would filter
xmlns:foo to something else
Mark: but the argument was that an HTML5 processor _would_ give
access to the full xmlns:foo whereas an XML pipeline would not
... so why would an application that wants the full string use such
an XML pipeline?
Manu: the point was that the cost is not zero as we've claimed
<msporny> +1 for prefix instead of xmlns:
<markbirbeck> +10
Ben: independent of Henri's argument, do we feel that adding @prefix
would be prefereable
Ralph: are you just talking about a synonym for @xmlns for CURIE
prefixes?
... or the added features of the value that are under discussion?
Mark: if we hadn't chosen @xmlns we'd be in deeper trouble
Ben: there's an argument that @xmlns is working better than
expected; we _can_ actually get to it in the browsers
<msporny> me agrees - we needed to use xmlns: for XHTML, but we
should provide @prefix as an alternative.
Ben: there's another argument that even if it is working it comes at
a cost and we should move to @prefix anyway
Ralph: but what _are_ the costs? I see huge costs in destabilizing a
spec
Mark: we're also talking about changing the processing model a bit
... currently we don't provide a way to import a bunch of mappings
... my main argument in favor of a new attribute is to add a feature
to come closer to [the simplicity of] microformat
Ben: I was trying to separate the two issues; new features vs. name
Ralph: I don't think you can separate these questions now
Mark: namespaces have never really been resolved in terms of
attribute contents
... so with a new attribute we could avoid some of the mistakes of
namespaces
Ben: so if @prefix works exactly like @xmlns, are you leaning to
preferring it?
Manu, Shane: yes
Manu: we're not talking about removing @xmlns; that would
destabilize it
... just adding @prefix as an alternative
Mark: the RDFa spec says that if @xmlns: is present, it should be
processed
... we'd still process both @xmlns and @prefix
... in the CURIE spec I'm pretty sure we require that XML processors
support @xmlns
<ShaneM> CURIE spec says "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host
language, and that host language supports XML Namespaces, prefix
values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax
specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide
additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms."
Ben: in terms of the spec, we don't talk about HTML documents
currently so I think we're safe adding @prefix
... we do have to talk about the precedence of @xmlns and @prefix
... if we specified that @xmlns has precedence then we'd have a
level of backward compatiblity for old XHTML parsers
Mark: sort-of; new parsers would generate more triples but the
triples generated by an old parser would match that same subset
generated by a new parser
Ben: a note from this TF suggesting that @prefix is a way forward
would carry some weight
Mark: we could argue that @prefix is a token substitution before the
RDFa processing is invoked
<ShaneM> XHTML 1.2 could introduce @prefix
Ben: but that would mean that the RDFa Recommendation no longer is
sufficient to implement an RDFa processor
<msporny> who's working on XHTML 1.2, Shane?
Mark: if @prefix is not introduced by some group with some authority
then the HTML WG [might not give it any attention]
... the XHTML2 WG could give this a home and then in the future we
harmonize the two
Ben: test cases using @prefix would have to live somewhere
Mark: could be on a Wiki
... a Last Call comment on CURIE would allow the XHTML2 WG to be on
the record
... as supporting it for some future version
Ben: do we want to say that RDFa parsers should start supporting
@prefix soon?
... if we want @prefix to be supported in both HTML and XHTML
... so we'd recommend that new markup use @prefix instead of @xmlns
... so some document at some time in the future should say how to
write such a new RDFa parser
Mark: given our recent experience of HTML5 discussions, it's asking
for trouble if we base this on trying to find some accommodation
... whereas if we say we really believe this [independently], we
have a stronger argument
Ben: sounds like we'd want to update the RDFa specification to add
@prefix to it
<ShaneM> I think that we could successfully do this as a "PER"
second edition of RDFa Syntax 1.0
Ben: @xmlns would still be supported
Ralph: it would be harmful for this group to push for XML documents
that do not conform to the W3C Recommendation
... so I am opposed to adding @prefix without updating the
Recommendation
... the cost of updating the Recommendation could be justified if
the update included new features as well
... a possible new feature is the value syntax for @prefix
Shane: the XHTML2 WG could update the RDFa Recommendation
Ralph: yes, that's plausible
Ben: so wiki pages, test cases, etc. should have large disclaimers
right now saying @prefix is experimental
... path forward could be to keep this discussion in the wiki as
experimental, talk with implementors, work out details in the
experimental wiki page
Manu: yes
Mark: I'm a bit uneasy as there are documents being circulated that
look like specifications when they should really be blogs
... and the wiki might start to look like a specification too
... the wiki shouldn't imply that we all agree on the content
Manu: you want more than the "experimental" note on the wiki pages?
... "the existence of this page does not imply ..."
Mark: might be worth having a higher-level page that links to these
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
in [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not
set object based on TC 123. [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to look at
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
ec/0037.html [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
[recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
namespace [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[31] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[32] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[33] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
[35] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[36] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
[37] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[38] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
[39] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[40] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[41] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[42] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
[43] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to create design tests for @prefix and @profile.
[recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
[44] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16
[DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[45] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 19 February 2009 17:22:21 UTC