Meeting record: 2007-10-18 RDFa Task Force

All,

The record of last week's RDFa Task Force telecon [1]
is ready for review.

[1]  http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html


There were seven resolutions in total:

RESOLUTION: test 49 approved
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T15-39-11)

RESOLUTION: test 50 approved
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T15-41-41)

RESOLUTION: test 52 approved, pending addition of #me
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T15-55-01)

RESOLVED, test 53 accepted pending addition of #me
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T15-58-51)

RESOLVED, test 54 accepted
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T15-59-51)

RESOLVED, test 55 accepted
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T16-00-35)

RESOLUTION: test 56 accepted, renamed to 1001
(http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc.html#T16-04-52)

Topics 
 1. Action Items 
 2. Test Cases Review and Approval (46-53, 54-56) 
 3. State of Documents 
 4. Schedule for next Telecons 

Summary of Action Items 
[NEW] ACTION: Ben enter Ivan's concerns in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.
html as issues in tracker [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation
of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on
rdfa.info [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right --
unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
 
[DONE] ACTION: All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you believe the
correct triples are [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than
foaf:knows for TC46-53 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that
the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

Full copy follows below.

Cheers,
	Michael
_____________________________________________________________
W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon

18 Oct 2007

Agenda [1]

See also: IRC log [2], previous 2007-10-11 [3]

[1]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0180.
html
[2] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-irc
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees
 Present 
  Ben Adida, Ralph Swick, Manu Sporny, Simone Onofri, Shane McCarron, 
  Mark Birbeck, Michael Hausenblas 
 Regrets 
  Steven Pemberton 
 Chair 
  Ben 
 Scribe 
  Michael, Ralph 
 Contents
  Topics 
  1. Action Items 
  2. Test Cases Review and Approval (46-53, 54-56) 
  3. State of Documents 
  4. Schedule for next Telecons 
 Summary of Action Items 
 

<mhausenblas> previous 2007-10-11

<msporny> or a list of Zakim commands?

<Ralph> Zakim irc bot instructions

<msporny> I can re-connect if needed, Ralph?

<benadida> next telecon is Friday 26 october, 1400 UTC

<mhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas

Ben: There are certain edge cases we need to iron out, but we are on a
good way

Action Items
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

Ralph: Syntax Document - process issues are clear for Shane/Steven?

Shane: Steven is currently on holiday - rest offline

Ben: So this will be the draft we propose for publication

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you
believe the correct triples are [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [DONE]

->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0175.
html Ben's init the thread

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than
foaf:knows for TC46-53 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]

->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0181.
html Manu implicitly resovled it

-> http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/#term_maker foaf:maker

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to add status of various implementations
on rdfa.info [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Michael make sure to confirm a design for
checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [DONE]

->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0171.
html Michael's proposal

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create "Microformats done right --
unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

Test Cases Review and Approval (46-53, 54-56)
->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0170.
html Manu's proposed TC validator

<Ralph> scribenick: ralph

Michael: Manu proposed a wonderful implementation of a test case
validator
... I'd accept a formal action shared with Manu to implement this
... both as an on-line service and as a downloadable tool
... downloadable version would run locally but still fetch test
resources from w3.org

Manu: Ivan's help is necessary for pyrdfa bits

<scribe> ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the
implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

<mhausenblas> TC

-- test 46

Michael: I've not yet made the foaf:knows -> foaf:maker change; please
assume that correction has been made

Manu, Ben: 46 ok

Mark: we're still going to have the @instanceof discussion, right?

Ben: I'm pretty sure Mark and I agree in the case of test 46

Mark: the @instanceof discussion that Ben and I are having does apply to
test 46 as well
... I've sent Ben a long email
... I would apply @instanceof to a subject that sits before the @rel

Ben: so you'd have @instanceof inheriting something?

Mark: no, @instance of would create a bnode on the div and @rel and
@instanceof both apply to this bnode

Ben: so there would be 2 bnodes?

Mark: yes
... I'm not opposed to changing if there are use cases that require
Ben's interpretation

Manu: this will affect all the test cases

Michael: shall we put test 46 on hold pending decision on how
@instanceof works?

Ben: yes

-- test 47

Mark: if the question is whether these test are consistent, then, yes;
but if the question is whether we agree on the triples, then no
... I think @instanceof should apply to the subject

Ben: I'm confused because I thought these were the ones we agreed on

Mark: if @resource was on its own, then I'd agree that @instanceof
applies to it
... e.g. if @rel were omitted from test 47, then we might have the same
interpretation

Ralph: are these differences in interpretation of the language in the
document or differences revealed by having some actual triples to look
at?

Mark: to be fair, I've agreed to let the document proceed even though I
disagree with some of it
... looks to me like test 48 works the way I expect

->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0175.
html "Evaluation of Test Cases 46-53" [Ben 2007-10-17]

Manu: perhaps there is agreement on test 49?

Mark, Ben: test 49 is OK

Mark: I say @about always applies

Ben: this is the one wierd case where I could be convinced to create a
bnode
... I agree this test gives the right triples

RESOLUTION: test 49 approved

Manu: perhaps we agree on 50 also?

<mhausenblas> +1

<msporny> ASK WHERE {

<msporny> _:a <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name> "John Doe" .

<msporny> _:a <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type>

<msporny> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person> .

<msporny> }

Manu: the sparql is wrong; should be as posted above

Mark: test 50 is fine with me
... bnode created on the DIV and the property applies to that bnode

RESOLUTION: test 50 approved

<Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask about semantics in 49

Ralph: TAG would object to us suggesting that example.org's home page
has rdf:type foaf:Person

Michael: add #me then

Ralph: OK

-- test 51

Mark: on test 51 I'd still create the bnode first and attach the
property to it

Ben: we've said for a long time that @instanceof is syntactic sugar for
a child element

Mark: yes, but not any element
... we'd said that LINK and META apply to the parent

<mhausenblas> we could at least resolve the semantic issue in TC51

<mhausenblas> as Manu put out in his review

Shane: child of LINK or when LINK is a child? LINK's content model is
empty

<mhausenblas> <h1 instanceof="foaf:Document" property="foaf:topic">

Mark: we used to have @role be a long-handed way of adding predicates to
a parent element

Manu: the question is about precedence
... it seems consistent that @instanceof without @about always creates a
bnode

Ben: the question is "on what element"?
... I think the property picks up a subject before the bnode is
identified

<markbirbeck> s/we used to have @role/we used to have <link
rel="xh:role" href="..." \/>/

Ralph: if you need to make assumptions about the order of processing of
attributes, does that affect either of these interpretations?

Ben, Mark: we think order of processing does affect both interpretations

Manu: @@scribe didn't capture

Ben: one interpretation makes certain use cases very difficult to write

Manu: but not impossible
... the goal is to make something that is consistent

Ben: no, the goal is to meet our use cases
... how do you write "I know another person"?
... without chaining, this becomes very difficult
... came up first when we considered bibtex
... wanting to give an rdf:type to the author of a paper

Manu: we may have conflicting goals; consistency vs. use cases

Ben: I think we've always had those conflicts

<msporny> <div about="#me" rel="foaf:knows" resource="#ben">

Ben: I agree that Mark's interpretation is definitely consistent

-- test 52

<markbirbeck> I see Ben's issue. I've realised that we are missing one
element of the 'old' chaining that we don't have now.

<markbirbeck> In this:

Ben: if I heard Mark correctly, we might agree on 52

<markbirbeck> <div about="#me" rel="foaf:knows"
instanceof="foaf:Person">

<markbirbeck> <div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">

<markbirbeck> <div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">

<markbirbeck> ...for ever...

<markbirbeck> </div>

<markbirbeck> </div>

<markbirbeck> </div>

<markbirbeck> We used to make the object/subject line up.

Ben: Mark's example in irc is a good example

<markbirbeck> If we were to explicitly 'align' them, would that resolve
it for you, Ben?

Mark: in the case of 52, I see @resource working just like @about

Michael: needs #me again

Mark, Ben: agree on 52

Mark: the example I just posted in irc ...
... when we first had chaining (before we'd removed and readded it), it
was more explicit that the object of one became the subject of the other
... with one more rule, I think this addresses Ben's use case

RESOLUTION: test 52 approved, pending addition of #me

-- test 53

Ben: one triple is missing from the SPARQL
... add #me again

Michael: in the future, I will clean proposed test cases for semantic
bugs first before adding them to the test suite
... for discussion

Manu: consider completely different properties; e.g. type foaf:Document

<msporny> ASK WHERE {

<msporny> <http://www.example.org>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type>

<msporny> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person> .

<msporny> <http://www.example.org>

<msporny> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name>

<msporny> "John Doe".

<msporny> }

Ben, Mark: agree with Manu's triples in irc

RESOLVED, test 53 accepted pending addition of #me

-- test 54

(multiple properites)

Ben, Mark: look good to us

RESOLVED, test 54 accepted

-- test 55

Ben: 55 uses @rel instead of @property

Ben, Mark: 55 looks good to us

RESOLVED, test 55 accepted

-- test 56

Michael: 56 is a smorgasbord

Ben: if it's a reasonable and correct example, I see no reason to refuse
it as a test

Michael: I want to understand if it introduces anything new
... it's a matter of time
... I don't see anything new in test 56

Manu: might catch if a developer has inserted a whole bunch of hacks

Mark: consider numbering such tests starting with a higher number

Ralph: how about 200 ? :)

Manu: like torture tests?

Michael: I'll pick 1000

<msporny> ASK WHERE {

<msporny>
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0056.xhtm
l#event1>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#Vevent> .

<msporny>
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0056.xhtm
l#event1>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#summary> "Weekend off
in Iona" .

<msporny>
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0056.xhtm
l#event1>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#dtstart>

<msporny> "2006-10-21"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#date> .

<msporny>
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0056.xhtm
l#event1>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#dtend>

<msporny> "2006-10-23"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#date> .

<msporny>
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0056.xhtm
l#event1>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#url>
<http://freetime.example.org/> .

<msporny>
<http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/0056.xhtm
l#event1>

<msporny> <http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/icaltzd#location> "Iona, UK" .

<msporny> }

<msporny> "rdf:type" needed to be expanded, also missing a "." at the
end of

<msporny> the next-to-last statement.

Manu: there are two errors in the SPARQL; missing rdf:type

Mark, Ben: 56 looks good to us

RESOLUTION: test 56 accepted, renamed to 1001

<mhausenblas> Ivan's concerns on approved TC

Michael: Ivan asked us to reconsider tests 11 and 29
... both concern the handling of whitespace

Ben: Ivan has a good point particularly w.r.t. handling of PRE

<scribe> ACTION: Ben enter Ivan's concerns in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.
html as issues in tracker [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

Shane: the syntax draft asks "what is the default value for @instanceof"
... this is a schema implementation issue
... do we know an answer?

Ben: can the default be null?

Mark: but that would make every DIV be a bnode

Ben: that's why I proposed null
... since @instanceof changes the way subject interpretation occurs, it
should not have a default value
... @instanceof="" should not be the same as omitting @instanceof

Shane: so the answer is there is no default value from a DTD
implementation perspective, but there is a default interpretation from
an RDFa implementation perspective

<scribe> scribenick: mhausenblas

State of Documents
Shane: Work on Syntax and will forward it to Ralph

Ben: Regarding Primer I worked in a lot of comments, incl. BobDC
... won't be around on upcoming SWD telecon
... Need to request it via mail

Ralph: Also remind the chairs for critical issues

Schedule for next Telecons
Next Friday, 26 Oct 14:00UTC

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben enter Ivan's concerns in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.
html as issues in tracker [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation
of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on
rdfa.info [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right --
unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
 
[DONE] ACTION: All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you believe the
correct triples are [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than
foaf:knows for TC46-53 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that
the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
 
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________________


----------------------------------------------------------
 Michael Hausenblas, MSc.
 Institute of Information Systems & Information Management
 JOANNEUM RESEARCH Forschungsgesellschaft mbH
 Steyrergasse 17, A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA

 <office>
    phone: +43-316-876-1193 (fax:-1191)   
   e-mail: michael.hausenblas@joanneum.at
      web: http://www.joanneum.at/iis/ 

 <private>
   mobile: +43-660-7621761
      web: http://www.sw-app.org/ 
----------------------------------------------------------

Received on Monday, 22 October 2007 09:13:05 UTC