Meeting record: 2007-10-04 RDFa Task Force

All,

The record of yesterday's RDFa Task Force telecon [1] is ready for
review.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html


Topics 
 1. Action Items 
 2. New Test Cases Proposed by Ivan for @instanceof 
 3. Is Primer destined for Note or Rec? 
 4. non-prefixed values of @rel 

RESOLUTION: to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use cases as notes,
and test cases as supporting doc for syntax.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite
archive [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking
that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right --
unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to add implementations page to RDFa.info [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to remind the WG reviewers about review for FtF
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang
support [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael look for a more semantically correct predicate
for tests 42-45 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to send a link to new editor's draft to Ben
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

Full copy follows below.

Cheers,
	Michael

_____________________________________________________________
W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-10-04, 15:00 UTC

4 Oct 2007

Agenda [1]

See also: IRC log [2], previous 2007-09-27 [3]

[1]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0023.
html
[2] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-irc.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees
 Present 
  Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton, Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, 
  Ben Adida, Ralph Swick, Michael Hausenblas 
 Regrets 
  Simone Onofri 
Chair 
 Ben 
Scribe 
 mhausenblas, ralphs
 
Contents
 Topics 
 1. Action Items 
 2. New Test Cases Proposed by Ivan for @instanceof 
 3. Is Primer destined for Note or Rec? 
 4. non-prefixed values of @rel 
Summary of Action Items 
 

Action Items
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to add implementations page to RDFa.info
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[DONE]

Ben: I started to move stuff

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to remind the WG reviewers about review for
FtF [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Shane to send a link to new editor's draft to Ben
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[DONE]

Ben: I fwd link to SWD

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to look into Science Commons use case
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to
add xml:lang support [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]

<benadida> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on
rdfa.info [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Michael look for a more semantically correct
predicate for tests 42-45 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]

->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0038.
html report

<Steven> I edited the cruft from last week's minutes

Ben: Change the TC accordingly

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Michael make sure to confirm a design for
checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create "Microformats done right --
unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

New Test Cases Proposed by Ivan for @instanceof
->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0001
Ivan's TC proposal

Michael: I have looked them over and they appear to be reasonable

Ralph: I encouraged Ivan to propose these so we had test cases that
document our decision w.r.t. subject of @instanceof

Michael: I'm only being cautious about the process -- want the TF to
discuss adding them before we review them
... Fabien's proposed test cases are more complex

Mark: I'd prefer to review the proposed tests after Michael has uploaded
them to the test suite archive

<scribe> ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

Michael: Fabien's proposed tests are not atomic; they're quite complex

Shane: do we have a process for more complex cases?

<mhausenblas>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0069.
html

Michael: the tests are nice but complex

<mhausenblas> http://sw.joanneum.at/rdfa/rdfadebug/index.php

<mhausenblas>
http://sw.joanneum.at/rdfa/rdfadebug/index.php?preparedSelURL=http%3A%2F
%2Fwww-sop.inria.fr%2Fedelweiss%2Fpeople%2FFabien.Gandon%2Fdocs%2Fw3c%2F
rdfa%2Ftests%2F2007%2F09%2F10%2F0047.xhtml

Ralph: Fabien's proposed 0046 with multiple space-separated properties
seems the shorted possible test; what's the problem?

<scribe> ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite
archive [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

Ben: Let us review the new TC (Fabien's and Ivan's) together next time

Is Primer destined for Note or Rec?
Ben: AFAIU Primer is a note and Syntax goes REC-Track

Steven: Second that
... why having a rec on non-normative stuff

Ben: Tom asked for SWD regarding this issue

Ralph: Most SW TR package have this
... REC Track has a precise definition

[[http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html]]

scribe: so Steven is right in saying that there may be more work with it

Steven: May risk that the Primer may hold up the whole package

Ben: Just want to make sure that it si no problem for SWD WG

Ralph: eg GRDDL Primer is a note
... so might be no reason to push the Primer through REC Track

Ben: So we have Primer, Syntax, UC, TC
... Syntax goes REC Track
... Primer and UC are notes

<benadida> PROPOSE to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use cases as
notes, and test cases as supporting doc for syntax.

+1

<benadida> RESOLVED

<benadida> RESOLUTION: to bring syntax as rec track, primer and use
cases as notes, and test cases as supporting doc for syntax.

non-prefixed values of @rel
Ben: Proposed the HTML URI

Mark: We seem to have agreed on a pre-processing step
... takes out null values


. and puts them into some NS TBD 
scribe: I'd like to see them put in a kind of general space

Ben: The goal is that for people that use DC conventions
... which are not RDFa compatible, to make them work
... ignoring non-prefixed
... so I do favour the pre-processing

Mark: Agree

Manu: What does it mean semantically

Mark: When undefined, certain use cases might be problematic

Ben: When writing the RDFa extractor - what is the instruction for
non-prefixed
... we should focus the discussion
... identify what is part of the RDFa spec

Mark: Right - look into it

Ben: It is ok to say that @rel only excepts prefixed values
... @instanceof does not have this legacy problems

Ralph: For the record. What is the proposal?

Ben: To ignore unprefixed @rels
... after pre-processing

<RalphS> Mark: the preprocessor will expand the reserved words in the
HTML namespace

<RalphS> ... a processor might also have a DC preprocessing step

Ben: Proposal that RDFa defines a generic pre-processing step
... the pre-processing turns known attributes into prefixed ones

<RalphS> Steven: for @rel and @property both?

Ben: the actual processing ignores all unprefixed ones

<RalphS> Ben: @property is one we've added

<RalphS> Mark: it would be nice to be able to use <span
xmlns="...foaf..." rel="knows" /> shorthand

<RalphS> Ben: but that modifies the host language namespace

Ben: being open for other pre-processing steps

RalphS: So @rel/@rev unprefixed after pre-processing are ignored?
... we should be careful wrt the HTML host language
... reserved words are expanded
... so RDFa extractors can rely on that

Ralph: To state something undefined is problematic
... regarding common usage

Ben: For example take profile in the head

<RalphS> Ralph: saying "undefined" for a feature that users may come to
depend on in some implementation will lead to interoperability problems.

Ben: so we should not overwrite it

Mark: There are two end of the scale
... just to ensure to make things available
... Might be a solution to put these triple into a non-default graph

Ralph: Layering issues, here
... whatever happens in the pre-processing step is up to the application

Mark: range from ignored to undefined

Ralph: ignored means that pre-processing should have been done else

Ben: Towards a proposal ...
... work with buckets
... define which goes into what

Manu: Fine when application-specific pre-processing is done that
generates extra triples

<RalphS> Manu: suggest handling unprefixed values in the same way as
"extra triples" -- just say that if these generate triples, they are not
in the default graph

Mark: Shouldn't we be more specific
... hard to tell if a document is valid, etc.

Ben: IMHO it is not a RDFa extractor issue

Mark: It is confusing not to state it explicitely

<RalphS> Ben: if an application generates extra triples, whether they're
from unprefixed @rel values or not, they get handled the same way. Don't
need to restate this multiple times.

Mark: Just as we defined it at CURIE's

Ben: Enable developer to extract more triples

in a defined way

Ben: We seem to have a resolution
... non-prefixed @rel/@rev do not generate triples

<RalphS> ("in the default graph")

<benadida> PROPOSE: @rel and @rev values that are non-prefixed and not
in the XHTML reserved words do not generate triples in the default graph

<RalphS> +1

+1

<msporny> +1

<Steven> ok

Mark: For consistency: @property the same?

<Steven> ok with me

Ben: Separate issue

<Steven> Consistency is important

Ralph: The issue with @rel/@rev is that there is already a usage

<Steven> and @property is new

<RalphS> Mark: property="foo" will, by CURIE rules, go into the 'vocab'
(i.e. non-default) graph

<RalphS> ... must write property=":foo" to use the in-scope namespace

<RalphS> ... according to the current Syntax document

<markbirbeck>
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-rdfa-syntax-20070927/#s_curies

Ben: Need to continue this discussion, based on the goal

Mark: Acknowledge legacy usage of @rel values

<RalphS> [I'm interested in the new input from Manu that having
different rules for @rel values vs. @property values will be overly
confusing]

<benadida> ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

<RalphS> [I really want @property="foo" to use the in-scope namespace,
but I'm interested in more discussion especially from Manu]

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite
archive [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking
that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right --
unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to add implementations page to RDFa.info [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to remind the WG reviewers about review for FtF
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben, Mark, Elias, and other implementors to add xml:lang
support [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[DONE] ACTION: Michael look for a more semantically correct predicate
for tests 42-45 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to send a link to new editor's draft to Ben
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
 
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________________


----------------------------------------------------------
 Michael Hausenblas, MSc.
 Institute of Information Systems & Information Management
 JOANNEUM RESEARCH Forschungsgesellschaft mbH
 Steyrergasse 17, A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA

 <office>
    phone: +43-316-876-1193 (fax:-1191)   
   e-mail: michael.hausenblas@joanneum.at
      web: http://www.joanneum.at/iis/ 

 <private>
   mobile: +43-660-7621761
      web: http://www.sw-app.org/
----------------------------------------------------------

Received on Friday, 5 October 2007 21:04:49 UTC