- From: Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>
- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:33:35 +0200
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html
A little rough at the edges I'm afraid, but I had to get them posted
quickly.
In text:
- DRAFT -
Weekly RDFa Teleconference
19 Jul 2007
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc
Attendees
Present
+043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, Simone,
markbirbeck
Regrets
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Steven
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Action items
2. [6]@resource and @href on same element
3. [7]interaction of @instanceof, @about, and @rel
* [8]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<RalphS> Agenda: name: Smith, MacKenzie
<RalphS> email: kenzie@MIT.EDU
<RalphS> oops, strike that
lol
<RalphS> [9]previous 2007-07-12
[9] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes
<scribe> scribe: Steven
<mhausenblas>
<RalphS>
[10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
ul/0157.html
[10]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html
<RalphS> [11]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1
[11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1
<RalphS> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI
(at w3.org) [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]
[12] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
Action items
<RalphS> Ralph: I believe my request for
[13]http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa in
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.h
tml will be approved
[13] http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa
[14]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.html
<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere
proposal [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
<scribe> -- done
<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to look into Science Commons use case
[recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[CONTINUES]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
<scribe> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI
(at w3.org) [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
<scribe> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
[recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
<scribe> ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere
[recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when
using @content [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
[POSTPONED]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25
<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when
using @content after October [CONTINUES] [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
@resource and @href on same element
Topic: @resource and @href on same element
Ben: What happens?
<mhausenblas>
[22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
ul/0110.html
[22]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
<mhausenblas> ->
Mh: How do you decide when something is dereferenceable?
Ben: URI vs URN?
MH: But with http: you don't know if a URI is dereferencable until
you try
Ben: Example?
MH: [scribe misses]
Ben: No, the idea of @resource in this proposal is to override href
in the same way that @content overrides the real content
... @resource always overrides @href for the semantic purpose
Bne: Any objections?
Steven: Sounds mostly harmless
Mark: In the case of @content we are thinking of the content
providing the rdf:label
... in this case we could use the href in a similar way
... in any case the href shouldn't generate a new version of the
same triple
Ben: Need more time?
Steven: Well I do, but I understand we are under time pressure
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on @resource precedence ...
<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to propose an action to make a test case
<benadida> ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource
@href on same element [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
Steven: I suppose my only problem is that RDFa is getting more and
more complicated, while it started off so simple
Ben: I think the fact that the clickable href may not be the
semantic one is a good use case
... don't you think the similarity to @content convincing?
Steven: I have many times needed @content, but never felt the need
for @resoruce
<RalphS> Simone: RDFa must remain simple to allow simple
implementations.
Simone: [muffled]
Ben: Yes, but we mustn't be *too* simple
... it is a question of balance
... href should be mentioned iin the primer in the main section and
@resource should be in the advanced section
<Simone> Simone: I think we may remain simple, actually people uses
Microformats and not other, as You said Ben, we must found a Good
balance for simplicity ;)
Ralph: I vote for keeping the primer simple, but I don't think we
need a use case to justify this feature.
... in the primer
... but we do need it in the spec
<RalphS> Ralph: for interoperability we need to specify the behavior
when both attributes are used in the same element
Steven: I'm worried that RDFa, which used to be describable in a
paragraph is getting too complicated
... I haven't been convinced of the utility of @resoruce over just
@href
<RalphS> [24]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02
[24] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02
Mark: Well, this is standard rdf stuff, why do you think it is OK to
have an href to a non-dereferencable URI?
<RalphS> [25][RDFa] ISSUE-34: partial resolution to @href everywhere
[25]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
Steven: I don't agree that it is so cut and dried that there is such
a division
<mhausenblas> +q
<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say that we may not need to justify a
use case
Mark: Well, is something an information resource or not?
... that is a good distinction
... otherwise you can't talk about web pages, make statements about
webpages
Ben: We have another huge issue to discuss, so we are in a time bind
here
... I have to ask if you can live with this
... especially since you are going on vacation
Steven: I hadn't taken the discussion last week as a resolution of
the @resource issue
MH: Well, if you don't want to use @resource you don't have to use
it
... it doesn't make the language more complicated
Ben: Well as an author, but not as a consumer
Ralph: We are concerned that @href should have effect outside of
RDFa, and so is unsafe for us to rely on presentational behaviours,
so I supported the addition of @resource
... I don't agree with Mark's interpretation about different types
of URIs being approriate or not for the two attributes
... I think we need @resource because of href legacy
... I agree about avoiding complexity
<RalphS> Steven: looking at the messages in the thread about
introducing @href and @resource together, I was shocked at the
complexity of the additional rules
<RalphS> ... by slow accretion we've increased the complexity
<RalphS> ... I have a feeling of uneasiness about the addition of
new rules
<RalphS> Ben: the additional rules had to do with the next issue,
considering striping, not so much this one
Mark: But I haven't heard a good reason for why you think it is OK
to put a URN in an href
Steven: But I don'; think that that is wrong
... a browser could dereference such a thing
... even if current browsers don't
... I can imagine ways it could be done
Mark: But the current practice for href is that it points at a
dereferencable thing
Ralph: I didn't want this argument today
... but I don't think we need to differentiate between two sorts of
URI
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask Steven about the scope of
worry
MH: Steven, are you worried about complecity for authors or
implementors?
Steven: Both, but mostly authors
<RalphS> Ralph: <a href="urn:..."> doesn't do very much useful in
today's browsers but it's not improper.
Ben: Even if Mark is wrong, the risk is small
... in the future we could delete the feature if we don't need it
<markbirbeck> Ralph...it creates a blue link in today's browsers. :)
Ralph: I'd rather people use href, but I think there is a need for
resource
Ben: The reason we think rdfa is better is because we have thought
through the edge cases
... I hope you can live with this Steven
... I agree that it is bigger than it was, but that's because there
is a lot of interest from other people
<RalphS> Steven: I am willing to live with @resource
Steven: I am willing to say I can live with it, in order to move
forward
(I said the same about @class by the way)
RESOLUTION: @href and @resource everywhere
<benadida> ... and that @resource overrides @href as per
[26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
ul/0110.html
[26]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html
RESOLUTION: @resource overrides @href as per Ben's propoal
<mhausenblas> +1
<RalphS> I can live with this too
Ben: Steven's worries noted
... I had to live with not using @class, so I know how you feel
<RalphS> [telecon extended +15 mins]
interaction of @instanceof, @about, and @rel
Ben: Whatever @instanceof is called
... instanceof represents rdf:type
<benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows">
<benadida> <span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
<benadida> </div>
Ben: This is useful for a lot of cases
<benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">
<benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows"
instanceof="foaf:Person">
<benadida> <#bar> foaf:knows _:div0
Ben: Without the instanceof here, it would mean the triple above
... but what does instanceof apply to? bar or bnode
... I think bnode
Mark: It feels like it should apply to the @about
<benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows">
<benadida> <link rel="rdf:type" href="foaf:Person">
<benadida> </div>
Mark: It would allow you to build up by adding more people to who
you know
\s/MS/Ma/
Ben: So you agree?
Mark: Yes
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask what happens with additional
id?
MH: What about if there is an id?
Ben: Not so fast
<Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say if intuition doesn't match the
specification we're creating a long-term problem for ourselves
Ralph: The intuition of people coming fresh to this is important,
and they are likely to assume the subject in this case
... we shouldn't try to justify a non-intuitive interpretation
Mark: If you add it progressively, I think it makes sense
... maybe @about is going to be less common than we have thought
... you could rewrite lots of examples differently, so that
href/resource would be more likely
Ben: The complication is that in the past we have been annotating
existing content
... [scribe doesn't understand]
Mark: You mean you think people will use href for the subject a lot
Ben: I can't say for sure
... but may be
... I think striping will happen in RDFa
... we do need a shorthand for rdf:type
... there is a necessar level of complexity
<benadida> <a about="/photo1" rel="license"
href="[27]http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/">foo</a>
[27] http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/
Ben: we do need @about
<benadida> <span resource="/photo">
<benadida> <a rel="license" href="...">
<benadida> </span>
<benadida> <img rel="license" src=...>
Ralph: Does the right thing happen if you use img src= ?
Ben: Yes
Mark: You mean if the src has /photo ?
... then you would need rev
Ralph: Then I think this is unintuitive
Ben: There might be complex rules for whacky use, but best practice
will always be easy
Mark: We have to resolve what happens if @resource and @src coexist
on an element
Ralph: I need to reread the thread
<RalphS> Ralph: I'm concerned about the intuition regarding <img
src="/photo1" rel="license" href="[28]http://c.org/licenses/1.0/" />
and the <a about="/photo1"> example
[28] http://c.org/licenses/1.0/
Ben: Please send your thoughts Steven before you go on vacation of
possible
<mhausenblas> Please use ->
[29]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure as an
example repository
[29] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure
Ben: Mark, we need to come up with a consistent story on this
<RalphS> next meeting: 26 July
[adjourn]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal
[recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource
@href on same element [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[30] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
[recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when
using @content after October [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[32] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
[33] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
[POSTPONED] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax
when using @content [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
[35] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25
[DONE] ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI
(at w3.org) [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[DONE] ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere
[recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[37] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 19 July 2007 16:33:56 UTC