meeting record 30 May 2006


                           Data Access Working Group

30 May 2006

   See also: [2]IRC log


          Souri, Kendall_Clark, ericP, LeeF, AndyS, FredZ, PatH

          LibbyM, SteveH, DanC





     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]1. Convene [1]RDF Data Access WG meeting of Tuesday, May
            30, 2006 at
         2. [6]2. XTech & WWW SPARQL/DAWG show reports
         3. [7]JSON results format -- update on where we stand
         4. [8]valueTesting -- update on where we stand
         5. [9]test suite maintenance -- update on where we stand
         6. [10]Renewed interest in SADDLE?
         7. [11]DDR Use Case?
         8. [12]Souri's Q:s
     * [13]Summary of Action Items

   PROPOSED: to accept
   83> as a true record of the 9 May 2006 telecon


1. Convene [1]RDF Data Access WG meeting of Tuesday, May 30, 2006 at

   kendall: I was not at XTech or WWW. What community interest was

   <kendall> AndyS: I'd like to hear about Jena community interest too

   LeeF: People seem to accept SPARQL as enabling the semweb get around
   the next corner

   <AndyS> Ack

   <AndyS> TBL said "SPARQL" in his intro, several times

   <kendall> Leigh Dodds gave a talk about SPARQL, including good stuff
   about protocol

   <kendall> EricP presented SPASQL

   EricP: Leigh Dodds' and Jim Melton's and ericP's SPARQL talks were
   well attended

   <kendall> 55 people at Jena user conference; lots of interest in

   <kendall> Ingenta talk about SPARQL & Jena & VLDBs

   AndyS: Ingenta's talk at Jena User Conference and XTech came accross

   kendall: wondering if the JSON works needs more strength behind it


   <LeeF> +1 to what Andy said

   AndyS: it is in a good state for what most folks need

   AndyS: 80% of the folks [somewhere] claimed to know how to write
   SPARQL queries

2. XTech & WWW SPARQL/DAWG show reports

   LeeF: [describes the JSON callback issue]

   <AndyS> There is a proposal for a fix for this in JSONRequest so there
   is a coming solution for all

   <LeeF> I've heard much doubt expressed that JSONRequest a) solves the
   problem and b) will get enough steam to make momentum

   <AndyS> [15]

   <kendall> yep, I'm a bit skeptical about JSONRequest.

   <AndyS> maybe - but do we want to compete/promote a different solution
   which has not been security-reviewed? :-)

   <kendall> LeeF: can you drop a pointer to this Yahoo doc that
   describes the callback solution?

   LeeF: cross site scripting problem: page a gets access to intranet and
   gives data to another site.
   ... cross site scripting demo solution is to shut off browser
   ... [describes yahoo solution]
   ... problem: can't use POST
   ... proposal from Doug M-something, who invented JSON, has several
   security restrictions.

   <kendall> Douglas Crockford

   LeeF: in my talks, i don't see it gaining critical momentum

   <kendall> he didn't invent it as much as wrote it up :)

   <AndyS> Doug's slides: [16] including
   lots of links to stuff of interest

   LeeF: Elias, AndyS and I discussed adding reference to the yahoo
   parameter-named-callback document
   ... I am not happy with any of these.

   <AndyS> Yahoo doc: [17]

   kendall: agree, none are good
   ... odd to put in a results document

   LeeF: we may have crossed that line when we mentioned mime type

   <Zakim> kendall, you wanted to point out MIME type bug in JSON Results
   format doc

   kendall: i don't want to add the callback, but i want to fix the

   <scribe> ACTION: LeeF to fix mimetype in json-reults [recorded in

   LeeF: DaveB does not want to implement the the callback unless it's in
   the document

   kendall: i don't think we should explain how to get around security
   restrictions in a results format document

JSON results format -- update on where we stand

valueTesting -- update on where we stand

   <LeeF> yes

   <LeeF> I'm more comfortable saying nothing if we know that there's
   active work on the front going on elsewhere

   <kendall> EricP: Some browser vendors, including Mozilla, working on
   the x-site scripting issue, and there are some groups w/in the W3C who
   are also working on the issue

   <kendall> EricP: though some of them may be doing so somewhat

   <AndyS> Is this issue valueTesting as a whole or just the boolean

   <kendall> [19]

   <kendall> FWIW

test suite maintenance -- update on where we stand

   ACTION: AndyS: to draft of open-world = tests [recorded in
   [20]] [CONTINUED]

   <scribe> ACTION: EricP to propose text and tests to add {boolean < > =
   != boolean} to SPARQL [recorded in
   [21]] [CONTINUED]

Renewed interest in SADDLE?

   kendall: some [22]traffic on and off list about saddle
   ... have folks done enough to work for us to consider doing DAWG work

   [23]extraction of the SADDLE input from the Boston F2F

   <kendall> AndyS: Issue isn't resolved; believes that we're not able to
   solve it w/ the resources & time we have left

   AndyS: I think it we couldn't do it in the time allotted

   <LeeF> +1 Andy and Eric - just not quite ready

DDR Use Case?

   kendall: MWI, or someone, has a Device Description Repository
   ... historically used RDF to store the data. want to use SPARQL to
   ... semweb coordination group wants us to ... maybe use it as a use
   ... Anyone want to look at the DDR doc?

   <AndyS> The doc does not contain the string "RDF" - it's use cases

   kendall: ericP: I think we can slack on this. They will very likely
   look at SPARQL and tell us where it hurts

   <Souri2> Does SPARQL require that a graph pattern must contain at
   least one non-OPTIONAL triple-pattern?

   <kendall> PROPOSED: to meet on 6 June 2006 at 13:30 UTC

   Next meeting: 6 June, chair: KendallC, scribe: ???

   <AndyS> Seconded

   <kendall> So RESOLVED?

   zakime, take up next agendum

Souri's Q:s

   <LeeF> For that matter, you can have a WHERE { }

   Souri: SELECT ?a WHERE { } -- what's ?a ?

   <LeeF> zero rows

   <kendall> hmm, FWIW, there's an ISWC proposed paper that claims SPARQL
   is PSPACE-complete... I bid heavily to review it. :>

   <LeeF> or 1 row with an unbound var?

   <kendall> but someone here might be interested in following up w/ the

   <LeeF> I would rather that these discussions be done on the WG lists.

   <EliasT> ericP, thanks for volunteering AndyS w/o his consent.

   <EliasT> It's ok to ask questions but to expect the WG to
   change/reconsider the document after the time has expired for
   comments, it causes disruption.

   <EliasT> However, if you have development questions, we have a public
   mailing list for development.

   <EliasT> [24]

   <kendall> yes, elias, but these seem to be questions about the spec
   from a WG member. I don't see any requests for spec changes.

   <LeeF> 9:30 boston time

   <Souri2> Query => SELECT ?x WHERE {?x a _:y}

   <Souri2> Data => <John> a <Human> . <John> a <Mammal> . <John> a
   <Animal> .

   <Souri2> Result = {<John>, <John>, <John>} or just {<John>} ?

   <LeeF> Elias will do it.

   <EliasT> WHAT?

   <EliasT> WHAT?

   <EliasT> QUE?

   Next meeting: 6 June, chair: KendallC, scribe: EliasT

   <kendall> Elias to scribe next week


   <EliasT> Souri2, LeeF will answer that question for you.

   <EliasT> did Fred just leave?

   so it appears

   Query => SELECT DISTINCT ?x WHERE {?x a _:y} => {<John>}

   <Souri2> Query2: SELECT ?x WHERE {?x a ?y}

   <LeeF> sequence of solutions --> projection --> *set* of solutions
   (represented however an implementation chooses) --> maybe distinct

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: EricP to propose text and tests to add {boolean < > = !=
   boolean} to SPARQL [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: LeeF to fix mimetype in json-reults [recorded in

   [PENDING] ACTION: AndyS: to draft of open-world = tests [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

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    $Date: 2006/05/30 16:39:57 $




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Received on Tuesday, 30 May 2006 16:43:12 UTC