Re: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October

> On Oct 19, 2023, at 17:00, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> NISO and NIST  are two different organizations. DAISY, an organization incorporated in Switzerland is a member of NISO and it seems that we have full participation rights.
>  

Oops, my bad:-)

Ivan


> Best
> George
>  
>  
> From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> 
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2023 8:49 AM
> To: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org>>
> Cc: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org <mailto:public-publishing-sc@w3.org>>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com <mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>
> Subject: Re: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October
>  
>  
> 
> 
>> On Oct 19, 2023, at 16:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org>> wrote:
>>  
>> And another brief FYI: the N in NISO should not be taken too literally. Especially over the past few years, NISO has worked hard to reach out globally. Its conferences now attract a significant number of participants from all over the world, which it encourages by having events at EU- and Asia-centric times, and its Working Groups are definitely global (though admittedly US-heavy).
>  
> I guess this is very much a side-issue for now, but just for the sake of argumentation: could a French institution (company, University, or let us say, AFNOR, the official French ISO branch) join a NIST Working Group on equal terms?
>  
> Ivan
>  
>  
> 
> 
>> Nowhere near as international as the W3C though. And it's the US representative in ISO so a lot of its work winds up in ISO.--Bill
>> 
>> On 2023-10-18 02:54, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 19:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org>> wrote:
>>>> If it's of interest, "JATS4R" is the JATS for Reuse Working Group in
>>>> NISO (JATS XML is a NISO standard). JATS is not made for rendering;
>>>> it's made for machine processing to do what you need it to do. As I
>>>> mentioned, journal hosts convert JATS XML (their spec of JATS) to
>>>> HTML for online rendering. JATS4R's mission is to develop best
>>>> practices for using the very extensive and complex tag suite that is
>>>> JATS (which no two publishers use exactly the same way, especially
>>>> in the rich metadata that is in the header of every JATS XML file--a
>>>> barrier to interoperability). They have Subgroups that focus on
>>>> different issues; Tzviya and I recently participated in the
>>>> Accessibility Subgroup. Bottom line: this is not about making HTML
>>>> work with JATS, it's about making JATS work with HTML. That's
>>>> exactly the kind of task the JATS4R WG was created for.
>>> Thanks, good to know.
>>> I think we can at least signal to that group that W3C or, more
>>> specifically, the publishing@w3c activity, is happy to be liaised with
>>> on that work if they think it is worthwhile. I bothers me a bit to see
>>> that work done by a US organization rather than something more
>>> international (eg, ISO), but, well…
>>> Thanks!
>>> Ivan
>>> 
>>>> On 2023-10-17 02:07, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>>> Bill Kasdorf wrote on 16/10/2023 18:49:
>>>> This is fine by me. After my usual enthusiastic response to your
>>>> email, Ivan, I had second thoughts anyway about the viability of
>>>> continuing the two I commented on.
>>>> I agree with Tzviya's observation that scholarly publishing is bound
>>>> to JATS. She's right, JATS4R is the place for any mapping to be
>>>> done, not the W3C. And absolutely no subsetting of HTML is
>>>> appropriate. Even the new CP/LD standard from NISO specifically uses
>>>> the always-current version of HTML with no limitations.
>>>> One observation wrt the mapping issue: this is obviously done
>>>> (differently) by all the leading journal hosting platforms. They all
>>>> require JATS XML (to their specification) as input, and they all
>>>> convert it to HTML for online rendering. It would be interesting to
>>>> see how much commonality, or lack thereof, is in those conversions.
>>>> But it's not likely any group in the W3C would do this.
>>>> I do not know that market, its players, etc, but I would not dismiss
>>>> to do this at W3C. We certainly have the expertise of both XML and
>>>> HTML... But I am not sure whether (a) there is an interest of
>>>> harmonization and (b) there are players out there (companies and
>>>> individuals) that we could reach out to on that subject. I would
>>>> certainly be interested to move this forward.
>>>> But that is another matter. I think we all agree that the CG of
>>>> today is dead. Sniff...
>>>> Ivan
>>>> --Bill
>>>> On 2023-10-16 12:33, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>>> We have time until tomorrow to decide.
>>>> At this moment, my personal opinion is that the only CG that I would
>>>> consider keeping is the synchronized multimedia one. I know that
>>>> Marisa was fairly active for a while and had a draft document in a
>>>> decent state. Avneesh & George, how important is this work from an
>>>> accessibility perspective?
>>>> It is unfortunately true that the others have very little activity
>>>> and I don't see any chance to get anything done. See what Tzviya
>>>> said about the scholarly html CG; as for the research objects, some
>>>> of the core researchers at the Uni of Southampton have left for
>>>> other pastures and the focus of the work is now more by NIST.
>>>> Ivan
>>>> ——
>>>> Ivan Herman
>>>> +33 652 46 00 43
>>>> (Written on my iPad. Excuses for brevity and misspellings...)
>>>> On 16 Oct 2023, at 14:49, Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> I don't think that Scholarly HTML can succeed unless it is mapped
>>>> to JATS. So, I don't think it's worth continuing this CG. HTML does
>>>> not need to be subset. RDFa etc is too complex for some publishers
>>>> and not close enough to JATS for others. I know this sounds
>>>> pessimistic, but the scholarly world is bound to JATS. If the JATS4R
>>>> committee is interested in a mapping, this can be accomplished, and
>>>> I would absolutely make time for it.
>>>> Tzviya Siegman
>>>> Information Standards Principal
>>>> Wiley
>>>> 201-748-6884
>>>> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 5:13 PM
>>>> To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org <mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
>>>> Cc: W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org <mailto:public-publishing-sc@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please
>>>> review by 17 October
>>>> Thanks for this, Ivan.
>>>> WRT the Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group,
>>>> that absolutely looks important to the work happening now in the
>>>> research community, and yes, the new CP/LD format from NISO (not
>>>> NIST) is definitely relevant. I can't tell if the work of this CG is
>>>> moribund, but they haven't published anything that I can see. Rob
>>>> Sanderson, whom I know (or "knew" might be more accurate--he did a
>>>> lot of work on IIIF when he was at Getty, now at Yale; he may not
>>>> remember me), is listed as an original co-chair but he's not in the
>>>> list of participants now. I actually know a lot of people who would
>>>> probably be interested in this work, but I don't see any of them in
>>>> the participants list. How do you suggest I proceed on this? Reach
>>>> out to Rob? Contact the current chair?
>>>> Let you do some digging first and then let me know what I should do,
>>>> if anything? It could be just that the original task they set out to
>>>> address is too amorphous; I can imagine a lot of discussion that
>>>> never got anywhere. Maybe having something concrete like CP/LD to
>>>> react to would revive the work. (BTW I'm reviewing the edited MS
>>>> today of an article I wrote on CP/LD for ISU--the _Information
>>>> Services and Use_ journal, which publishes articles on NISO
>>>> events--that might be a starting point, though it is very
>>>> non-technical, targeted for a general
>>>> audience.)
>>>> BTW as for the Scholarly HTML CG, I agree that's important and if
>>>> Tzviya could be cloned, that might be a solution. I also know people
>>>> who _should_ be involved in that. One issue: most scholarly
>>>> _publishers_ (note the italics) are focused on JATS XML (or BITS for
>>>> books); they then deliver that to their journal host (Atypon, part
>>>> of Wiley; Silverchair; HighWire; Ingenta; etc.) which actually does
>>>> the work of converting the JATS XML to HTML.
>>>> However, as you know I've been talking a lot recently to people in
>>>> the research community who are absolutely interested in scholarly
>>>> HTML, especially since preprints have become so important. The arXiv
>>>> folks, for example, are working on getting accessible HTML for the
>>>> millions of preprints they have--almost all of which came to them as
>>>> TeX or LaTex and are now provided as PDFs that have lost almost all
>>>> the structure that was in the LaTex. They want HTML. Many (actually
>>>> I think most) of those articles never go on to formal publication as
>>>> a journal article.
>>>> That community specifically, as you know, is physics and math. But
>>>> there is a lot of movement in science in general to get content
>>>> online (fast and in smaller chunks) and they even talk about
>>>> breaking free of "the tyranny of the PDF." This is being pushed a
>>>> lot by the funders of research. So both of these CGs should be of
>>>> interest to those folks, and there are lots of them.
>>>> I decided to give you all this info now because you need to answer
>>>> yea or nay on keeping the CGs open by Tuesday!
>>>> --Bill
>>>> On 2023-10-11 02:36, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> we regularly get these reviews, which is essential in view of the
>>>> growing number of CG-s. Here are the CG-s in the list relevant (in
>>>> my
>>>> view) for the publishing activity. We may want to decide whether
>>>> we'd
>>>> ask to keep them alive for now or not. Note that if we decide to ask
>>>> for keeping a particular CG alive, we should contact the CG (or the
>>>> chairs) to see whether they really want to continue or not. I've
>>>> attached my own, initial comments.
>>>> - CSS Print Community Group
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__>;
>>> 
>>> !!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD
>>> 
>>>> 9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9oOPdkRh$ )  I remember having seen a reference
>>>> lately to this work, but I do not remember when and where. Maybe one
>>>> of you do. It would obviously important for publications, I presume
>>>> many of the concepts could apply to EPUB rendering...
>>>> - Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1>
>>> 
>>> 1eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>>> 
>>>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u1oTZ-e$ )  I had great hopes for research objects,
>>>> which could have radically change scholarly communication. This
>>>> research was mostly driven by the U of Southampton but it seemed
>>>> that, alas!, this works has wind down.
>>>> BillK, this is very close to the NIST work you showed me a while
>>>> ago,
>>>> I wonder whether there is an interest to revive that CG with that
>>>> work
>>>> in mind…
>>>> - Scholarly HTML Community Group
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm>
>>> 
>>> l/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJ
>>> 
>>>> idXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9g3UVj7c$ )  Tzviya, you are assigned as a
>>>> chair… I would like to see this group succeed, but it may be just
>>>> a dream. The impression is that the scholarly publishing world is
>>>> not interested by any such change...
>>>> - Synchronized Multimedia for Publications Community Group
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p>
>>> 
>>> ub/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5y
>>> 
>>>> JidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9hPqzNkd$ )  This is the one led by
>>>> Marisa,
>>>> and the idea was to come up with an alternative to SMIL; this was
>>>> also
>>>> briefly discussed in the EPUB WG. I would hate to see this effort
>>>> go, but I believe Marisa has no time for this, and I am not sure
>>>> there is a real market interest...
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Ivan
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org <mailto:ij@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by
>>>> 17 October
>>>> Date: October 10, 2023 at 19:57:35 GMT+2
>>>> To: w3t Team <w3t@w3.org <mailto:w3t@w3.org>>, Shawn Lawton Henry <shawn@w3.org <mailto:shawn@w3.org>>,
>>>> Marie-Claire Forgue <mcf@w3.org <mailto:mcf@w3.org>>, Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org <mailto:fd@w3.org>>
>>>> Resent-From: w3t@w3.org <mailto:w3t@w3.org>
>>>> Archived-At:
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/mid/881E33FF-903C-419
>>> 
>>> 9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg <mailto:9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg>
>>> 
>>>> jO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9n7BKYZp$ >
>>>> List-Id: <w3t.w3.org <http://w3t.w3.org/>>
>>>> Message-Id: <881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org <mailto:881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org>>
>>>> Team,
>>>> (Shawn, see question on WAI-engage)
>>>> (Marie-Claire, see question Chapter-related groups) (François, see
>>>> question on the Web Media API CG)
>>>> From time to time (such as in March [1]) we close inactive Community
>>>> Groups. The tool we use to identify candidates recently found 90
>>>> inactive CGs:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co>
>>> 
>>> mmunity-process/2023Oct/0003.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BH
>>> 
>>>> uWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9nOAyyEV$
>>>> If you see any groups in that list that you think should remain
>>>> open,
>>>> please let us know by 17 October (4pm ET).
>>>> SPECIFIC REQUESTS:
>>>> * Shawn, in March you wrote "Please leave [WAI-Engage] open until
>>>> October 2023 at least." It seems still to be inactive. What do you
>>>> advise?
>>>> * Marie-Claire, in April you asked that we keep open the Nordic
>>>> Chapter Smart City / Web of Things CG and Nordic Web of Data CG.
>>>> Both appear to be inactive.  What do you advise?
>>>> * François, the Web Media API CG appears to be inactive, but we're
>>>> in
>>>> the process of renewing the MoU with CTA that encompasses their
>>>> work.
>>>> What do you advise?
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Ian
>>>> [1]
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq>
>>> 
>>> /2023Mar/0080.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFY
>>> 
>>>> Al-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u898yyH$
>>>> -- Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org <mailto:ij@w3.org>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/__;!!N11 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/__;!!N11>
>>> 
>>> eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>>> 
>>>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9shFXDMQ$
>>>> Tel: +1 917 450 8783
>>>> ----
>>>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>>>> Home:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/__;!!N11eV2i <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.w3.org/People/Ivan/__;!!N11eV2i>
>>> 
>>> wtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvE
>>> 
>>>> jwtX7XyphoD9q3VnvxB$
>>>> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
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>>  
> 
>  
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C 
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
> 


----
Ivan Herman, W3C 
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43