RE: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October

Hi,
 
NISO and NIST  are two different organizations. DAISY, an organization incorporated in Switzerland is a member of NISO and it seems that we have full participation rights.
 
Best
George
 
 
From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> 
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2023 8:49 AM
To: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
Cc: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com>; W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
Subject: Re: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October
 
 



On Oct 19, 2023, at 16:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org> > wrote:
 
And another brief FYI: the N in NISO should not be taken too literally. Especially over the past few years, NISO has worked hard to reach out globally. Its conferences now attract a significant number of participants from all over the world, which it encourages by having events at EU- and Asia-centric times, and its Working Groups are definitely global (though admittedly US-heavy).
 
I guess this is very much a side-issue for now, but just for the sake of argumentation: could a French institution (company, University, or let us say, AFNOR, the official French ISO branch) join a NIST Working Group on equal terms?
 
Ivan
 
 



Nowhere near as international as the W3C though. And it's the US representative in ISO so a lot of its work winds up in ISO.--Bill

On 2023-10-18 02:54, Ivan Herman wrote:


On Oct 17, 2023, at 19:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org> > wrote:
If it's of interest, "JATS4R" is the JATS for Reuse Working Group in
NISO (JATS XML is a NISO standard). JATS is not made for rendering;
it's made for machine processing to do what you need it to do. As I
mentioned, journal hosts convert JATS XML (their spec of JATS) to
HTML for online rendering. JATS4R's mission is to develop best
practices for using the very extensive and complex tag suite that is
JATS (which no two publishers use exactly the same way, especially
in the rich metadata that is in the header of every JATS XML file--a
barrier to interoperability). They have Subgroups that focus on
different issues; Tzviya and I recently participated in the
Accessibility Subgroup. Bottom line: this is not about making HTML
work with JATS, it's about making JATS work with HTML. That's
exactly the kind of task the JATS4R WG was created for.
Thanks, good to know.
I think we can at least signal to that group that W3C or, more
specifically, the publishing@w3c activity, is happy to be liaised with
on that work if they think it is worthwhile. I bothers me a bit to see
that work done by a US organization rather than something more
international (eg, ISO), but, well…
Thanks!
Ivan


On 2023-10-17 02:07, Ivan Herman wrote:
Bill Kasdorf wrote on 16/10/2023 18:49:
This is fine by me. After my usual enthusiastic response to your
email, Ivan, I had second thoughts anyway about the viability of
continuing the two I commented on.
I agree with Tzviya's observation that scholarly publishing is bound
to JATS. She's right, JATS4R is the place for any mapping to be
done, not the W3C. And absolutely no subsetting of HTML is
appropriate. Even the new CP/LD standard from NISO specifically uses
the always-current version of HTML with no limitations.
One observation wrt the mapping issue: this is obviously done
(differently) by all the leading journal hosting platforms. They all
require JATS XML (to their specification) as input, and they all
convert it to HTML for online rendering. It would be interesting to
see how much commonality, or lack thereof, is in those conversions.
But it's not likely any group in the W3C would do this.
I do not know that market, its players, etc, but I would not dismiss
to do this at W3C. We certainly have the expertise of both XML and
HTML... But I am not sure whether (a) there is an interest of
harmonization and (b) there are players out there (companies and
individuals) that we could reach out to on that subject. I would
certainly be interested to move this forward.
But that is another matter. I think we all agree that the CG of
today is dead. Sniff...
Ivan
--Bill
On 2023-10-16 12:33, Ivan Herman wrote:
We have time until tomorrow to decide.
At this moment, my personal opinion is that the only CG that I would
consider keeping is the synchronized multimedia one. I know that
Marisa was fairly active for a while and had a draft document in a
decent state. Avneesh & George, how important is this work from an
accessibility perspective?
It is unfortunately true that the others have very little activity
and I don't see any chance to get anything done. See what Tzviya
said about the scholarly html CG; as for the research objects, some
of the core researchers at the Uni of Southampton have left for
other pastures and the focus of the work is now more by NIST.
Ivan
——
Ivan Herman
+33 652 46 00 43
(Written on my iPad. Excuses for brevity and misspellings...)
On 16 Oct 2023, at 14:49, Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com> >
wrote:
I don't think that Scholarly HTML can succeed unless it is mapped
to JATS. So, I don't think it's worth continuing this CG. HTML does
not need to be subset. RDFa etc is too complex for some publishers
and not close enough to JATS for others. I know this sounds
pessimistic, but the scholarly world is bound to JATS. If the JATS4R
committee is interested in a mapping, this can be accomplished, and
I would absolutely make time for it.
Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Principal
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com> 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org <mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 5:13 PM
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org <mailto:ivan@w3.org> >
Cc: W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org <mailto:public-publishing-sc@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: Fwd: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please
review by 17 October
Thanks for this, Ivan.
WRT the Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group,
that absolutely looks important to the work happening now in the
research community, and yes, the new CP/LD format from NISO (not
NIST) is definitely relevant. I can't tell if the work of this CG is
moribund, but they haven't published anything that I can see. Rob
Sanderson, whom I know (or "knew" might be more accurate--he did a
lot of work on IIIF when he was at Getty, now at Yale; he may not
remember me), is listed as an original co-chair but he's not in the
list of participants now. I actually know a lot of people who would
probably be interested in this work, but I don't see any of them in
the participants list. How do you suggest I proceed on this? Reach
out to Rob? Contact the current chair?
Let you do some digging first and then let me know what I should do,
if anything? It could be just that the original task they set out to
address is too amorphous; I can imagine a lot of discussion that
never got anywhere. Maybe having something concrete like CP/LD to
react to would revive the work. (BTW I'm reviewing the edited MS
today of an article I wrote on CP/LD for ISU--the _Information
Services and Use_ journal, which publishes articles on NISO
events--that might be a starting point, though it is very
non-technical, targeted for a general
audience.)
BTW as for the Scholarly HTML CG, I agree that's important and if
Tzviya could be cloned, that might be a solution. I also know people
who _should_ be involved in that. One issue: most scholarly
_publishers_ (note the italics) are focused on JATS XML (or BITS for
books); they then deliver that to their journal host (Atypon, part
of Wiley; Silverchair; HighWire; Ingenta; etc.) which actually does
the work of converting the JATS XML to HTML.
However, as you know I've been talking a lot recently to people in
the research community who are absolutely interested in scholarly
HTML, especially since preprints have become so important. The arXiv
folks, for example, are working on getting accessible HTML for the
millions of preprints they have--almost all of which came to them as
TeX or LaTex and are now provided as PDFs that have lost almost all
the structure that was in the LaTex. They want HTML. Many (actually
I think most) of those articles never go on to formal publication as
a journal article.
That community specifically, as you know, is physics and math. But
there is a lot of movement in science in general to get content
online (fast and in smaller chunks) and they even talk about
breaking free of "the tyranny of the PDF." This is being pushed a
lot by the funders of research. So both of these CGs should be of
interest to those folks, and there are lots of them.
I decided to give you all this info now because you need to answer
yea or nay on keeping the CGs open by Tuesday!
--Bill
On 2023-10-11 02:36, Ivan Herman wrote:
Dear all,
we regularly get these reviews, which is essential in view of the
growing number of CG-s. Here are the CG-s in the list relevant (in
my
view) for the publishing activity. We may want to decide whether
we'd
ask to keep them alive for now or not. Note that if we decide to ask
for keeping a particular CG alive, we should contact the CG (or the
chairs) to see whether they really want to continue or not. I've
attached my own, initial comments.
- CSS Print Community Group
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__> ;


!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD


9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9oOPdkRh$ )  I remember having seen a reference
lately to this work, but I do not remember when and where. Maybe one
of you do. It would obviously important for publications, I presume
many of the concepts could apply to EPUB rendering...
- Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1> 


1eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD


2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u1oTZ-e$ )  I had great hopes for research objects,
which could have radically change scholarly communication. This
research was mostly driven by the U of Southampton but it seemed
that, alas!, this works has wind down.
BillK, this is very close to the NIST work you showed me a while
ago,
I wonder whether there is an interest to revive that CG with that
work
in mind…
- Scholarly HTML Community Group
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm> 


l/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJ


idXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9g3UVj7c$ )  Tzviya, you are assigned as a
chair… I would like to see this group succeed, but it may be just
a dream. The impression is that the scholarly publishing world is
not interested by any such change...
- Synchronized Multimedia for Publications Community Group
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p> 


ub/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5y


JidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9hPqzNkd$ )  This is the one led by
Marisa,
and the idea was to come up with an alternative to SMIL; this was
also
briefly discussed in the EPUB WG. I would hate to see this effort
go, but I believe Marisa has no time for this, and I am not sure
there is a real market interest...
Cheers
Ivan
Begin forwarded message:
From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org <mailto:ij@w3.org> >
Subject: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by
17 October
Date: October 10, 2023 at 19:57:35 GMT+2
To: w3t Team <w3t@w3.org <mailto:w3t@w3.org> >, Shawn Lawton Henry <shawn@w3.org <mailto:shawn@w3.org> >,
Marie-Claire Forgue <mcf@w3.org <mailto:mcf@w3.org> >, Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org <mailto:fd@w3.org> >
Resent-From: w3t@w3.org <mailto:w3t@w3.org> 
Archived-At:
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/mid/881E33FF-903C-419


9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg <mailto:9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg> 


jO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9n7BKYZp$ >
List-Id: <w3t.w3.org>
Message-Id: <881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org <mailto:881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org> >
Team,
(Shawn, see question on WAI-engage)
(Marie-Claire, see question Chapter-related groups) (François, see
question on the Web Media API CG)
From time to time (such as in March [1]) we close inactive Community
Groups. The tool we use to identify candidates recently found 90
inactive CGs:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co> 


mmunity-process/2023Oct/0003.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BH


uWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9nOAyyEV$
If you see any groups in that list that you think should remain
open,
please let us know by 17 October (4pm ET).
SPECIFIC REQUESTS:
* Shawn, in March you wrote "Please leave [WAI-Engage] open until
October 2023 at least." It seems still to be inactive. What do you
advise?
* Marie-Claire, in April you asked that we keep open the Nordic
Chapter Smart City / Web of Things CG and Nordic Web of Data CG.
Both appear to be inactive.  What do you advise?
* François, the Web Media API CG appears to be inactive, but we're
in
the process of renewing the MoU with CTA that encompasses their
work.
What do you advise?
Thank you,
Ian
[1]
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq> 


/2023Mar/0080.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFY


Al-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u898yyH$
-- Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org <mailto:ij@w3.org> >
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Tel: +1 917 450 8783
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