Re: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October

> On Oct 19, 2023, at 16:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org> wrote:
> 
> And another brief FYI: the N in NISO should not be taken too literally. Especially over the past few years, NISO has worked hard to reach out globally. Its conferences now attract a significant number of participants from all over the world, which it encourages by having events at EU- and Asia-centric times, and its Working Groups are definitely global (though admittedly US-heavy).

I guess this is very much a side-issue for now, but just for the sake of argumentation: could a French institution (company, University, or let us say, AFNOR, the official French ISO branch) join a NIST Working Group on equal terms?

Ivan



> Nowhere near as international as the W3C though. And it's the US representative in ISO so a lot of its work winds up in ISO.--Bill
> 
> On 2023-10-18 02:54, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 19:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org> wrote:
>>> If it's of interest, "JATS4R" is the JATS for Reuse Working Group in
>>> NISO (JATS XML is a NISO standard). JATS is not made for rendering;
>>> it's made for machine processing to do what you need it to do. As I
>>> mentioned, journal hosts convert JATS XML (their spec of JATS) to
>>> HTML for online rendering. JATS4R's mission is to develop best
>>> practices for using the very extensive and complex tag suite that is
>>> JATS (which no two publishers use exactly the same way, especially
>>> in the rich metadata that is in the header of every JATS XML file--a
>>> barrier to interoperability). They have Subgroups that focus on
>>> different issues; Tzviya and I recently participated in the
>>> Accessibility Subgroup. Bottom line: this is not about making HTML
>>> work with JATS, it's about making JATS work with HTML. That's
>>> exactly the kind of task the JATS4R WG was created for.
>> Thanks, good to know.
>> I think we can at least signal to that group that W3C or, more
>> specifically, the publishing@w3c activity, is happy to be liaised with
>> on that work if they think it is worthwhile. I bothers me a bit to see
>> that work done by a US organization rather than something more
>> international (eg, ISO), but, well…
>> Thanks!
>> Ivan
>>> On 2023-10-17 02:07, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>> Bill Kasdorf wrote on 16/10/2023 18:49:
>>> This is fine by me. After my usual enthusiastic response to your
>>> email, Ivan, I had second thoughts anyway about the viability of
>>> continuing the two I commented on.
>>> I agree with Tzviya's observation that scholarly publishing is bound
>>> to JATS. She's right, JATS4R is the place for any mapping to be
>>> done, not the W3C. And absolutely no subsetting of HTML is
>>> appropriate. Even the new CP/LD standard from NISO specifically uses
>>> the always-current version of HTML with no limitations.
>>> One observation wrt the mapping issue: this is obviously done
>>> (differently) by all the leading journal hosting platforms. They all
>>> require JATS XML (to their specification) as input, and they all
>>> convert it to HTML for online rendering. It would be interesting to
>>> see how much commonality, or lack thereof, is in those conversions.
>>> But it's not likely any group in the W3C would do this.
>>> I do not know that market, its players, etc, but I would not dismiss
>>> to do this at W3C. We certainly have the expertise of both XML and
>>> HTML... But I am not sure whether (a) there is an interest of
>>> harmonization and (b) there are players out there (companies and
>>> individuals) that we could reach out to on that subject. I would
>>> certainly be interested to move this forward.
>>> But that is another matter. I think we all agree that the CG of
>>> today is dead. Sniff...
>>> Ivan
>>> --Bill
>>> On 2023-10-16 12:33, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>> We have time until tomorrow to decide.
>>> At this moment, my personal opinion is that the only CG that I would
>>> consider keeping is the synchronized multimedia one. I know that
>>> Marisa was fairly active for a while and had a draft document in a
>>> decent state. Avneesh & George, how important is this work from an
>>> accessibility perspective?
>>> It is unfortunately true that the others have very little activity
>>> and I don't see any chance to get anything done. See what Tzviya
>>> said about the scholarly html CG; as for the research objects, some
>>> of the core researchers at the Uni of Southampton have left for
>>> other pastures and the focus of the work is now more by NIST.
>>> Ivan
>>> ——
>>> Ivan Herman
>>> +33 652 46 00 43
>>> (Written on my iPad. Excuses for brevity and misspellings...)
>>> On 16 Oct 2023, at 14:49, Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> I don't think that Scholarly HTML can succeed unless it is mapped
>>> to JATS. So, I don't think it's worth continuing this CG. HTML does
>>> not need to be subset. RDFa etc is too complex for some publishers
>>> and not close enough to JATS for others. I know this sounds
>>> pessimistic, but the scholarly world is bound to JATS. If the JATS4R
>>> committee is interested in a mapping, this can be accomplished, and
>>> I would absolutely make time for it.
>>> Tzviya Siegman
>>> Information Standards Principal
>>> Wiley
>>> 201-748-6884
>>> tsiegman@wiley.com
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 5:13 PM
>>> To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
>>> Cc: W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please
>>> review by 17 October
>>> Thanks for this, Ivan.
>>> WRT the Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group,
>>> that absolutely looks important to the work happening now in the
>>> research community, and yes, the new CP/LD format from NISO (not
>>> NIST) is definitely relevant. I can't tell if the work of this CG is
>>> moribund, but they haven't published anything that I can see. Rob
>>> Sanderson, whom I know (or "knew" might be more accurate--he did a
>>> lot of work on IIIF when he was at Getty, now at Yale; he may not
>>> remember me), is listed as an original co-chair but he's not in the
>>> list of participants now. I actually know a lot of people who would
>>> probably be interested in this work, but I don't see any of them in
>>> the participants list. How do you suggest I proceed on this? Reach
>>> out to Rob? Contact the current chair?
>>> Let you do some digging first and then let me know what I should do,
>>> if anything? It could be just that the original task they set out to
>>> address is too amorphous; I can imagine a lot of discussion that
>>> never got anywhere. Maybe having something concrete like CP/LD to
>>> react to would revive the work. (BTW I'm reviewing the edited MS
>>> today of an article I wrote on CP/LD for ISU--the _Information
>>> Services and Use_ journal, which publishes articles on NISO
>>> events--that might be a starting point, though it is very
>>> non-technical, targeted for a general
>>> audience.)
>>> BTW as for the Scholarly HTML CG, I agree that's important and if
>>> Tzviya could be cloned, that might be a solution. I also know people
>>> who _should_ be involved in that. One issue: most scholarly
>>> _publishers_ (note the italics) are focused on JATS XML (or BITS for
>>> books); they then deliver that to their journal host (Atypon, part
>>> of Wiley; Silverchair; HighWire; Ingenta; etc.) which actually does
>>> the work of converting the JATS XML to HTML.
>>> However, as you know I've been talking a lot recently to people in
>>> the research community who are absolutely interested in scholarly
>>> HTML, especially since preprints have become so important. The arXiv
>>> folks, for example, are working on getting accessible HTML for the
>>> millions of preprints they have--almost all of which came to them as
>>> TeX or LaTex and are now provided as PDFs that have lost almost all
>>> the structure that was in the LaTex. They want HTML. Many (actually
>>> I think most) of those articles never go on to formal publication as
>>> a journal article.
>>> That community specifically, as you know, is physics and math. But
>>> there is a lot of movement in science in general to get content
>>> online (fast and in smaller chunks) and they even talk about
>>> breaking free of "the tyranny of the PDF." This is being pushed a
>>> lot by the funders of research. So both of these CGs should be of
>>> interest to those folks, and there are lots of them.
>>> I decided to give you all this info now because you need to answer
>>> yea or nay on keeping the CGs open by Tuesday!
>>> --Bill
>>> On 2023-10-11 02:36, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>> we regularly get these reviews, which is essential in view of the
>>> growing number of CG-s. Here are the CG-s in the list relevant (in
>>> my
>>> view) for the publishing activity. We may want to decide whether
>>> we'd
>>> ask to keep them alive for now or not. Note that if we decide to ask
>>> for keeping a particular CG alive, we should contact the CG (or the
>>> chairs) to see whether they really want to continue or not. I've
>>> attached my own, initial comments.
>>> - CSS Print Community Group
>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__;
>> !!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD
>>> 9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9oOPdkRh$ )  I remember having seen a reference
>>> lately to this work, but I do not remember when and where. Maybe one
>>> of you do. It would obviously important for publications, I presume
>>> many of the concepts could apply to EPUB rendering...
>>> - Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group
>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1
>> 1eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u1oTZ-e$ )  I had great hopes for research objects,
>>> which could have radically change scholarly communication. This
>>> research was mostly driven by the U of Southampton but it seemed
>>> that, alas!, this works has wind down.
>>> BillK, this is very close to the NIST work you showed me a while
>>> ago,
>>> I wonder whether there is an interest to revive that CG with that
>>> work
>>> in mind…
>>> - Scholarly HTML Community Group
>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm
>> l/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJ
>>> idXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9g3UVj7c$ )  Tzviya, you are assigned as a
>>> chair… I would like to see this group succeed, but it may be just
>>> a dream. The impression is that the scholarly publishing world is
>>> not interested by any such change...
>>> - Synchronized Multimedia for Publications Community Group
>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p
>> ub/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5y
>>> JidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9hPqzNkd$ )  This is the one led by
>>> Marisa,
>>> and the idea was to come up with an alternative to SMIL; this was
>>> also
>>> briefly discussed in the EPUB WG. I would hate to see this effort
>>> go, but I believe Marisa has no time for this, and I am not sure
>>> there is a real market interest...
>>> Cheers
>>> Ivan
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by
>>> 17 October
>>> Date: October 10, 2023 at 19:57:35 GMT+2
>>> To: w3t Team <w3t@w3.org>, Shawn Lawton Henry <shawn@w3.org>,
>>> Marie-Claire Forgue <mcf@w3.org>, Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
>>> Resent-From: w3t@w3.org
>>> Archived-At:
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/mid/881E33FF-903C-419
>> 9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg
>>> jO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9n7BKYZp$ >
>>> List-Id: <w3t.w3.org>
>>> Message-Id: <881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org>
>>> Team,
>>> (Shawn, see question on WAI-engage)
>>> (Marie-Claire, see question Chapter-related groups) (François, see
>>> question on the Web Media API CG)
>>> From time to time (such as in March [1]) we close inactive Community
>>> Groups. The tool we use to identify candidates recently found 90
>>> inactive CGs:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co
>> mmunity-process/2023Oct/0003.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BH
>>> uWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9nOAyyEV$
>>> If you see any groups in that list that you think should remain
>>> open,
>>> please let us know by 17 October (4pm ET).
>>> SPECIFIC REQUESTS:
>>> * Shawn, in March you wrote "Please leave [WAI-Engage] open until
>>> October 2023 at least." It seems still to be inactive. What do you
>>> advise?
>>> * Marie-Claire, in April you asked that we keep open the Nordic
>>> Chapter Smart City / Web of Things CG and Nordic Web of Data CG.
>>> Both appear to be inactive.  What do you advise?
>>> * François, the Web Media API CG appears to be inactive, but we're
>>> in
>>> the process of renewing the MoU with CTA that encompasses their
>>> work.
>>> What do you advise?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Ian
>>> [1]
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq
>> /2023Mar/0080.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFY
>>> Al-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u898yyH$
>>> -- Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/__;!!N11
>> eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9shFXDMQ$
>>> Tel: +1 917 450 8783
>>> ----
>>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>>> Home:
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>>> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
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> 


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Ivan Herman, W3C 
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43