Re: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October

And another brief FYI: the N in NISO should not be taken too literally. 
Especially over the past few years, NISO has worked hard to reach out 
globally. Its conferences now attract a significant number of 
participants from all over the world, which it encourages by having 
events at EU- and Asia-centric times, and its Working Groups are 
definitely global (though admittedly US-heavy). Nowhere near as 
international as the W3C though. And it's the US representative in ISO 
so a lot of its work winds up in ISO.--Bill

On 2023-10-18 02:54, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 19:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org> wrote:
>> 
>> If it's of interest, "JATS4R" is the JATS for Reuse Working Group in
>> NISO (JATS XML is a NISO standard). JATS is not made for rendering;
>> it's made for machine processing to do what you need it to do. As I
>> mentioned, journal hosts convert JATS XML (their spec of JATS) to
>> HTML for online rendering. JATS4R's mission is to develop best
>> practices for using the very extensive and complex tag suite that is
>> JATS (which no two publishers use exactly the same way, especially
>> in the rich metadata that is in the header of every JATS XML file--a
>> barrier to interoperability). They have Subgroups that focus on
>> different issues; Tzviya and I recently participated in the
>> Accessibility Subgroup. Bottom line: this is not about making HTML
>> work with JATS, it's about making JATS work with HTML. That's
>> exactly the kind of task the JATS4R WG was created for.
> 
> Thanks, good to know.
> 
> I think we can at least signal to that group that W3C or, more
> specifically, the publishing@w3c activity, is happy to be liaised with
> on that work if they think it is worthwhile. I bothers me a bit to see
> that work done by a US organization rather than something more
> international (eg, ISO), but, well…
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ivan
> 
>> On 2023-10-17 02:07, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> Bill Kasdorf wrote on 16/10/2023 18:49:
>> This is fine by me. After my usual enthusiastic response to your
>> email, Ivan, I had second thoughts anyway about the viability of
>> continuing the two I commented on.
>> I agree with Tzviya's observation that scholarly publishing is bound
>> to JATS. She's right, JATS4R is the place for any mapping to be
>> done, not the W3C. And absolutely no subsetting of HTML is
>> appropriate. Even the new CP/LD standard from NISO specifically uses
>> the always-current version of HTML with no limitations.
>> One observation wrt the mapping issue: this is obviously done
>> (differently) by all the leading journal hosting platforms. They all
>> require JATS XML (to their specification) as input, and they all
>> convert it to HTML for online rendering. It would be interesting to
>> see how much commonality, or lack thereof, is in those conversions.
>> But it's not likely any group in the W3C would do this.
>> I do not know that market, its players, etc, but I would not dismiss
>> to do this at W3C. We certainly have the expertise of both XML and
>> HTML... But I am not sure whether (a) there is an interest of
>> harmonization and (b) there are players out there (companies and
>> individuals) that we could reach out to on that subject. I would
>> certainly be interested to move this forward.
>> But that is another matter. I think we all agree that the CG of
>> today is dead. Sniff...
>> Ivan
>> --Bill
>> On 2023-10-16 12:33, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> We have time until tomorrow to decide.
>> At this moment, my personal opinion is that the only CG that I would
>> consider keeping is the synchronized multimedia one. I know that
>> Marisa was fairly active for a while and had a draft document in a
>> decent state. Avneesh & George, how important is this work from an
>> accessibility perspective?
>> It is unfortunately true that the others have very little activity
>> and I don't see any chance to get anything done. See what Tzviya
>> said about the scholarly html CG; as for the research objects, some
>> of the core researchers at the Uni of Southampton have left for
>> other pastures and the focus of the work is now more by NIST.
>> Ivan
>> ——
>> Ivan Herman
>> +33 652 46 00 43
>> (Written on my iPad. Excuses for brevity and misspellings...)
>> On 16 Oct 2023, at 14:49, Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com>
>> wrote:
>> I don't think that Scholarly HTML can succeed unless it is mapped
>> to JATS. So, I don't think it's worth continuing this CG. HTML does
>> not need to be subset. RDFa etc is too complex for some publishers
>> and not close enough to JATS for others. I know this sounds
>> pessimistic, but the scholarly world is bound to JATS. If the JATS4R
>> committee is interested in a mapping, this can be accomplished, and
>> I would absolutely make time for it.
>> Tzviya Siegman
>> Information Standards Principal
>> Wiley
>> 201-748-6884
>> tsiegman@wiley.com
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 5:13 PM
>> To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
>> Cc: W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please
>> review by 17 October
>> Thanks for this, Ivan.
>> WRT the Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group,
>> that absolutely looks important to the work happening now in the
>> research community, and yes, the new CP/LD format from NISO (not
>> NIST) is definitely relevant. I can't tell if the work of this CG is
>> moribund, but they haven't published anything that I can see. Rob
>> Sanderson, whom I know (or "knew" might be more accurate--he did a
>> lot of work on IIIF when he was at Getty, now at Yale; he may not
>> remember me), is listed as an original co-chair but he's not in the
>> list of participants now. I actually know a lot of people who would
>> probably be interested in this work, but I don't see any of them in
>> the participants list. How do you suggest I proceed on this? Reach
>> out to Rob? Contact the current chair?
>> Let you do some digging first and then let me know what I should do,
>> if anything? It could be just that the original task they set out to
>> address is too amorphous; I can imagine a lot of discussion that
>> never got anywhere. Maybe having something concrete like CP/LD to
>> react to would revive the work. (BTW I'm reviewing the edited MS
>> today of an article I wrote on CP/LD for ISU--the _Information
>> Services and Use_ journal, which publishes articles on NISO
>> events--that might be a starting point, though it is very
>> non-technical, targeted for a general
>> audience.)
>> BTW as for the Scholarly HTML CG, I agree that's important and if
>> Tzviya could be cloned, that might be a solution. I also know people
>> who _should_ be involved in that. One issue: most scholarly
>> _publishers_ (note the italics) are focused on JATS XML (or BITS for
>> books); they then deliver that to their journal host (Atypon, part
>> of Wiley; Silverchair; HighWire; Ingenta; etc.) which actually does
>> the work of converting the JATS XML to HTML.
>> However, as you know I've been talking a lot recently to people in
>> the research community who are absolutely interested in scholarly
>> HTML, especially since preprints have become so important. The arXiv
>> folks, for example, are working on getting accessible HTML for the
>> millions of preprints they have--almost all of which came to them as
>> TeX or LaTex and are now provided as PDFs that have lost almost all
>> the structure that was in the LaTex. They want HTML. Many (actually
>> I think most) of those articles never go on to formal publication as
>> a journal article.
>> That community specifically, as you know, is physics and math. But
>> there is a lot of movement in science in general to get content
>> online (fast and in smaller chunks) and they even talk about
>> breaking free of "the tyranny of the PDF." This is being pushed a
>> lot by the funders of research. So both of these CGs should be of
>> interest to those folks, and there are lots of them.
>> I decided to give you all this info now because you need to answer
>> yea or nay on keeping the CGs open by Tuesday!
>> --Bill
>> On 2023-10-11 02:36, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> we regularly get these reviews, which is essential in view of the
>> growing number of CG-s. Here are the CG-s in the list relevant (in
>> my
>> view) for the publishing activity. We may want to decide whether
>> we'd
>> ask to keep them alive for now or not. Note that if we decide to ask
>> for keeping a particular CG alive, we should contact the CG (or the
>> chairs) to see whether they really want to continue or not. I've
>> attached my own, initial comments.
>> - CSS Print Community Group
>> 
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__;
>> 
> !!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD
>> 9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9oOPdkRh$ )  I remember having seen a reference
>> lately to this work, but I do not remember when and where. Maybe one
>> of you do. It would obviously important for publications, I presume
>> many of the concepts could apply to EPUB rendering...
>> - Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group
>> 
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1
>> 
> 1eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u1oTZ-e$ )  I had great hopes for research objects,
>> which could have radically change scholarly communication. This
>> research was mostly driven by the U of Southampton but it seemed
>> that, alas!, this works has wind down.
>> BillK, this is very close to the NIST work you showed me a while
>> ago,
>> I wonder whether there is an interest to revive that CG with that
>> work
>> in mind…
>> - Scholarly HTML Community Group
>> 
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm
>> 
> l/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJ
>> idXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9g3UVj7c$ )  Tzviya, you are assigned as a
>> chair… I would like to see this group succeed, but it may be just
>> a dream. The impression is that the scholarly publishing world is
>> not interested by any such change...
>> - Synchronized Multimedia for Publications Community Group
>> 
> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p
>> 
> ub/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5y
>> JidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9hPqzNkd$ )  This is the one led by
>> Marisa,
>> and the idea was to come up with an alternative to SMIL; this was
>> also
>> briefly discussed in the EPUB WG. I would hate to see this effort
>> go, but I believe Marisa has no time for this, and I am not sure
>> there is a real market interest...
>> Cheers
>> Ivan
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>> Subject: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by
>> 17 October
>> Date: October 10, 2023 at 19:57:35 GMT+2
>> To: w3t Team <w3t@w3.org>, Shawn Lawton Henry <shawn@w3.org>,
>> Marie-Claire Forgue <mcf@w3.org>, Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
>> Resent-From: w3t@w3.org
>> Archived-At:
>> 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/mid/881E33FF-903C-419
>> 
> 9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg
>> jO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9n7BKYZp$ >
>> List-Id: <w3t.w3.org>
>> Message-Id: <881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org>
>> Team,
>> (Shawn, see question on WAI-engage)
>> (Marie-Claire, see question Chapter-related groups) (François, see
>> question on the Web Media API CG)
>> From time to time (such as in March [1]) we close inactive Community
>> Groups. The tool we use to identify candidates recently found 90
>> inactive CGs:
>> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co
>> 
> mmunity-process/2023Oct/0003.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BH
>> uWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9nOAyyEV$
>> If you see any groups in that list that you think should remain
>> open,
>> please let us know by 17 October (4pm ET).
>> SPECIFIC REQUESTS:
>> * Shawn, in March you wrote "Please leave [WAI-Engage] open until
>> October 2023 at least." It seems still to be inactive. What do you
>> advise?
>> * Marie-Claire, in April you asked that we keep open the Nordic
>> Chapter Smart City / Web of Things CG and Nordic Web of Data CG.
>> Both appear to be inactive.  What do you advise?
>> * François, the Web Media API CG appears to be inactive, but we're
>> in
>> the process of renewing the MoU with CTA that encompasses their
>> work.
>> What do you advise?
>> Thank you,
>> Ian
>> [1]
>> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq
>> 
> /2023Mar/0080.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFY
>> Al-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u898yyH$
>> -- Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/__;!!N11
>> 
> eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9shFXDMQ$
>> Tel: +1 917 450 8783
>> ----
>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>> Home:
>> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/__;!!N11eV2i
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>> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
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Received on Thursday, 19 October 2023 14:19:08 UTC