Re: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review by 17 October

If it's of interest, "JATS4R" is the JATS for Reuse Working Group in 
NISO (JATS XML is a NISO standard). JATS is not made for rendering; it's 
made for machine processing to do what you need it to do. As I 
mentioned, journal hosts convert JATS XML (their spec of JATS) to HTML 
for online rendering. JATS4R's mission is to develop best practices for 
using the very extensive and complex tag suite that is JATS (which no 
two publishers use exactly the same way, especially in the rich metadata 
that is in the header of every JATS XML file--a barrier to 
interoperability). They have Subgroups that focus on different issues; 
Tzviya and I recently participated in the Accessibility Subgroup. Bottom 
line: this is not about making HTML work with JATS, it's about making 
JATS work with HTML. That's exactly the kind of task the JATS4R WG was 
created for.

On 2023-10-17 02:07, Ivan Herman wrote:
> Bill Kasdorf wrote on 16/10/2023 18:49:
>> This is fine by me. After my usual enthusiastic response to your 
>> email, Ivan, I had second thoughts anyway about the viability of 
>> continuing the two I commented on.
>> 
>> I agree with Tzviya's observation that scholarly publishing is bound 
>> to JATS. She's right, JATS4R is the place for any mapping to be done, 
>> not the W3C. And absolutely no subsetting of HTML is appropriate. Even 
>> the new CP/LD standard from NISO specifically uses the always-current 
>> version of HTML with no limitations.
>> 
>> One observation wrt the mapping issue: this is obviously done 
>> (differently) by all the leading journal hosting platforms. They all 
>> require JATS XML (to their specification) as input, and they all 
>> convert it to HTML for online rendering. It would be interesting to 
>> see how much commonality, or lack thereof, is in those conversions. 
>> But it's not likely any group in the W3C would do this.
> I do not know that market, its players, etc, but I would not dismiss to 
> do this at W3C. We certainly have the expertise of both XML and HTML... 
> But I am not sure whether (a) there is an interest of harmonization and 
> (b) there are players out there (companies and individuals) that we 
> could reach out to on that subject. I would certainly be interested to 
> move this forward.
> 
> But that is another matter. I think we all agree that the CG of today 
> is dead. Sniff...
> 
> Ivan
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> --Bill
>> 
>> On 2023-10-16 12:33, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>> We have time until tomorrow to decide.
>>> 
>>> At this moment, my personal opinion is that the only CG that I would 
>>> consider keeping is the synchronized multimedia one. I know that 
>>> Marisa was fairly active for a while and had a draft document in a 
>>> decent state. Avneesh & George, how important is this work from an 
>>> accessibility perspective?
>>> 
>>> It is unfortunately true that the others have very little activity 
>>> and I don't see any chance to get anything done. See what Tzviya said 
>>> about the scholarly html CG; as for the research objects, some of the 
>>> core researchers at the Uni of Southampton have left for other 
>>> pastures and the focus of the work is now more by NIST.
>>> 
>>> Ivan
>>> 
>>> ——
>>> Ivan Herman
>>> +33 652 46 00 43
>>> 
>>> (Written on my iPad. Excuses for brevity and misspellings...)
>>> 
>>>> On 16 Oct 2023, at 14:49, Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think that Scholarly HTML can succeed unless it is mapped 
>>>> to JATS. So, I don't think it's worth continuing this CG. HTML does 
>>>> not need to be subset. RDFa etc is too complex for some publishers 
>>>> and not close enough to JATS for others. I know this sounds 
>>>> pessimistic, but the scholarly world is bound to JATS. If the JATS4R 
>>>> committee is interested in a mapping, this can be accomplished, and 
>>>> I would absolutely make time for it.
>>>> 
>>>> Tzviya Siegman
>>>> Information Standards Principal
>>>> Wiley
>>>> 201-748-6884
>>>> tsiegman@wiley.com
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 5:13 PM
>>>> To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
>>>> Cc: W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc@w3.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please 
>>>> review by 17 October
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for this, Ivan.
>>>> 
>>>> WRT the Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group, 
>>>> that absolutely looks important to the work happening now in the 
>>>> research community, and yes, the new CP/LD format from NISO (not 
>>>> NIST) is definitely relevant. I can't tell if the work of this CG is 
>>>> moribund, but they haven't published anything that I can see. Rob 
>>>> Sanderson, whom I know (or "knew" might be more accurate--he did a 
>>>> lot of work on IIIF when he was at Getty, now at Yale; he may not 
>>>> remember me), is listed as an original co-chair but he's not in the 
>>>> list of participants now. I actually know a lot of people who would 
>>>> probably be interested in this work, but I don't see any of them in 
>>>> the participants list. How do you suggest I proceed on this? Reach 
>>>> out to Rob? Contact the current chair?
>>>> Let you do some digging first and then let me know what I should do, 
>>>> if anything? It could be just that the original task they set out to 
>>>> address is too amorphous; I can imagine a lot of discussion that 
>>>> never got anywhere. Maybe having something concrete like CP/LD to 
>>>> react to would revive the work. (BTW I'm reviewing the edited MS 
>>>> today of an article I wrote on CP/LD for ISU--the _Information 
>>>> Services and Use_ journal, which publishes articles on NISO 
>>>> events--that might be a starting point, though it is very 
>>>> non-technical, targeted for a general
>>>> audience.)
>>>> 
>>>> BTW as for the Scholarly HTML CG, I agree that's important and if 
>>>> Tzviya could be cloned, that might be a solution. I also know people 
>>>> who _should_ be involved in that. One issue: most scholarly 
>>>> _publishers_ (note the italics) are focused on JATS XML (or BITS for 
>>>> books); they then deliver that to their journal host (Atypon, part 
>>>> of Wiley; Silverchair; HighWire; Ingenta; etc.) which actually does 
>>>> the work of converting the JATS XML to HTML.
>>>> 
>>>> However, as you know I've been talking a lot recently to people in 
>>>> the research community who are absolutely interested in scholarly 
>>>> HTML, especially since preprints have become so important. The arXiv 
>>>> folks, for example, are working on getting accessible HTML for the 
>>>> millions of preprints they have--almost all of which came to them as 
>>>> TeX or LaTex and are now provided as PDFs that have lost almost all 
>>>> the structure that was in the LaTex. They want HTML. Many (actually 
>>>> I think most) of those articles never go on to formal publication as 
>>>> a journal article.
>>>> That community specifically, as you know, is physics and math. But 
>>>> there is a lot of movement in science in general to get content 
>>>> online (fast and in smaller chunks) and they even talk about 
>>>> breaking free of "the tyranny of the PDF." This is being pushed a 
>>>> lot by the funders of research. So both of these CGs should be of 
>>>> interest to those folks, and there are lots of them.
>>>> 
>>>> I decided to give you all this info now because you need to answer 
>>>> yea or nay on keeping the CGs open by Tuesday!
>>>> 
>>>> --Bill
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2023-10-11 02:36, Ivan Herman wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> we regularly get these reviews, which is essential in view of the
>>>>> growing number of CG-s. Here are the CG-s in the list relevant (in 
>>>>> my
>>>>> view) for the publishing activity. We may want to decide whether 
>>>>> we'd
>>>>> ask to keep them alive for now or not. Note that if we decide to 
>>>>> ask
>>>>> for keeping a particular CG alive, we should contact the CG (or the
>>>>> chairs) to see whether they really want to continue or not. I've
>>>>> attached my own, initial comments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - CSS Print Community Group
>>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/cssprint/__;
>>>>> !!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD
>>>>> 9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9oOPdkRh$ )  I remember having seen a reference
>>>>> lately to this work, but I do not remember when and where. Maybe 
>>>>> one of you do. It would obviously important for publications, I 
>>>>> presume many of the concepts could apply to EPUB rendering...
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Research Object for Scholarly Communication Community Group
>>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/rosc/__;!!N1
>>>>> 1eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>>>>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u1oTZ-e$ )  I had great hopes for research 
>>>>> objects,
>>>>> which could have radically change scholarly communication. This 
>>>>> research was mostly driven by the U of Southampton but it seemed 
>>>>> that, alas!, this works has wind down.
>>>>> BillK, this is very close to the NIST work you showed me a while 
>>>>> ago,
>>>>> I wonder whether there is an interest to revive that CG with that 
>>>>> work
>>>>> in mind…
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Scholarly HTML Community Group
>>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtm
>>>>> l/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJ
>>>>> idXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9g3UVj7c$ )  Tzviya, you are assigned as a
>>>>> chair… I would like to see this group succeed, but it may be just a 
>>>>> dream. The impression is that the scholarly publishing world is not 
>>>>> interested by any such change...
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Synchronized Multimedia for Publications Community Group
>>>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-p
>>>>> ub/__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5y
>>>>> JidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9hPqzNkd$ )  This is the one led by 
>>>>> Marisa,
>>>>> and the idea was to come up with an alternative to SMIL; this was 
>>>>> also
>>>>> briefly discussed in the EPUB WG. I would hate to see this effort 
>>>>> go, but I believe Marisa has no time for this, and I am not sure 
>>>>> there is a real market interest...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ivan
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>> From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Subject: Preparing to close some Community Groups; please review 
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> 17 October
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Date: October 10, 2023 at 19:57:35 GMT+2
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To: w3t Team <w3t@w3.org>, Shawn Lawton Henry <shawn@w3.org>,
>>>>>> Marie-Claire Forgue <mcf@w3.org>, Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Resent-From: w3t@w3.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Archived-At:
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/mid/881E33FF-903C-419
>>>>>> 9-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvgg
>>>>>> jO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9n7BKYZp$ >
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> List-Id: <w3t.w3.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Message-Id: <881E33FF-903C-4199-A2FD-3920E54E3687@w3.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Team,
>>>>>> (Shawn, see question on WAI-engage)
>>>>>> (Marie-Claire, see question Chapter-related groups) (François, see
>>>>>> question on the Web Media API CG)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From time to time (such as in March [1]) we close inactive 
>>>>>> Community
>>>>>> Groups. The tool we use to identify candidates recently found 90
>>>>>> inactive CGs:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-co
>>>>> mmunity-process/2023Oct/0003.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BH
>>>>> uWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9nOAyyEV$
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you see any groups in that list that you think should remain 
>>>>>> open,
>>>>>> please let us know by 17 October (4pm ET).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SPECIFIC REQUESTS:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * Shawn, in March you wrote "Please leave [WAI-Engage] open until
>>>>>> October 2023 at least." It seems still to be inactive. What do you
>>>>>> advise?
>>>>>> * Marie-Claire, in April you asked that we keep open the Nordic
>>>>>> Chapter Smart City / Web of Things CG and Nordic Web of Data CG.
>>>>>> Both appear to be inactive.  What do you advise?
>>>>>> * François, the Web Media API CG appears to be inactive, but we're 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the process of renewing the MoU with CTA that encompasses their 
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> What do you advise?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/sysreq
>>>>>> /2023Mar/0080.html__;!!N11eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFY
>>>>>> Al-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9u898yyH$
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/__;!!N11
>>>>>> eV2iwtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD
>>>>>> 2fQvEjwtX7XyphoD9shFXDMQ$
>>>>>> Tel: +1 917 450 8783
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>>>>> Home:
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/__;!!N11eV2i
>>>>> wtfs!q9_N0G0Tm9zLqscnA3BHuWNvggjO2LqtFYAl-rT68w4TLARc5yJidXjD9-VD2fQvE
>>>>> jwtX7XyphoD9q3VnvxB$
>>>>> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
>>>> 
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Received on Tuesday, 17 October 2023 17:19:14 UTC