Re: Can a publication change over time?

Yes, it seems absolutely necessary that some time stamping drives the updating mechanism.
This timestamp would have to be stored somewhere (in the manifest, or in each updatable bloc?), enabling the possibility to determine if and when the resources have been lastly updated.

Best,
Luc


De : Garth Conboy <garth@google.com<mailto:garth@google.com>>
Date : mercredi 26 juillet 2017 à 19:20
À : Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>>
Cc : AUDRAIN LUC AUDRAIN LUC <laudrain@hachette-livre.fr<mailto:laudrain@hachette-livre.fr>>, Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org<mailto:laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Objet : Re: Can a publication change over time?

Hi Luc,

Perhaps!  :-)

Yes, initial values.  But, does there was to be a way of determining if these primary resources were changed since publication (or preventing same)?  Though, your vote (as a "real" publisher) counts way more than mine!

Best,
   Garth


On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>> wrote:
I like this idea Luc, but want to point out that we also need to keep in mind that there may also be metadata stating that a specific version of this publication may have been audited by a third party and “certified” to be accessible and now that this publication has been modified those sections changed may not comply with this certification.  This does raise the point that if a publication that was certified to be accessible and hence modified that would nullify the certification and that metadata should be removed or modified in some way to reflect this change.  This is probably something that the accessibility Task Force will need to take up.

Thanks
EOM

Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>
Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301<tel:(650)%20600-3301>



On Jul 26, 2017, at 9:45 AM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr<mailto:LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>> wrote:

Could it be raised to +1 if we say that in « primary  resources », all changeable zones must have initial values at pub date?
Luc

De : Garth Conboy <garth@google.com<mailto:garth@google.com>>
Date : mercredi 26 juillet 2017 à 17:00
À : AUDRAIN LUC AUDRAIN LUC <laudrain@hachette-livre.fr<mailto:laudrain@hachette-livre.fr>>
Cc : Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org<mailto:laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Objet : Re: Can a publication change over time?

+0.75 Luc.

I think we'll want to be able to define a set of "primary resources" that are fixed at time of "publication".  Perhaps with some way they are changeable by the author -- but maybe resulting in a new "publication" (though, I likely could be talked out of that latter part).

Best,
   Garth

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 3:11 AM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr<mailto:LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>> wrote:
I think that a WP can have beyond its collection of resources, a programmatically « essence ».

In fact, as I said in the Definition thread, resources of a WP can be also be programs/algoritihm written and curated by the creator.
These programs may update the publication !

Use cases :
- the UA may upload updates of the practical information of a POI in a travel guide WP. The practical information included at publication date are then modified in the WP document.
- the UA may load a new chapter in the WP when it is made available by the author

This is still for me the same WP.

Luc

De : Garth Conboy <garth@google.com<mailto:garth@google.com>>
Date : mardi 25 juillet 2017 à 23:19
À : Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org<mailto:laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>>
Cc : Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Objet : Re: Can a publication change over time?
Renvoyer - De : <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Renvoyer - Date : mardi 25 juillet 2017 à 23:19

I made my comment on this topic on the definition thread -- likely matching the opinion of many of the "traditional" publishers in our midst.

To me publishing a publication on a publication date, is meaningless if the "primary resources" change thereafter.

Best,
   Garth

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org<mailto:laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>> wrote:
> It’s about a publication that is changing “on the fly” (with the understanding of the publisher/author, of course)

This is where thing may get muddy on the Web. In many cases, nothing will notify an author that a Web resource he has included in his Web Publication has changed. The Web is not a CMS. It can change suddenly because a picture embedded in the resource has been modified, because a CSS used by the resource has been updated (I use indirect modifications, but direct modifications of an html resource are even more obvious). On the Web resources are shared, control is shared, an author can't control the detail of all the resources he's using in a Web Publication.

So when you say "the understanding" Leonard, I understand "the understanding that a publication can change on the fly without his knowledge". It is what you mean?

Laurent


Le 25 juil. 2017 à 22:14, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> a écrit :

Signatures are something that I see as more relevant when we get to Packaged WP…

But coming back here about change – this is *not* about versions/editions/revisions.  It’s about a publication that is changing “on the fly” (with the understanding of the publisher/author, of course).

Leonard

From: "Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com<mailto:mteixeira@wwnorton.com>>
Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:47 PM
To: "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>, Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com<mailto:hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Can a publication change over time?

Yes, Git is exactly the source of inspiration. Evan Yamanishi, here at Norton and also a PWG member, has helped us implement a digital production workflow along these lines.

The digital signature point is very interesting. It's important that we keep archival (i.e. long-term preservation) needs in mind, as our group outlined [1] during the F2F meeting in NYC (the details of that use case and its scope within WP/PWP are TBD, as we haven't discussed it at all yet).

[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0/edit?usp=sharing<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4c07643a6ad043ec105808d4d395fa54%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636366088492276050&sdata=DDcaTS2Y74cGjaKhhbIq3tqTgIiWBvXT2k6yvkYXA%2FU%3D&reserved=0>


From: "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>
Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:31 PM
To: "Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com<mailto:mteixeira@wwnorton.com>>, Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com<mailto:hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Can a publication change over time?

If authors can attach a digital signature, this would provide a strong means of verifying that no changes have occurred to the version that the user obtains. Perhaps what is needed is conceptually similar to what we have in Git: I can give a specific revision a name (i.e., a tag), then digitally sign it.

From: Teixeira, Mateus [mailto:mteixeira@wwnorton.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 3:21 PM
To: Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com<mailto:hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>>; Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Can a publication change over time?

I agree that from a publishing and distribution perspective—particularly educational publishing—WP support for continuous updates will be critical.

Publishers tend to view traditional (i.e., print) publications similar to how developers view releases and snapshots, except we call them printings and editions. Publications are indeed "published" at a certain time and with a certain robustness and completeness of content, but this content can evolve continuously throughout the publication's lifespan. Even editions can be viewed as sequential, major versions of a publication. In fact, this is how we at Norton approach ebook versioning in EPUB.

That said, I agree with Hadrien's thoughts. I also add that the (traditional) publishing use case for continuous updates will more likely resemble coherent "releases" than minor incremental updates, at least until our digital distribution model evolves so drastically as to make such minor updates easy to implement and to push to the world. Perhaps a way to approach this in WP is a recognition that WPs can be updated, but must be done so with a specific version tagged to it—there are others in the WG who could word this more eloquently and technically than I can.


From: Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com<mailto:hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>>
Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:06 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Can a publication change over time?
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:05 PM

Since we're on the Web, I think it's safe to say that everything can and will be updated over time. No matter what we say and write, this won't change the way things work on the Web.

During the call, someone said (Garth maybe?) that the main concern is tied to the primary resources of a publication.

I think these primary resources will also be updated and change over time, here are a few different examples:

 *   it's fairly common for technical books to be updated over time (some publishers have beta books, but with platforms like Gitbook you can expect even more regular updates)
 *   serialized fiction (comics, manga but also general fiction) could be distributed as a WP per fragment/chapter, but it might be easier for the reader to simply point them to a WP that will be updated over time with more content
 *   Librivox audiobook releases are produced by a community over time, it would make perfect sense to have a WP for the complete publication, with new updates as the community releases new audio files
 *   Jiminy Panoz provided a use case in the Github issue about remixing<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwpub%2Fissues%2F8%23issuecomment-317539201&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C7091842f843b485c0f4508d4d3925621%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636366072842086747&sdata=4zRCcwP7BWV8AVZNZAgy7mxrNbdtAaORTW76ZBOosOg%3D&reserved=0> that is also relevant here, since a publisher could dynamically provide specific part of a publication (author bio, highlighted titles, titles from the same author etc.)

These are all examples where the ability to update a WP really shines and adds value compared to EPUB.

Hadrien

2017-07-25 19:45 GMT+02:00 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>:
There seems to have been a good discussion on this at the meeting that I missed ☹.   And I didn’t see a specific resolution to the topic, so I figured I’d pull it out here for further review.

In my view, Garth said it best (copied from the minutes):
<garth> Publishing: defining the parts that won’t change over time.

This means that a WP can contain resources that are a mix of “static” (unchanging) content and “dynamic” (changing) content.  I have two favorite examples (aka real world use cases) of this:

 1.  A textbook where the quizzes can be changed by the professor for their specific class
 2.  A data dashboard that is able to display the current data


Does anyone believe differently about a WP and its ability to contain “dynamic” content?

Leonard
P.S. I am specifically *NOT* talking about PWP here – just WP.

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