Re: Can a publication change over time?

Hi Luc,

Perhaps!  :-)

Yes, initial values.  But, does there was to be a way of determining if
these primary resources were changed since publication (or preventing
same)?  Though, your vote (as a "real" publisher) counts way more than mine!

Best,
   Garth


On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org>
wrote:

> I like this idea Luc, but want to point out that we also need to keep in
> mind that there may also be metadata stating that a specific version of
> this publication may have been audited by a third party and “certified” to
> be accessible and now that this publication has been modified those
> sections changed may not comply with this certification.  This does raise
> the point that if a publication that was certified to be accessible and
> hence modified that would nullify the certification and that metadata
> should be removed or modified in some way to reflect this change.  This is
> probably something that the accessibility Task Force will need to take up.
>
> Thanks
> EOM
>
> Charles LaPierre
> Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
> E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org
> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
> Skype: charles_lapierre
> Phone: 650-600-3301 <(650)%20600-3301>
>
>
>
> On Jul 26, 2017, at 9:45 AM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>
> wrote:
>
> Could it be raised to +1 if we say that in « primary  resources », all
> changeable zones must have initial values at pub date?
> Luc
>
> De : Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>
> Date : mercredi 26 juillet 2017 à 17:00
> À : AUDRAIN LUC AUDRAIN LUC <laudrain@hachette-livre.fr>
> Cc : Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>, Leonard Rosenthol <
> lrosenth@adobe.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> Objet : Re: Can a publication change over time?
>
> +0.75 Luc.
>
> I think we'll want to be able to define a set of "primary resources" that
> are fixed at time of "publication".  Perhaps with some way they are
> changeable by the author -- but maybe resulting in a new "publication"
> (though, I likely could be talked out of that latter part).
>
> Best,
>    Garth
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 3:11 AM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>
> wrote:
>
>> I think that a WP can have beyond its collection of resources, a
>> programmatically « essence ».
>>
>> In fact, as I said in the Definition thread, resources of a WP can be
>> also be programs/algoritihm written and curated by the creator.
>> These programs may update the publication !
>>
>> Use cases :
>> - the UA may upload updates of the practical information of a POI in a
>> travel guide WP. The practical information included at publication date are
>> then modified in the WP document.
>> - the UA may load a new chapter in the WP when it is made available by
>> the author
>>
>> This is still for me the same WP.
>>
>> Luc
>>
>> De : Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>
>> Date : mardi 25 juillet 2017 à 23:19
>> À : Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>
>> Cc : Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <
>> public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>> Objet : Re: Can a publication change over time?
>> Renvoyer - De : <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>> Renvoyer - Date : mardi 25 juillet 2017 à 23:19
>>
>> I made my comment on this topic on the definition thread -- likely
>> matching the opinion of many of the "traditional" publishers in our midst.
>>
>> To me publishing a publication on a publication date, is meaningless if
>> the "primary resources" change thereafter.
>>
>> Best,
>>    Garth
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Laurent Le Meur <
>> laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > It’s about a publication that is changing “on the fly” (with the
>>> understanding of the publisher/author, of course)
>>>
>>> This is where thing may get muddy on the Web. In many cases, nothing
>>> will notify an author that a Web resource he has included in his Web
>>> Publication has changed. *The Web is not a CMS*. It can change suddenly
>>> because a picture embedded in the resource has been modified, because a CSS
>>> used by the resource has been updated (I use indirect modifications, but
>>> direct modifications of an html resource are even more obvious). On the Web
>>> resources are shared, control is shared, an author can't control the detail
>>> of all the resources he's using in a Web Publication.
>>>
>>> So when you say "the understanding" Leonard, I understand "the
>>> understanding that a publication can change on the fly without his
>>> knowledge". It is what you mean?
>>>
>>> Laurent
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 25 juil. 2017 à 22:14, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> a
>>> écrit :
>>>
>>> Signatures are something that I see as more relevant when we get to
>>> Packaged WP…
>>>
>>> But coming back here about change – this is **not** about
>>> versions/editions/revisions.  It’s about a publication that is changing “on
>>> the fly” (with the understanding of the publisher/author, of course).
>>>
>>> Leonard
>>>
>>> *From: *"Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:47 PM
>>> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>, Hadrien Gardeur <
>>> hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: Can a publication change over time?
>>>
>>> Yes, Git is exactly the source of inspiration. Evan Yamanishi, here at
>>> Norton and also a PWG member, has helped us implement a digital production
>>> workflow along these lines.
>>>
>>> The digital signature point is very interesting. It's important that we
>>> keep archival (i.e. long-term preservation) needs in mind, as our group
>>> outlined [1] during the F2F meeting in NYC (the details of that use case
>>> and its scope within WP/PWP are TBD, as we haven't discussed it at all yet).
>>>
>>> [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt
>>> 69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0/edit?usp=sharing
>>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4c07643a6ad043ec105808d4d395fa54%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636366088492276050&sdata=DDcaTS2Y74cGjaKhhbIq3tqTgIiWBvXT2k6yvkYXA%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:31 PM
>>> *To: *"Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>, Hadrien Gardeur <
>>> hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>> *Subject: *RE: Can a publication change over time?
>>>
>>> If authors can attach a digital signature, this would provide a strong
>>> means of verifying that no changes have occurred to the version that the
>>> user obtains. Perhaps what is needed is conceptually similar to what we
>>> have in Git: I can give a specific revision a name (i.e., a tag), then
>>> digitally sign it.
>>>
>>> *From:* Teixeira, Mateus [mailto:mteixeira@wwnorton.com
>>> <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 3:21 PM
>>> *To:* Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>; Leonard
>>> Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>> *Cc:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: Can a publication change over time?
>>>
>>> I agree that from a publishing and distribution perspective—particularly
>>> educational publishing—WP support for continuous updates will be critical.
>>>
>>> Publishers tend to view traditional (i.e., print) publications similar
>>> to how developers view releases and snapshots, except we call them
>>> printings and editions. Publications are indeed "published" at a certain
>>> time and with a certain robustness and completeness of content, but this
>>> content can evolve continuously throughout the publication's lifespan. Even
>>> editions can be viewed as sequential, major versions of a publication. In
>>> fact, this is how we at Norton approach ebook versioning in EPUB.
>>>
>>> That said, I agree with Hadrien's thoughts. I also add that the
>>> (traditional) publishing use case for continuous updates will more likely
>>> resemble coherent "releases" than minor incremental updates, at least until
>>> our digital distribution model evolves so drastically as to make such minor
>>> updates easy to implement and to push to the world. Perhaps a way to
>>> approach this in WP is a recognition that WPs can be updated, but must be
>>> done so with a specific version tagged to it—there are others in the WG who
>>> could word this more eloquently and technically than I can.
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:06 PM
>>> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: Can a publication change over time?
>>> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:05 PM
>>>
>>> Since we're on the Web, I think it's safe to say that everything can and
>>> will be updated over time. No matter what we say and write, this won't
>>> change the way things work on the Web.
>>>
>>> During the call, someone said (Garth maybe?) that the main concern is
>>> tied to the primary resources of a publication.
>>>
>>> I think these primary resources will also be updated and change over
>>> time, here are a few different examples:
>>>
>>>    - it's fairly common for technical books to be updated over time
>>>    (some publishers have beta books, but with platforms like Gitbook you can
>>>    expect even more regular updates)
>>>    - serialized fiction (comics, manga but also general fiction) could
>>>    be distributed as a WP per fragment/chapter, but it might be easier for the
>>>    reader to simply point them to a WP that will be updated over time with
>>>    more content
>>>    - Librivox audiobook releases are produced by a community over time,
>>>    it would make perfect sense to have a WP for the complete publication, with
>>>    new updates as the community releases new audio files
>>>    - Jiminy Panoz provided a use case in the Github issue about remixing
>>>    <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwpub%2Fissues%2F8%23issuecomment-317539201&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C7091842f843b485c0f4508d4d3925621%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636366072842086747&sdata=4zRCcwP7BWV8AVZNZAgy7mxrNbdtAaORTW76ZBOosOg%3D&reserved=0> that
>>>    is also relevant here, since a publisher could dynamically provide specific
>>>    part of a publication (author bio, highlighted titles, titles from the same
>>>    author etc.)
>>>
>>> These are all examples where the ability to update a WP really shines
>>> and adds value compared to EPUB.
>>>
>>> Hadrien
>>>
>>> 2017-07-25 19:45 GMT+02:00 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>:
>>>
>>> There seems to have been a good discussion on this at the meeting that I
>>> missed ☹.   And I didn’t see a specific resolution to the topic, so I
>>> figured I’d pull it out here for further review.
>>>
>>> In my view, Garth said it best (copied from the minutes):
>>> <*garth*> Publishing: defining the parts that won’t change over time.
>>>
>>> This means that a WP can contain resources that are a mix of “static”
>>> (unchanging) content and “dynamic” (changing) content.  I have two favorite
>>> examples (aka real world use cases) of this:
>>>
>>>    1. A textbook where the quizzes can be changed by the professor for
>>>    their specific class
>>>    2. A data dashboard that is able to display the current data
>>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone believe differently about a WP and its ability to contain
>>> “dynamic” content?
>>>
>>> Leonard
>>> P.S. I am specifically **NOT** talking about PWP here – just WP.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>