Re: Can a publication change over time?

+0.75 Luc.

I think we'll want to be able to define a set of "primary resources" that
are fixed at time of "publication".  Perhaps with some way they are
changeable by the author -- but maybe resulting in a new "publication"
(though, I likely could be talked out of that latter part).

Best,
   Garth

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 3:11 AM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>
wrote:

> I think that a WP can have beyond its collection of resources, a
> programmatically « essence ».
>
> In fact, as I said in the Definition thread, resources of a WP can be also
> be programs/algoritihm written and curated by the creator.
> These programs may update the publication !
>
> Use cases :
> - the UA may upload updates of the practical information of a POI in a
> travel guide WP. The practical information included at publication date are
> then modified in the WP document.
> - the UA may load a new chapter in the WP when it is made available by the
> author
>
> This is still for me the same WP.
>
> Luc
>
> De : Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>
> Date : mardi 25 juillet 2017 à 23:19
> À : Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>
> Cc : Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <
> public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> Objet : Re: Can a publication change over time?
> Renvoyer - De : <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> Renvoyer - Date : mardi 25 juillet 2017 à 23:19
>
> I made my comment on this topic on the definition thread -- likely
> matching the opinion of many of the "traditional" publishers in our midst.
>
> To me publishing a publication on a publication date, is meaningless if
> the "primary resources" change thereafter.
>
> Best,
>    Garth
>
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Laurent Le Meur <
> laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> wrote:
>
>> > It’s about a publication that is changing “on the fly” (with the
>> understanding of the publisher/author, of course)
>>
>> This is where thing may get muddy on the Web. In many cases, nothing will
>> notify an author that a Web resource he has included in his Web Publication
>> has changed. *The Web is not a CMS*. It can change suddenly because a
>> picture embedded in the resource has been modified, because a CSS used by
>> the resource has been updated (I use indirect modifications, but direct
>> modifications of an html resource are even more obvious). On the Web
>> resources are shared, control is shared, an author can't control the detail
>> of all the resources he's using in a Web Publication.
>>
>> So when you say "the understanding" Leonard, I understand "the
>> understanding that a publication can change on the fly without his
>> knowledge". It is what you mean?
>>
>> Laurent
>>
>>
>> Le 25 juil. 2017 à 22:14, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> a écrit
>> :
>>
>> Signatures are something that I see as more relevant when we get to
>> Packaged WP…
>>
>> But coming back here about change – this is **not** about
>> versions/editions/revisions.  It’s about a publication that is changing “on
>> the fly” (with the understanding of the publisher/author, of course).
>>
>> Leonard
>>
>> *From: *"Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:47 PM
>> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>, Hadrien Gardeur <
>> hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: Can a publication change over time?
>>
>> Yes, Git is exactly the source of inspiration. Evan Yamanishi, here at
>> Norton and also a PWG member, has helped us implement a digital production
>> workflow along these lines.
>>
>> The digital signature point is very interesting. It's important that we
>> keep archival (i.e. long-term preservation) needs in mind, as our group
>> outlined [1] during the F2F meeting in NYC (the details of that use case
>> and its scope within WP/PWP are TBD, as we haven't discussed it at all yet).
>>
>> [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt
>> 69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0/edit?usp=sharing
>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4c07643a6ad043ec105808d4d395fa54%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636366088492276050&sdata=DDcaTS2Y74cGjaKhhbIq3tqTgIiWBvXT2k6yvkYXA%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>> *From: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:31 PM
>> *To: *"Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>, Hadrien Gardeur <
>> hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *RE: Can a publication change over time?
>>
>> If authors can attach a digital signature, this would provide a strong
>> means of verifying that no changes have occurred to the version that the
>> user obtains. Perhaps what is needed is conceptually similar to what we
>> have in Git: I can give a specific revision a name (i.e., a tag), then
>> digitally sign it.
>>
>> *From:* Teixeira, Mateus [mailto:mteixeira@wwnorton.com
>> <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 3:21 PM
>> *To:* Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>; Leonard Rosenthol
>> <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> *Cc:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
>> *Subject:* Re: Can a publication change over time?
>>
>> I agree that from a publishing and distribution perspective—particularly
>> educational publishing—WP support for continuous updates will be critical.
>>
>> Publishers tend to view traditional (i.e., print) publications similar to
>> how developers view releases and snapshots, except we call them printings
>> and editions. Publications are indeed "published" at a certain time and
>> with a certain robustness and completeness of content, but this content can
>> evolve continuously throughout the publication's lifespan. Even editions
>> can be viewed as sequential, major versions of a publication. In fact, this
>> is how we at Norton approach ebook versioning in EPUB.
>>
>> That said, I agree with Hadrien's thoughts. I also add that the
>> (traditional) publishing use case for continuous updates will more likely
>> resemble coherent "releases" than minor incremental updates, at least until
>> our digital distribution model evolves so drastically as to make such minor
>> updates easy to implement and to push to the world. Perhaps a way to
>> approach this in WP is a recognition that WPs can be updated, but must be
>> done so with a specific version tagged to it—there are others in the WG who
>> could word this more eloquently and technically than I can.
>>
>>
>> *From: *Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:06 PM
>> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: Can a publication change over time?
>> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:05 PM
>>
>> Since we're on the Web, I think it's safe to say that everything can and
>> will be updated over time. No matter what we say and write, this won't
>> change the way things work on the Web.
>>
>> During the call, someone said (Garth maybe?) that the main concern is
>> tied to the primary resources of a publication.
>>
>> I think these primary resources will also be updated and change over
>> time, here are a few different examples:
>>
>>    - it's fairly common for technical books to be updated over time
>>    (some publishers have beta books, but with platforms like Gitbook you can
>>    expect even more regular updates)
>>    - serialized fiction (comics, manga but also general fiction) could
>>    be distributed as a WP per fragment/chapter, but it might be easier for the
>>    reader to simply point them to a WP that will be updated over time with
>>    more content
>>    - Librivox audiobook releases are produced by a community over time,
>>    it would make perfect sense to have a WP for the complete publication, with
>>    new updates as the community releases new audio files
>>    - Jiminy Panoz provided a use case in the Github issue about remixing
>>    <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwpub%2Fissues%2F8%23issuecomment-317539201&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C7091842f843b485c0f4508d4d3925621%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636366072842086747&sdata=4zRCcwP7BWV8AVZNZAgy7mxrNbdtAaORTW76ZBOosOg%3D&reserved=0> that
>>    is also relevant here, since a publisher could dynamically provide specific
>>    part of a publication (author bio, highlighted titles, titles from the same
>>    author etc.)
>>
>> These are all examples where the ability to update a WP really shines and
>> adds value compared to EPUB.
>>
>> Hadrien
>>
>> 2017-07-25 19:45 GMT+02:00 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>:
>>
>> There seems to have been a good discussion on this at the meeting that I
>> missed ☹.   And I didn’t see a specific resolution to the topic, so I
>> figured I’d pull it out here for further review.
>>
>> In my view, Garth said it best (copied from the minutes):
>> <*garth*> Publishing: defining the parts that won’t change over time.
>>
>> This means that a WP can contain resources that are a mix of “static”
>> (unchanging) content and “dynamic” (changing) content.  I have two favorite
>> examples (aka real world use cases) of this:
>>
>>    1. A textbook where the quizzes can be changed by the professor for
>>    their specific class
>>    2. A data dashboard that is able to display the current data
>>
>>
>> Does anyone believe differently about a WP and its ability to contain
>> “dynamic” content?
>>
>> Leonard
>> P.S. I am specifically **NOT** talking about PWP here – just WP.
>>
>>
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