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Re: PROV-ISSUE-647 (TomDN): Make prov:pariValue a subproperty of prov:entity? [PROV-DICTIONARY]

From: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 14:02:59 +0000
Message-ID: <EMEW3|377c621f42c402ed2a5fad687409c197p2OE3108l.moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|51505913.4080503@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Tom De Nies <tom.denies@ugent.be>
CC: public-prov-wg@w3.org

On 03/25/2013 01:52 PM, Tom De Nies wrote:
> That is a problem...
>
> So I guess this is an "all or nothing" situation, where we either 
> leave things as they are, or add the inheritance and disturb the DM in 
> some way. (by violating the influence definition or adding something 
> to the domain of EntityInfluence)

... and prov-o too, which has the same definition: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/#Influence

Luc

>
> - Tom
>
> P.S.: @Tim: no problem at all, at the contrary! I'd rather have you 
> rocking the boat at this stage than an external reviewer after the 
> final review round.
>
> 2013/3/25 Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
> <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>
>     Hi Tim,
>
>     The group voted (back in SB) against membership being an influence.
>
>     prov-dm defines influence as follows:
>
>     Influence ◊ is the capacity of an entity, activity, or agent to
>     have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of
>     another by means of usage, start, end, generation, invalidation,
>     communication, derivation, attribution, association, or delegation.
>
>     I don't understand how we can make prov:KeyValuePair
>     <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/releases/WD-prov-dictionary-20130312/Overview.html#KeyValuePair>
>     a subclass of prov:EntityInfluence
>     <http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/PR-prov-o-20130312/#EntityInfluence>
>     without
>     going against that vote and the definition.
>
>     Luc
>
>
>     On 03/25/2013 12:42 PM, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>     Tom,
>>
>>     Apologies for rocking the boat with my off-list comment.
>>
>>     On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Tom De Nies <tom.denies@ugent.be
>>     <mailto:tom.denies@ugent.be>> wrote:
>>
>>>     Luc raised some concerns about making prov:pairValue a
>>>     sub-property of prov:entity in yesterday's telecon.
>>>     If we decide to make prov:pairValue
>>>     <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/releases/WD-prov-dictionary-20130312/Overview.html#pairValue>
>>>     a sub-property of prov:entity
>>>     <http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/PR-prov-o-20130312/#p_entity>, that
>>>     would imply that prov:pairValue now has the domain
>>>     prov:EntityInfluence
>>>     <http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/PR-prov-o-20130312/#EntityInfluence>.
>>
>>     This makes sense from the qualification perspective, since the
>>     KeyValuePair is adding the detail of some "key" for some existing
>>     prov:hadMember Entity "value".
>>
>>     The Entity :bar existed just fine on its own, then when some
>>     Dictionary decided to come along and shove it into some "key bin"
>>     called "foo", the KeyValuePair is the (membership) qualification
>>     for how the Entity :bar influenced the Dictionary (and also
>>     includes the key used: "foo").
>>
>>
>>>     Would this mean that we have to make prov:KeyValuePair
>>>     <https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/dictionary/releases/WD-prov-dictionary-20130312/Overview.html#KeyValuePair>
>>>     a subclass of prov:EntityInfluence
>>>     <http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/PR-prov-o-20130312/#EntityInfluence>
>>>     as well?
>>
>>     Yup.
>>
>>>     This seems weird and counter-intuitive to me.
>>
>>     When starting with Entity :bar and wanting to move to a
>>     KeyValuePair to place it into "key bin foo", then yes, it can
>>     seem *un*intuitive (though, not sure about *counter* intuitive).
>>     But, when you make a KeyValuePair, you're implying some
>>     Dictionary -- and you've influenced that Dictionary by placing a
>>     new Entity into it.
>>     The Entity influenced the Dictionary by becoming its member, with
>>     the additional detail of the key.
>>
>>     ^^ EntityInfluence, Dictionary, prov:hadMember, KeyValuePair
>>
>>>     It would imply that a dictionary would have some influence on
>>>     all its members.
>>>
>>
>>     Other way around. The Entities placed into the Dictionary
>>     influenced the Dictionary.
>>
>>
>>     -Tim
>>
>>>     Tim, could you share your views on this?
>>>
>>>     Regards,
>>>     Tom
>>>
>>>     2013/3/7 Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>     <sysbot+tracker@w3.org <mailto:sysbot+tracker@w3.org>>
>>>
>>>         PROV-ISSUE-647 (TomDN): Make prov:pariValue a subproperty of
>>>         prov:entity? [PROV-DICTIONARY]
>>>
>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/647
>>>
>>>         Raised by: Tom De Nies
>>>         On product: PROV-DICTIONARY
>>>
>>>         Came up in an off-list conversation with Tim about the
>>>         PROV-O of dictionaries. It appears to be useful to make
>>>         prov:pairValue a subproperty of prov:entity. This way
>>>         applications could use spec-level constructs to
>>>         "accidentally" "understand" part of the "brand new construct".
>>>
>>>         Nice phrasing of the rationale by Tim:
>>>         "Having prov:pairValue is a very nice subproperty for these
>>>         uninterested in the alignment with qualifications, but still
>>>         provides those that do care about qualifications a treat."
>>>
>>>         I see no real problems with adding this for the next
>>>         release. Is this acceptable to the group or did we miss some
>>>         consequences?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>     -- 
>     Professor Luc Moreau
>     Electronics and Computer Science   tel:+44 23 8059 4487  <tel:%2B44%2023%208059%204487>
>     University of Southampton          fax:+44 23 8059 2865  <tel:%2B44%2023%208059%202865>
>     Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk  <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>     United Kingdomhttp://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm  <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>
>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Monday, 25 March 2013 14:03:26 UTC

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