Re: PROV-ISSUE-449: Better definition of prov:value [prov-dm]

Hi Tim,

Find the proposed changes:

http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/prov-dm-issue-449.html

1. new definition
2. second example, inspired by yours, but without using owl properties.

Are you happy for this to be included in the editor's draft?

Cheers,
Luc


On 09/04/2012 05:40 PM, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>
> On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> I agree with your example.
>>
>> We could add it, preceded by the following sentence:
>>
>> Two different entities MAY have the same value for the attribute 
>> prov:value. For instance,
>> when two entities, with the same prov:value, are generated by two 
>> different activities, as illustrated
>> by the following example.
>> <<Tim's example to add here>>
>
>
> If you feel that the example helps your "direct representation" 
> definition, it seems fine to add it.
>
> I wouldn't emphasize the "by two different activities" and instead 
> focus on the distinctiveness of the influencing entities (as I 
> had <tweet_235> owl:differentFrom <intranet_page> .)
>
> -Tim
>
>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> Luc
>>
>> On 04/09/12 16:58, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>> Luc,
>>>
>>> On Sep 4, 2012, at 11:42 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tim and Jim,
>>>>
>>>> Do you want to make a suggestion for a definition of prov:value?
>>>>
>>>> I see prov:value as the equivalent of "immediate operands" in 
>>>> assembly language :
>>>> "/An operand that is directly encoded as part of a machine 
>>>> instruction is called an immediate operand/. [1] "
>>>>
>>>> So, to get the ball rolling, attempting a definition:
>>>> prov:value is an attribute whose value is a direct representation 
>>>> of an entity as a PROV-DM Value(5.7.3).
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this definition is much better. "direct representation" 
>>> conveys it well and I think is satisfactory.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some nit-picking that shouldn't hold us up:
>>>
>>> Informatively, where do you see prov:value fitting with 
>>> prov:specializationOf and inverse functionality?
>>>
>>> It seems that the following two entities could be distinct, where 
>>> one distinguishing aspect is their "source":
>>>
>>> :quote_1
>>>     prov:value "Four score and seven years ago";
>>>     prov:wasQuotedFrom <tweet_235>;
>>> .
>>>
>>> :quote_2
>>>    prov:value "Four score and seven years ago";
>>>    prov:wasQuotedFrom <intranet_page>;
>>> .
>>>
>>> <tweet_235> owl:differentFrom <intranet_page> .
>>> :quote_1 owl:differentFrom :quote_2 .
>>>
>>>
>>> Does "Directly represented" imply a degree of inverse functionality? 
>>> I don't think it should, but it seems to.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Luc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://chortle.ccsu.edu/assemblytutorial/Chapter-11/ass11_2.html
>>>>
>>>> On 17/07/12 17:01, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>>>> Graham noted in his prov-o review [1]:
>>>>>
>>>>> [[[
>>>>>   But, maybe more fundamentally, is there any specified way to express a value that is itself denoted by a URI?
>>>>>   In OWL terms, this needs an object property. It's OK if ther4e's no such way, as one can always introduce new properties,
>>>>>   but it seems odd to me that data values are OK but other values are not.
>>>>> ]]]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After discussing this with Jim McCusker, I'm convinced that prov:value is the literal analogue to prov:specializationOf.
>>>>>
>>>>> In:
>>>>>        :my_calculation_result prov:value 4.5 .
>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>>         :my-copied-test prov:value "For score" .
>>>>>
>>>>> Both subjects _are_ specializations of their objects, and their objects have relatively few fixed aspects (abstract mathematical relationship, a string length, etc).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if we want to mix prov:specializationOf into the discussion of prov:value, but this ISSUE is about the need for a clearer definition of prov:value.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I think the answer to Graham's question is "we have a way to express a value of a URI - prov:specializationOf".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Review_of_prov-o_july_3_2012_for_last_call#Graham
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-449: Better definition of prov:value [prov-dm]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/449
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Raised by: Timothy Lebo
>>>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although we know that prov:value is very useful,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#term-attribute-value
>>>>>>
>>>>>> does not provide a satisfactory definition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are copying rdf:value:http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_value  which provides an equally unsatisfying definition:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [[[
>>>>>> rdf:value is an instance of rdf:Property that may be used in describing structured values.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> rdf:value has no meaning on its own. It is provided as a piece of vocabulary that may be used in idioms such as illustrated in example 16 of the RDF primer [RDF-PRIMER]. Despite the lack of formal specification of the meaning of this property, there is value in defining it to encourage the use of a common idiom in examples of this kind.
>>>>>> ]]]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can we do better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>> United Kingdomhttp://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>> United Kingdomhttp://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>
>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm