- From: Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 12:53:07 -0400
- To: public-poiwg W3C <public-poiwg@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes for last week's face to face meeting are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html
And as text below.
It would be difficult to summarize this meeting in just a few short sentences, so I've taken an action to summarize it in a longer form. I'll mail when that summary is available.
Thanks to Layar for hosting us, and everyone for attending!
-Matt
--
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
POIWG 2011 F2F #1, Day 1
29 Mar 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-irc
Attendees
Present
Matt, Christine, Fons, Alex, Jaques, Carsten, Jonathan, Dan,
Ronald, Dirk, Luca
Regrets
Andy, Gary, Karl, Raj
Chair
Alex, Matt
Scribe
Luca, matt, Ronald
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Introductions
2. [6]Agenda
3. [7]Planning First Public Working Draft
4. [8]Requirements Generation
5. [9]Next F2F
6. [10]Liaisons
7. [11]Reviewing the Core draft
8. [12]IDs, Microformats, RDFa, Open Graph Protocol and Linked
Data
* [13]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 29 March 2011
Introductions
<matt> Scribe: Luca
Round table
Fons kuijk new in Poi and he's interested in AR
Cristine Parey Invited experted
<matt> [[New participants: Fons from W3C Office and CWI, Carsten
from Ordnance Survey and OGC]]
Jonatan from ETRI in Korea
Dirk is CTO of Layar hosting the meeting
Dirk: thank you all to coming
<cperey> Luca Lamorte, Telecom Italia, AR interest
<danbri> i'm Dan Brickley <[14]http://danbri.org/>, occasional
geo-geek, semi-lapsed WG member.
[14] http://danbri.org/>
Agenda
Matt: first talk about the agenda
... talk about talk about metadata stuff
... topic q
<matt> [15]Agenda
[15] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda
sorry topic 1
please look at the wiki page for the agenda
<JonathanJ> Agenda:
[16]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011
[16] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011
matt: How we going to plan the draft
... Talk about next F2F
... then we have the OMA liaison request
<danbri> dan: I'm in the new RDF Working Group ... we have a
deliverable of a JSON format for RDF. Group is currently trying to
decide requirements for that, ... so if this POI WG has JSON needs,
that could be good input.
<danbri> ... happy to be a liason
matt: thanks Dan
Dan: Use to JSON and care of RDF
<danbri> ACTION: danbri circulate pointer to RDF WG JSON discussion
[recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Circulate pointer to RDF WG JSON
discussion [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-05].
Matt: AR vocabulary
... Any changes of agenda?
<matt> [18]Results
[18] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/45386/POI-F2F-2011-1/results
Planning First Public Working Draft
<matt> [19]Charter
[19] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/
Matt: first draft called CORE it should be ready in April
... late april, early may it's not so bad
<JonathanJ> W3C Process document :
[20]http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#first-wd
[20] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#first-wd
Matt: how we want to go on the document?
... we need so cohesion
... a role of editor
... the author is the working group
... Editor should put on the proper format
... anyone want to step forward?
... I can put a strong effort help on this issue
... the editor is also the author
... and we can work as we want
Alex: how we can expect people to work collaboratively without
clashes, etc?
Matt: the social part
... we can have hierarchy
... so far people is scared on put things on the wiki
... they prefer to send stuff by email, then someone adds it to the
wiki
alex:
<JonathanJ> we can also use to tracker system -
[21]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/
[21] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/
Carsten: it's good put stuff on the wiki and then stop a certain
point
... to make an agreement and edit them into the document
Fons: it should be a native speaker of doing it
cpery: there is not so match traffic on the mailing list
matt: we need to put more action points on the call, so it would be
more effective
<matt> [22]POI Tracker
[22] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/
<matt> RESOLUTION: Matt to start acting as informal editor. WG will
bring together issues weekly for entering into wiki.
<danbri> draft: [23]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
[23] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
<matt> [24]Web App Tracker
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/
<JonathanJ> one of example from MWBP WG (closed WG) -
[25]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/
[25] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/
matt: They have raised 46 issues
and only 6 are closed
<matt>
[26]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/webapi/issues/open
[26] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/webapi/issues/open
<matt> [27]MWBP issue
[27] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/131
<danbri> [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/
[28] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/
matt: look at one the issue
... issue can also have actions associated on that
... back to irc
... Move on the the next topic?
Requirements Generation
<danbri> what do we have re requirements?
<danbri>
[29]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch
&search=requirements&go=Go
[29] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=requirements&go=Go
Dan: can we look at the requirements?
<matt> [30]Use Cases
[30] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases
matt: i start put some requirements
<matt>
matt: I collect tech requirements here
[31]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Requirements
... maybe we should go back into primitive
[31] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Requirements
Alex: would say personally yes because I think we don't have
finished the discission
... we need a review
<danbri> I'm looking for stuff like: "I maintain a Web page listing
points of interest in my city; what could/should I do to make this
W3C POI compatible?"; "I'm building an AR app for iphone, what data
structures should I create to hold W3C POI data?", "I'm building a
database of POIs to back a social Web site, ... what minimum
structure should it have to fit the W3C spec?", "I have a javascript
library for plotting POIs on a 3D globe - [32]https://mozilla
[32] https://mozilla/
<danbri> demos.org/demos/globetweeter/demo.html eg - ) ....etc"
Alex: My concerns about relevance, we need a short review on what we
have said
<matt> [33]Current Use Cases
[33] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases
Alex: these use cases sounds to me like are almost the same
<JonathanJ>
[34]https://mozillademos.org/demos/globetweeter/demo.html
[34] https://mozillademos.org/demos/globetweeter/demo.html
<matt> [35]Christine's use cases
[35] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#Augmented_Reality
alex: I hope there are use case that covers all and not only one
aspect
cperey: some agend are creating new content
alex: people have practical thing to do in their head and these has
effect on the UC
... we need to spend more time on UC, because we got away from the
story
Carlsten: we need to define what is out of scope
cperey: maybe some of the issues is that
... OGC are more familiar on people who are
<danbri> no
<danbri> (matt, sure. notes here:) ... 2 proposals to make (test
driving Issue-based discussion and decision making), (i) POI spec
should make explicit ability to distinguish an organization (eg. a
school) from the building/geo it inhabits (ii) POI spec should make
explicit ability to distinguish organizational brands (Starbucks,
CostaCoffee). Suggest we decide this in terms of personas for
relevant use cases, eg. webdev working at starbucks; 3rd party
<danbri> layar developer making a 'coffee hangouts' layer or iphone
app....
<danbri> (if we can spend a little time to walk thru discussing
those and making or not making issues, that'd be lovely)
Alex: we need more people experts on different aspect we want to
cover on POI
danbri: 2 expample on modelling issues
sorry too fast to me :(
<matt> scribe: matt
danbri: 1. Are we going to have explicit ability to distinguish
between say an organization and it's buildings?
... 2. Distinctions between organizational brands, e.g. all of the
Starbucks in Boston.
... I don't think we have enough use cases to cover these.
... I think we should have more personas, say GIS professional or AR
developer
... Say, I've spent time building a layer of Amsterdam restaurants,
how does that person relate to the spec?
-> [36]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/new Create a new
issue
[36] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/new
<danbri> [37]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/2
[37] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/2
-> [38]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/2 organizations vs
places
[38] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/2
[[WG works through capturing issues in tracker]]
ahill: Let's not necessarily flesh it out now, but log it and get us
into the habit of raising issues.
-> [39]http://colloquy.info/ Colloquy Mac client
[39] http://colloquy.info/
<ahill> rrs agent draft minutes
<JonathanJ> help about rrsagent -
[40]http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
[40] http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
<Luca> next f2f
Next F2F
<scribe> scribe: Luca
<JonathanJ> manual for zakim -
[41]http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
[41] http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
matt: hosting the meeting ...
<danbri> ( re above discussion see
[42]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/3 poi-brands --- and a
bit of discussion re process )
[42] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/3
matt: 2/3 per year
... big meeting in novemeber
... in Santa Clara
<matt> [43]TPAC 2011
[43] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
matt: So from October 31st
... there is a plenary where all WGs are in the same room
... and each groups talk about what's going on
<matt> ->http ://www.ismar11.org/ ISMAR 2011
cperey: the OGC has a meeting in september
<matt> [44]OGC Technical Plenary
[44] http://www.opengeospatial.org/event/1109tc
cperey: it's better to avoid meeting while there are other at the
same time in other place
... that was one the problem during Atlanta's one
... The next one should be in ASIA
alex: what does meaning hosting rotating?
matt: To be fair to all participants we should try to rotate through
the continents they are located in.
cperey: we don't have ideal time for meeting on each continent
<JonathanJ> we can host a meeting in seoul
<JonathanJ> a few weeks ago, we hosted DAP WG meeting in Seoul -
[45]http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/SeoulF2F2011
[45] http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/SeoulF2F2011
matt: we should have one meeting in summer
cperey: also OGC has volunteered for hosting
... would like to OGC members to participate
... OGC will pay the place/food/registrstion
<danbri> re OpenStreetMap I find
[46]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2011/Bid/Den
ver but not the final url
[46] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2011/Bid/Denver
Alex: how we connect organization like W3C with OpenStreepMap
... Just a practical question
<JonathanJ> If we can host a meeting in seoul, potential Korean
company(LG and Samsung) and Korean AR guys could be join us.
Resume proposal on WIKI
<matt>
<danbri> proposal maybe? "POI Core format should be capable of
round-tripping Open StreetMap data for points, potentially using
extension mechanisms to capture any extra info needed. A draft CR
exit criteria?"
<danbri> OSM data: [47]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm
[47] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm
alex: how POI describe OpenStreetMap
<matt> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Meet face to face 3 times this year
<matt> [48]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/4
[48] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/4
<matt> Scribe: matt
cperey: There was a two day meeting after Barcelona. This group
wasn't represented.
... Alex gave a presentation, Andy was planning to come but couldn't
make it.
... OGC proposed to make itself the administrative platform for a
loose community of those who care about standards.
... George Percival made a presentation and a pitch about it.
... I've had a few meetings of international standards community
that have brought together 50-60 people. Half presentation half
discussion.
... One proposal is that the OGC take the lead.
... There has been some pushback. No decision has been made.
... We didn't have visibility into other standards organizations.
<danbri> (this all about AR...)
cperey: It's informal, grassroots, people can contribute, but since
it's informal, it doesn't get official recognition.
danbri: Similarly WHATWG made things and made people listen.
cperey: There's a very high quality discussion on the list. It's
very AR focused, not focused on one specific domain.
... So proposal for f2f to be at the next OGC meeting, I went to
George and said "we can't just continue to do the same formula",
need to have concrete objectives. Can't just say we'll chat about
position papers.
<danbri> see also
[49]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Jan/0021.ht
ml [50]http://arstandards.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
[51]http://arstandards.org/pipermail/discussion/
[49] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Jan/0021.html
[50] http://arstandards.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
[51] http://arstandards.org/pipermail/discussion/
cperey: So the accepted proposal was that OGC set up liaison between
OGC and other organizations and then a meeting outside the OGC,
where others can attend who weren't members.
<danbri> lots of discussions here
[52]http://arstandards.org/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/date.html
[52] http://arstandards.org/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/date.html
cperey: It would let multiple organizations get together.
... The other option is to have liaisions.
... To short-circuit things, we would be to create liaisons with the
other groups that skirt at the ages of where we are.
... The proposal is to have a multi-SDO meeting. Maybe people are
not part of each organization.
... The purpose would be to create a figure that defines what
different organizations, be they grass roots, or more established
organizations, that describes who is going to take care of what.
... So the scope is understood between one another.
... Figure out our constituents, and then let the other parts that
have expertise be covered by other organizations.
... So if this working group could attend one day, or half a day,
and have it's WG meeting around it, that would be one proposal.
... Each SDO present what they are working on.
... It would really accelerate the work on the AR landscape.
... It would in one place bring in where all these organizations
are.
... I've written a chapter for a book on the subject of where we
stand now as far as the standards organizations are concerned.
Co-authored with Carl Reed (OGC) and Timo ?? (Fraunhoffer).
... and a contribution from the Khronos group.
... We created a diagram of which groups have which expertise. I'm
happy to share it.
alex: So there's a proposal on the table related to what you first
mentioned. This invitation by OGC to go to Taiwan in June. Does this
group want to have it's F2F there and participate in a multi-SDO
meeting.
cperey: Those that join OGC covers the participation in the TP, etc.
carsten: From OGC there are two types of WGs, there's WGs which are
difficult to liaise with, and then there are more general domain
WGs.
cperey: Examples? Mass Market?
cartsten: And 3D Information Management
danbri: And GeoSPARQL?
carsten: That one is a standards WG, but there's also geo semantics,
which is a domain WG.
... 3DIM covers an awful lot of stuff that may be relevant in an AR
world ranging from geology to navigation of robots within buildings.
<JonathanJ> one of OGC's activity in W3C was SSN IG -
[53]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/
[53] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/
carsten: I'm not sure there will be much 3D stuff in Taiwan, so I
think the Boulder meeting might be more relevant.
matt: The Boulder one also has the OSM meeting around it.
carsten: There may also be a 3D summit in Boulder.
->
[54]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Futur
e_Face_to_Face_Meetings#2011_F2F_Options
[54] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Future_Face_to_Face_Meetings#2011_F2F_Options
<danbri> looking for public OGC discussions ->
[55]http://www.ogcnetwork.net/forum/ ... is that a useful place to
hang around?
[55] http://www.ogcnetwork.net/forum/
<danbri> searching 'geosparql' i find 3 links:
[56]http://www.ogcnetwork.net/search/node/geosparql
[56] http://www.ogcnetwork.net/search/node/geosparql
<danbri> googled ->
[57]http://www.opengeospatial.org/projects/groups/geosparqlswg/
[57] http://www.opengeospatial.org/projects/groups/geosparqlswg/
[[insert matt's comments here]]
alex: I think you're saying the liaisons are sufficent, but getting
everyone meeting is not necessarily the solution to the problems.
matt: I think we can get the actual work done best through liaisons.
We can use the official W3C workshop mechanism to do the rest, or we
can have another group do it, or a new third party.
cperey: I think the struggle we're having on the list is a
reflection of a larger question.
... I don't believe it would be healthy to have a multi-SDO meeting
that is a mock-up of having five standards development organizations
there, and only have 2 show up.
... If the WGs within the SDOs, the work item groups, the OMA
effort, etc, decide to come and OGC is there and W3C and Khronos is
there, if you can get 4 of 5 or 5 of 6, that tips the scales to
looks promising.
... Then if those organizations have their liaisons in place and can
make their activities more known to one another, then that would be
beneficial to all of the work.
... There's a lot to be hashed out, it's not a done deal that this
meeting will happen. It's voluntary.
<danbri> no sweat
alex: I hear that if we don't liaise with these other groups, then
we fail in a sense. I think that's a real problem, I don't know if
what you're proposing is the solution, or if there are other ways we
can liaise and succeed.
danbri: One of the biggest obstacles is that some of these
organizations work in private. I think the tendency is to work fully
in public at w3c now. It was hard. Every time you move stuff public,
you remove the incentive to join. OGC, Khronos, ISO all have these
problems.
<JonathanJ> +1
danbri: Someone has to pay for making standards. What we have with
AR and POI is a very broad, loose, hard to get your head around
topics.
... 3d modeling, QR codes, etc everything is in there. Because it's
so broad, I think having a single meeting with all of the stake
holders can be useful.
... We need to have as broad a group as possible to send links and
share.
... Public discussions, things that have links... if we don't have
that we have press releases from CEOs talking about working with
other groups and nothing inside.
... I think we should be moving more and more public in this WG.
alex: Do you think much happens in AR, e.g. the Layars of the world,
are talking in public or in private about standards.
danbri: They're busy getting started. As a market leader, it's
difficult to rationalize standards.
... Some standards yes, some no.
<JonathanJ> Another biggest obstacle is IPR problem.
Ronald: I think the AR browsers have realized there will be a
standard, and we can't wait for it, so we're doing our own stuff, so
we want to be the first to make a browser for that standard too!
cperey: Layar and Mobilizy contribute an enormous amount to this
subject.
alex: I think I narrowed it down too much, but there's also the
Nokia/NAVTEQ's that have interest in seeing these standards go
forward, but I doubt they are talking to each other a lot about
those standards.
cperey: MetaIO came to the meeting in Barcelona and was an eye
opener for them.
<danbri> (absolutely no disrespect to layar intended; i just mean
that it's expensive to put time into standards, but for market
leader the incentives are always ambiguous for std'izing a rapidly
evolving platform)
alex: Yes, it's obvious that the Wikitudes and the Layars of the
world see this as a good place to touch. The question is what
organization do we create that is appealing to them.
<danbri> much for nametags :)
alex: There will be some organizations who don't see it as their
full time job to be in standards organizations.
... It sounds like it's similar to OGC and W3C as it has membership,
IP, companies have things to say in it.
cperey: And OMA.
... They don't want to have membership in five organizations. They
want to have confidence that the organizations will define the
interestions.
alex: Do we want this to be a permanent organization?
<JonathanJ> I worry about that Giant company(Google, Apple, MS) can
be a killer of AR standardization in future.
cperey: Which we?
alex: All of us at the same time.
... If they don't want to be in each organization than they can have
their own group, or they can join OMA, or...
<danbri> I can't get excited about another group to liaise
thru/with/via, as a solution to the 'there are too many groups to
liaise with' problem :|
cperey: It can be counter productive to be too formal.
alex: On one hand, we're not a bunch of hackers throwing together
all of our AR fantasies. We're trying to be a little bit more
"pointed". We can't have both at the same time.
<scribe> Scribe: Ronald
<matt> RESOLUTION: WG will meet f2f three times per year
<matt> [58]Future F2F meetings
[58] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Future_Face_to_Face_Meetings
Matt: recap meeting options
... as we want to meet 3 times this year, we have a good starting
point for selecting meeting locations
... can be decided later on during our calls
... do we want to continue with the liason discussions, or move on
to another agenda item?
Liaisons
<matt> [59]OMA Liaison statement
[59] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2011Mar/att-0033/OMA-LS_905-OMA_REQ_WG_Information_on_W3C_POI_WG_activity-20110302-A.pdf
Matt: lets start with the OMA Liaison for discussion
... OMA has 3 specified deliverables, data format, transport client
features and security features
... Clear overlap with data format
<JonathanJ> Here is initial draft of OMA MobileAR Enabler
specification - [60]http://db.tt/JmtFaNO
[60] http://db.tt/JmtFaNO
Luca: not personally involved in OMA, but Carmen, which is in the
same group at Telecom Italia is in the OMA group
Jonathan: I am in the OMA MobileAR meeting in two weeks
... not involved in the previous group calls
... Samsung joined OMA, but not in the MobileAR Enabler
<matt> Luca: Supporting companies: EnSoft, LG Electronics, AT&T,
Danal Entertainment, Telecom Italia, Samsung
<matt> Luca: they have different membership types.
cperey: qualcomm is active as well
matt: we have people who are members in both organization, we have
an agreement with OMA and OGC for data sharing
<JonathanJ> I have asked Criminisi (Current Champion of MobileAR),
Telecom Italia, but she said not yet decide for MobileAR meeting in
Sorrent.
ahill: is there any reason against it?
matt: as our work is public, there is no real need for it
cperey: seems like a no brainer to do a liaison
... having people in both groups is not a real way of knowing what
is going on, but having an official liaison is better
matt: we should talk and be in cooperation and point out where the
overlap is with us and other
cperey: do we have POI covered? We are having problems getting
involvement
ahill: it might make other members from OMA to participate in our
group
... agreeing to liase with OMA does not influence our charter
matt: OMA wants to write a standard for POI. we should talk to them
and work together instead of duplicating efforts
cperey: creating a contact surface of POI for immediate discussion
with them. Ask them how they want to define POI
matt: having them at the table is ok.. drafting the response has to
be looked at by a lawyer from the W3C perspective
luca: POI is more general than AR
... we have to look at how it will affect our groups work
<JonathanJ> As you can see in Mobile AR spec -
[61]http://db.tt/JmtFaNO , I think they are just focused on Mobile
AR architecture.
[61] http://db.tt/JmtFaNO
luca: the OMA work package seems to be describing an application and
not really a specification
... we don't have a special interest in AR, but have it as a use
case
... they will need us as a common way of information and we can take
their specific use case as input for our POI definition (e.g.
special data field requirements)
matt: our generic POI is supposed to be extensible, so if OMA want a
standardized client for AR they might want to add specifics to the
data model
cperey: the scope of OMA seems quite large, it covers the entire
stack
... we have taken only a small portion of the problem and it is
already messy.
... the companies involved are not the ones who are currently
working on it in the real world
ahill: maybe its the nature of OMA that they want to standardize
bigger things and this is just a blanket
matt: the m stands for mobile, so they limit their full stack to
just mobile ar
... they are in a strange place compared to us
ahill: they are not just doing it in private, but they are seeking
liaisons. so maybe they realize they do not have all the answers
<matt> ACTION: andy to start drafting a response to OMA liaison
statement to agree with the idea of the liaison and to suggest that
they participate in our POI and AR discussion and try to converge
their technical specifications with ours [recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Start drafting a response to OMA
liaison statement to agree with the idea of the liaison and to
suggest that they participate in our POI and AR discussion and try
to converge their technical specifications with ours [on Andrew
Braun - due 2011-04-05].
<danbri> JonathanJ, thanks for that link, I hadn't seen it. There's
a basic taxonomy of actors in OMA-ER-MobAR-V1_0-20110311-D_20110323
but it seems very simple (user, content provider, service
provider)...
matt: when looking at Khronos, we don't want to specify 3D specs,
and we don't want them to deal with POIs
ahill: not sure what Khronos would contribute to POIs, but it would
be nice to know they are involved
... it will help our legitimacy
... maybe we should shift to a more tangible look at what the core
draft is to summarize
Reviewing the Core draft
<danbri> [63]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
[63] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
ahill: the core draft we have is the result of our F2F in december
... discussions were about whether POIs were purely geo based or
describing things
... a core POI is described by a location, name, some relationships,
identifier, category, some temporal information, and any metadata,
any extensibility
... the first one is location
... we wanted to have something flexible, not just individual points
... it can have one or more location primitives, for example 100ft
from the corner of another known place
... or some strict WGS84 location
... or a description for an image capturing device, so you don't
know the real location, but do know it when you see it
... if some service exists that can resolve the exact location that
is helpful
... we do want to look at 3D objects for extends
... we did not go into detail
... the relationship primitive is for defining relations for example
adjacency, franchise of a chain,
<matt> Carsten: Silicon Valley is a "vernacular name"
ahill: for navigation adjacency is important to have
cperey: if you have 5 stores in a mall, how do you specify that the
specific POI is in the mall
ahill: here we got a bit confused. we have extensibility,
relationships, etc... and we did not know what should fit in which
primitive
... the category has to be added to POI from the big POI databases
perspective
cperey: the categorization pushes us into the direction of linked
data
carsten: it is an area where the data vendor pushes their picture of
the world
danbri: we know we as a group cannot specify all categories, but
leaving a giant hole in the spec is not good
... so we could specify our standard to let others insert categories
<danbri> (there might also be different kinds of categories; eg.
cultural heritage categories for historical landmarks, versus types
of company, ...)
carsten: in citygml we try to model the real world, so we have
materials for building, roofs, which can be country specific.
... initially, we wanted to give an example in the specification and
let people use their own
<danbri> (another example, friend here in AMS collecting info about
road blockages for fire dept usage ... categories range from 'big
hole in street' to 'lighbulb needs changing')
carsten: but if you publish the data, it is not that useful. so we
looked into having a registry for "approved" lists
... trying to convince OGC staff to look at a resource to utilize,
but still at the beginning
<danbri> (q for Carsten, I heard a rumour OGC was moving towards
using SKOS for 'code list' categories?)
ahill: I am still new to the RDF world, but there are some
standards. You would not create the registry ad hoc
carsten: there is a bit of structure. we are currently in the
process to put an URI on top of it to find it
<danbri>
[64]http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=skos+ogc
[64] http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=skos+ogc
ahill: isn't there something in the RDF world, like a schema?
danbri: skos is more of less a thesaurus with different levels of
categories
ahill: my point was that when people go to registries, it should not
be ad hoc. we have some guidance
matt: with RDF you can look at the namespaces and dereference
<JonathanJ> SKOS - [65]http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_SKOS
[65] http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_SKOS
jacques: perhaps we should focus on XML first as it is simple and
look at RDF later
... RDF can be powerful, but we can stay with something simple and
extensible
ahill: if I see something from "good relations" but how do I know
what the document contains
danbri: you can look at the spec. It is not always writing the code
for you
... it is semi-structured chaos\
ahill: it is up to me if I see foaf to know what to do with it
<danbri> oh this seems useful:
[66]https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=29334
[66] https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=29334
<matt> [67]Jacques' message
[67] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Jan/0010.html
matt: in januari, jaques sent a sample of RDF that uses foaf an poap
ahill: there will be a lot of data in a POI, but how do we define
what data we want to get
... I am assuming linked data has a solution for this
danbri: there is a linked data query language SparQL
ahill: I was expecting something easier
<matt> [68]GeoSPARQL editor's draft from OGC
[68] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/GeoSPARQL.pdf
ahill: I don't necessarily need all the information about ticket
prices if I walk by a movie theater
... is there a way to hit a URL to get specific data
<matt> [69]Paper from Geodata
[69] http://linkedgeodata.org/files/paper.pdf
matt: jacques provided a link today
<danbri> i'll try converting that POAP example to fit into Facebook
OG format, as a quick demo
<matt> Ronald: The POI information is at first limited, but you can
view in a web view more information
<matt> Ronald: Kept the APIs simple and deliberately chose to have a
single API call.
ahill: it is a big problem for anyone building mobile AR
... might be our of scope for this group
matt: It is in scope to make something useable
jacques: we have an app build on RDF, which is powerful, but we
don't use a lot of it
... not sure if companies like Layar, Wikitude, Metaio would
leverage the power of RDF
matt: we decided last F2F to not look at the technical format, but
primarily at the data model
... and have multiple options for data representations
danbri: if we have an entity-relationship model we are pretty close
to RDF anyway\
jacques: when looking at openstreetmap, it is very popular because
the XML format is very simple
... we now see many people converting the data to RDF format
... in this group it might be bettor to have a simple XML format.
Others can map it to RDF
<matt> [70]OSM format?
[70] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_Primitives
danbri: the data will appear in multiple places JSON for web, XML,
etc
... whatever we do we will upset people\
jacques: authoring json is more difficult than xml
... openstreetmap has 2 billion POIs in XML, with semantic data in
each POI
... which is why I prefer XML, it is like HTML
<JonathanJ> Comparison of JSON and XML Data Interchange Formats: A
Case Study -
[71]http://www.cs.montana.edu/izurieta/pubs/caine2009.pdf
[71] http://www.cs.montana.edu/izurieta/pubs/caine2009.pdf
<JonathanJ> another comparison -
[72]http://www.scriptol.com/ajax/json-xml.php
[72] http://www.scriptol.com/ajax/json-xml.php
<matt> scribe: Matt
Ronald: I'm not sure we should focus our efforts on the mapping, but
rather on the datamodel.
... We should choose one format for our internal discussion and
focus on that, rather than focusing on all of the mappings at once.
Let's look at the data model and pick one format, say, XML for doing
examples, etc. We can keep an eye on the mapping, but not try to do
the exercise of mapping it as we go.
... We do everything in JSON at Layar, but I can understand why you
wouldn't want to, for the fact that you'd invent namespaces on top
of JSON, etc.
Alex: I have this sneaky feeling that we're going to end up with
linkages between location entity, or any other sort of data, be it a
sound or a description or a 3d model. And that sounds a lot like
Linked Data and RDF.
... As long as the XML that we are writing can go to RDF, that seems
right.
Ronald: I agree. I see a real future in this linked data stuff.
Alex: I like the idea of describing it in XML to not overwhelm
people.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Group will work in XML, and not do the mappings
to other formats simultaneously, but keep mappings in mind as we go.
Alex: I'd like to talk to more people in Linked Data, and make sure
we're not missing something.
<danbri> proposal: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI
descriptions will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5,
JSON formats,
<danbri> often embedded within some surrounding format or spec. For
example, POI details might be described within HTML markup inside
KML XML, inside
<danbri> Atom, as part of OpenGraphProtocol RDFa in HTML, or in JSON
and JSONP Web APIs. The value of the WG's spec's will in large part
be related to
<danbri> their ability to communicate POI data across such
application boundaries, especially where extension information (eg.
categories, relationships)
<danbri> needs to be preserved.
<JonathanJ> +1
matt: +1
<Ronald> +1
<danbri> (nobody objected :)
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI
descriptions will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5,
JSON formats, often embedded within some surrounding format or spec.
<danbri> .... in fact [73]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
already goes a nice long way towards identifying those commonalities
[73] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
<scribe> scribe: Ronald
RESOLUTION: We should have just one normative mapping to use in the
document
<danbri> matt wants at least one concrete doc format that can be
canonical (at least within group's own discussions)
<matt> RESOLUTION: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI
descriptions will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5,
JSON formats, often embedded within some surrounding format or spec.
<danbri> (I don't mind which format so long as we've got a pluralist
deployment story)
<matt> RESOLUTION: The normative mapping included will be XML.
danbri: in the end back end developers will use their own
representation based on the abstract model
... they need to be able to read the spec
... don't assume people will have xml databases
ahill: let's continue with the summary of the core draft
... the time primitive, we still did not define fully
... question on whether it reflects the time when the washington
monument was created or the time when the POI was created in the
system
... a POI must have a location primitive. From geo, a POI only
exists when it has a location. From AR, we might not know where the
POI really is
carsten: a location isn't necessarily a coordinate
... we deal a lot with postalcode information, point information for
delivery
... when a new postalcode is created, we don't know the exact point
yet
... attribute indicating the POI is unmatched
... it is in this mall is a valid location
matt: we talked about having an "unknown" location, but we can
probably have an incredibly inaccurate location
ahill: there is a segway to relationships
... we have in the spec "undetermined" for location
... but there are relationships that can then determine the
location, e.g. a relation to the mall POI
... there is always a location primitive
... still need to clarify things a bit more
<danbri> (where's zakim gone?)
ahill: a lot of things are still to be decided
<matt> [74]Relationship Primitive
[74] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#Relationship_primitive
danbri: last year I defined a list of possible POIs. A lot of them
were event based. Are there relationships between events and places
<matt> [75]Danbri's list of potential POIs
[75] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Aug/0031.html
Ronald: is an event a POI or is it temporal data for the venue POI
ahill: maybe this is time for an issue
<danbri> Q: Do we deal with event descriptions (eg. movie
screenings) by making them POIs, or by describing their relationship
to POIs?
<danbri> 16:10 danbri: Q: Do we deal with event descriptions (eg.
movie screenings) by making them POIs, or by describing their
relationship to POIs?
<matt> ISSUE-5?
<trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- Do we deal with event descriptions (eg. movie
screenings) by making them POIs, or by describing their relationship
to POIs? -- raised
<trackbot> [76]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/5
[76] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/5
<danbri> (my dayjob is TV recommendations, so I have some interest
in this use case :)
<ahill3> aSD
<ahill3> ASDF
carsten: do you guys think a POI is an address?
... are we thinking in 3D or 4D?
... an address can be streetname and house number, or lower level
numbers specifying a location
<ahill3> what IRC server address in limechat?
<danbri> so I copied jacques RDF example into github repo ->
[77]https://github.com/danbri/Pogo/tree/master/checker/testcases/poi
.... made versions in 3 different RDF syntaxes: Turtle, N-Triples
and RDF/XML
[77] https://github.com/danbri/Pogo/tree/master/checker/testcases/poi
carsten: if we are thinking 3D, an event is probably not a POI, if
we are thinking 4D it might be
<JonathanJ> In Korea, we are developing the ARI(Augmented Reality
Identifier) spec that it extend to IETF's URN specification.
carsten: people tend to not look at the temporal aspect and just
create "static" POIs
... we have the chance to boost the time aspect
ahill: if you don't add a time element to a POI it is seen as
indefinite/static
matt: the temporal stuff we definitely have to address while
crafting the core draft
<danbri> proposal re temporal aspects: POI spec should allow for
temporal characteristics of the description/record (publication
date, 'coverage' / when it's true dates); and also of the payload,
including domain specific extensions such as shop opening hours,
movie show times, or historical periods for sites of touristic
interest.
ahill: a POI can have contained within or contains, adjecent to
relations
... they are defined between POIs
... must have a name primitive
... must have an id primitive
... lots of debate. Does a location have an id and are we reusing
locations when two POIs share a location?
... same for categories. Does a category need an ID
... does a POI have a single ID, or do all the element it contains
have IDs that can be referenced
<danbri> proposal2: any entities of interest should be able to have
IDs, and these should be allowed to be http:-based URIs
ahill: must have a categorization primitive. Everything has to be
categorized otherwise it has no value (from the Navteq perspective)
... open to debate, but it is in the current draft to trigger more
discussions and not forget about it
danbri: in RDF there is no must at all. It is a very passive
environment and you have to deal with what you have
... we can have best practice notes, but I feel unconfortable having
it in the core spec as musts
... The POI spec needs to have a temporal aspect on the POI data as
well as on the payload (opening hours)
ahill: there are 3 levels: opening hours, when did the restaurant
open, and when was the POI created
danbri: if we have ids on everything, we can offload the temporal
data to others
<danbri> -coffee needed-
<matt> [78]scratch pad for us to work on
[78] http://ietherpad.com/VVKVaoHANE
<danbri> test case fodder:
[79]http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski
[80]http://cinematreasures.org/theater/2314/
[81]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
[82]http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski
[83]http://www.cinemacontext.nl/id/B000030
[79] http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski
[80] http://cinematreasures.org/theater/2314/
[81] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
[82] http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski
[83] http://www.cinemacontext.nl/id/B000030
<danbri> and a movie showing
[84]http://www.pathe.nl/film/7717/the-kings-speech
[84] http://www.pathe.nl/film/7717/the-kings-speech
<danbri> times:
[85]http://www.pathe.nl/film/7717/the-kings-speech/agenda
[85] http://www.pathe.nl/film/7717/the-kings-speech/agenda
<danbri> ...
<matt> Scribe: Matt
IDs, Microformats, RDFa, Open Graph Protocol and Linked Data
Alex: Michael recommended URIs for us to use as IDs. How do we use
those?
danbri: If you are pointing to things anywhere on the Web, the URI
spec is the way. If you are looking at things within the document,
you might just have a local ID, and then a convention for --
alex: I hit this URI and get back XML?
danbri: Well, broken HTML.
alex: I mean, how does this jive with XML?
... I can imagine that I click on this link and it returns XML for
the King's Speech, but is that how an ID works?
... I'm thinking more like an XML ID attribute.
danbri: Within an XML document, depending on the format type, there
are different conventions for how you find these references. XHTML,
SVG, etc will all have their own.
alex: What is the role of IDs?
... A very simple standpoint, for example in KML. You can identify
things within the scope of your document.
... We had a proposal that URIs are the IDs.
... Are they IDs that were created by the author for internal use,
or URIs?
jacques: In OSM, it's unique for each node.
Carsten: We've had that for the last ten years, we issue our own
numbers and everyone using our data knew about them and it was
accepted. We're not going to change this particular product any time
soon. Geo data has national bodies in the UK.
... You want to use the data and mash it up with those other sets
out there, so URIs are obvious.
<JonathanJ> Can we maintain centralized and universal unique ID ?
danbri: There are two parts: within an XML document, how do you
identify things within itself and how do you point out?
... I can write "id='foo'" and someone can, on the Web compose a URI
from where the URI where the document lives, plus say a hash mark
and the ID.
... There's been a tendency to do it different in each spec, but XML
ID spec gives guidance.
<JonathanJ> XML ID spec [86]http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/ , XML Base
spec: [87]http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/
[86] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/
[87] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/
matt: We would take the URI used to fetch the XML doc itself and
combine it with the ID specified to give a unique ID to part of a
given POI.
alex: I'm a bit concerned that we think URIs are good, but the
details we don't get.
danbri: It's a bit fiddly.
... The linked data people tend to get excited about using HTTP URIs
to name things. Tim put a note out saying use http identifiers to
identify real things. People are excited about it, but I think we
can be agnostic about it.
... Tim said "we can use the hash to make it not be web pages", but
in the linked data context they can be used to reference people,
tables, etc.
<JonathanJ> I think we are also need URI like ID scheme
Alex: if I have a hash in a URI, who sees it?
matt: It depends on the client. A web browser won't send it.
danbri: Or you get back a bunch and then look through it to find it.
alex: But they could take the hash part out and search for the id
itself.
danbri: People take care to make sure that before the hash is enough
to be able to pick out the single entity.
... There was a ruling about this in the TAG. They said it's okay to
name a real world thing in a URI, but as long as it sends 303
redirect.
<danbri> 1. [88]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
[88] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
-> [89]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14 HTTP-Range
14 TAG issue
[89] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14
<danbri> 2. [90]http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski
[90] http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski
<danbri> 3. [91]http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
[91] http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
danbri: So, there's an HTML page that describes Tuschinski, then
there is a DBpedia page that describes the page, and then a third
one /resource/ that should give a 303
$ curl -D- [92]http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
[92] http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
HTTP/1.1 303 See Other]]
<danbri> curl -I [93]http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
[93] http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
<danbri> HTTP/1.1 303 See Other
Location: [94]http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski]]
[94] http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski
danbri: So, this does several things, it maintains a distinction
between the thing you are talking about and the description of it.
<Carsten> documentation about distinction between resource and page
at
location.defra.gov.uk/wp.../Designing_URI_Sets_for_Location-Ver0.5.p
df
danbri: There's a tendency to try to use URNs for real world
objects, but you can't drop those into a Web browser and get
something back.
... isbn://12312344 is a URN for example
<Carsten> correction:
[95]http://location.defra.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Designin
g_URI_Sets_for_Location-Ver0.5.pdf
[95] http://location.defra.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Designing_URI_Sets_for_Location-Ver0.5.pdf
<JonathanJ> URI scheme - [96]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme
[96] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme
danbri: What we see on dbpedia is one of the two main paths you can
take for identifying a real world object. Either "#blah" or have
this HTTP redirect dance.
... In which case you have something that looks like a URI link but
you only find out by fetching it.
[[<MYPOIFORMAT id="tushinski">
<name> bla blah</name>
</MYPOIFORMAT>
]]
matt: This would be served out of [97]http://example.com/tushinski
[97] http://example.com/tushinski
<danbri> so the full URI could be
[98]http://example.com/tushinski#tushinski
[98] http://example.com/tushinski#tushinski
danbri: There is a cinema in Amsterdam, it's name is Tushinski,
built in 1921.
<danbri> [99]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
[99] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
danbri: It is described by Wikipedia in a document whose URI is:
<danbri> [100]http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski
[100] http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski
-> [101]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski Tuschinski Wikipedia
Document
[101] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
danbri: There is also a web page published by the film corporation:
-> [102]http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski Tushinksi web page
[102] http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski
danbri: You can watch movies there.
Carsten: Is the home page about the movie, or the building?
Ronald: The home page is about the company in the building.
danbri: Going to the homepage, I get an embedded map showing where
the theater is and others from the same company.
Carsten: Do we see the POI?
danbri: This is a nice example of pointless information barriers.
Getting this into a navigation system is... fiddly.
matt: And how would we make it not fiddly?
danbri: Markup in the page using the POI standard could make a
machine readable description of where it is, etc.
ahill: I like that.
<danbri> <meta name="google-site-verification"
content="ewxq0ABm0oKTxJXMgwFYF3zVYTAH7iFbJZeQvpqY-Qw" />
<danbri> <meta name="keywords" content="Pathe, bioscoop, film,
amsterdam, rotterdam, den haag, eindhoven, helmond, groningen,
utrecht, munt, arena, schouwburgplein, utrecht, rembrandt,
metropole, filmagenda, bioscoop agenda, filmfocus, filmtheater,
arthouse, uitgaan, belbios, nederland bioscoop agenda, nederland
bioscoop, recensies, films, prijsvraag" />
matt: RDF also has a form called RDFa, where "a" is attributes. You
could have a similar thing in POI.
alex: How would would we do this?
danbri: We could put it in there, or put a link in via meta links.
<danbri> <meta name="description" content="Alles over Pathé
Tuschinski in Amsterdam. Actuele bioscoopagenda, trailers en koop je
tickets direct online.
<danbri> " />
alex: It could be something DBpedia returns with a 303?
... A meta tag with a URI or a bunch of URIs.
danbri: Or all the information we need could go in the page, or have
links to nerdy computer documents.
jacques_: But it would be using POI as a microformat?
danbri: It could be.
matt: I was just throwing that out there as something we could do,
but not that we must.
<danbri>
[103]http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://graph.danbri.o
rg/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
[103] http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
ahill: I just want concrete examples, don't care if it is right or
wrong.
<danbri>
[104]http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
[104] http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
<danbri>
[105]https://github.com/danbri/Pogo/blob/master/checker/testcases/og
p/geo1.cache
[105] https://github.com/danbri/Pogo/blob/master/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
<danbri> ... latter has mimetype text/html so you can see it in
browser
danbri: OGP is based on RDFa, it can be mapped to RDF and be used in
all of the RDF tools.
... Basically using meta they defined their own property types
"og:title" "og:type" "og:url" and "og:image", and then you want to
'leverage' the social graph, Facebook traffic, etc, you put that at
the top of your doc, then you put a bit of javascript and iframes.
... Whenever someone presses like, the facebook folks scrape this
info from the page.
... There are some basic geo things in there, like lat/long and
street address, etc.
... So now looking here:
[106]http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://graph.danbri.o
rg/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
... You can see we've extracted things from there.
... The good news this stuff is already happening, and it's got a
major social network pushing it.
[106] http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
ahill: We have a URI for each of those entities?
danbri: Well here we have some nitpicky things.
... The particular syntax that Facebook chose wasn't about the
restaurant itself but about the URI for the restaurant.
... Say there are two pages about the King's Speech, it could be on
RottenTomatoes or IMDB. And with OGP, you only have it in one place.
... They wanted it simple, something that you can cut and paste in.
They chose not to go the precise expressive route.
... In RDF you figure out what it's talking about by starting at the
top of the document, you might have <head
about="urn:ietfrestregistry43:"> and then the RDF parser knows to
change the subject of each statement it finds.
jacques_: We could consider RDFa representation of an XML format.
... We could use our own XML format and show it in RDFa.
ahill: I can't just take XML and stuff it into this webpage. It's
going to be interpreted as a markup tag by the browser.
danbri: Yes, putting XML inside this would not make XML or HTML
people happy.
... We'd be better linking XML from it rather than putting it in
line.
... Facebook is interested in putting some json, or more within the
body of the page.
... Similar to microformats.
... "Welcome to Fidel's fictional restaurant, we're located at
<newmarkupforaddress>1234 Mockingbird lane</newmakrupaddress>"
ahill: Is there any sort of established spec for doing what you just
described there?
danbri: There are bits and pieces on the microformat wiki. But this
probably has more traction.
ahill: Is this not wordy?
danbri: It is meta, so instead of "<meta property='og:countryname'>"
you could have "<og:countryname>", but that's not what they chose.
<JonathanJ> Support for RDFa in HTML4 and HTML5 -
[107]http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/
[107] http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/
<danbri> see [108]http://ogp.spypixel.com/Pogo/checker/
[108] http://ogp.spypixel.com/Pogo/checker/
<Carsten> For Ronald: link to OGC navigation paper:
[109]http://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=41727
[109] http://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=41727
->
[110]http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://www.rottentoma
toes.com/m/matrix/ Matrix movie info
[110] http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/matrix/
danbri: They've put facebook stuff in and google stuff in.
... the rdf.data-vocabulary.org is from google.
ahill: What's on the left?
danbri: the internal identifiers.
... So the "_:arc*" ones are just assigned internally by the parser.
<JonathanJ> see The Open Graph Protocol - [111]http://ogp.me/
[111] http://ogp.me/
<danbri> <div xmlns:v="[112]http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#"
typeof="v:Movie"> ...
[112] http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/
danbri: There's an ecosystem of laziness.
matt: Presumably there's a checker that you can type your URI into
and facebook or google will tell you what it sees.
danbri: If we get a nice clean format you could put stuff in an XML
file and then link to it, and then maybe have the conversation with
the Facebook and Google guys.
... Or embedding it in KML, or what have you.
ahill: We don't really have RDFa about a movie yet.
danbri: We don't.
ahill: The RDFa we're looking at isn't about the movie per se.
matt: It's not about an instance of the movie.
ahill: In my mind we're adding a little bit of stuff to glue this
together from a POI standpoint.
... some glue that in addition to all this information you can find
this as a POI.
danbri: The Web folks are getting better about having machine
readable information in the Web page.
matt: Adjourn!
cperey: Can we review tomorrow for new attendees?
matt: Sure. I think we should also during this week establish a
long-term way to capture our history. We have a blog that we can
use. I'd like to put it on the chair, but maybe we can rotate
through it.
... Now we're really adjourned!
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: andy to start drafting a response to OMA liaison
statement to agree with the idea of the liaison and to suggest that
they participate in our POI and AR discussion and try to converge
their technical specifications with ours [recorded in
[113]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: danbri circulate pointer to RDF WG JSON discussion
[recorded in
[114]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [115]scribe.perl version 1.133
([116]CVS log)
$Date: 2011/04/05 18:30:14 $
[115] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[116] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
POIWG 2011 F2F #1, Day 2
30 Mar 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Day_2
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-irc
Attendees
Present
Matt, Alex, Christine, Martin, Luca, Fons, Jacques, Jonathan,
Dan, Ronald, Thomas, Bertine
Regrets
Andy, Gary, Karl, Raj, Carsten
Chair
Alex, Matt
Scribe
danbri, matt, cperey, ahill, Ronald
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Recap
2. [6]Introductions
3. [7]AR Landscape Document
4. [8]Core Drafting: Time primitive
5. [9]Core Drafting: Category Primitive
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 30 March 2011
<danbri> yesterday's notes:
[11]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-irc
[11] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-irc
<danbri> draft minutes:
[12]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html
<matt> Scribe: danbri
Recap
discussing recap from yesterday
role/value of rdf
oh [13]http://blogs.talis.com/n2/archives/818 might be useful,
'Select the name, lowest and highest age ranges, capacity and
pupil:teacher ratio for all schools in the Bath & North East
Somerset district ' (uk open linked data example)
[13] http://blogs.talis.com/n2/archives/818
<martinL> test
<matt> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 30 March 2011
<JonathanJ> see yesterday's minutes :
[14]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html
[14] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html
JonathanJ, yes I think that might be useful. Perhaps in terms of
exploiting externally maintained data (e.g. school-related info)
<inserted> scribe: matt
Introductions
<danbri> ahill mentioning eg. from yesterday,
[15]http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/matrix/ ... not a POI but
potentially a movie showing in a local POI
[15] http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/matrix/
<danbri> ronald, see also
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Nov/0034.ht
ml
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Nov/0034.html
[[introductions around the table again]]
<danbri> 15 Gigs of OSM data: ftp://ftp.spline
-dontcrashyourbrowser- .de/pub/openstreetmap/planet-110323.osm.bz2
<scribe> Scribe: matt
Martin: I'm the CTO of Mobilizy/Wikitude.
Thomas: Bertine and I are working on an AR browser at a company
called LostAgain.
cperey: Who has implemented a browser?
[[everyone but Matt and Dan]]
<scribe> scribe: cperey
Matt: new agenda
<matt> ->
[17]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011
#Day_2 Day 2 Agenda
[17] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Day_2
<danbri> 'lost again': [18]http://www.lostagain.nl/
[18] http://www.lostagain.nl/
Matt: AR Landscape Drafts
... what Jonathan has put up and the AR vocabulary, to extend the
core work, what is the shape of this, get an editor
Alex: do we have room for AR Notes? Yes, Landscape Note is part of
what we will do
Matt: our charter
<matt> [19]POI Charter
[19] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/
Matt: first is POI recommendation. Then, the charter says that we
will produce two AR Notes. A note is slightly less rigorous thing
... could be published on our web site. Vocabulary to extend teh
core recommendation Might include presentational characteristics...
could include anything
... we have started the Vocabulary at all yet
... have NOT started yet
<danbri>
[20]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=AR_Landscape/Bro
wsers&action=history
[20] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=AR_Landscape/Browsers&action=history
Matt: we have AR Landscape.
<danbri> [21]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers
[21] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers
<matt>
<matt> scribe: matt
cperey: It's not a gap analysis document
... This is more of a product feature landscape an inventory of
what's in the products today.
... I'm looking to codify the standards that describe the different
functional blocks that AR uses.
<scribe> scribe: cperey
<scribe> scribe: matt
cperey: I think that this is will focus on those parts that are
about making AR on the Web. There may be scenarios where there is a
client.
<scribe> scribe: cperey
matt: this is just a starting point. we will discuss it. I think
this will evolve into a gap analysis of current standards wrt the
Web and AR.
Ronald: is this group chartered to look at the full range of AR?
... or are we going to focus on POI
Matt: we are broader than just the POI in this area
bit from the charter... Dan... we should begin the conversations
Matt: there is distinct possibility that when we get core draft
done, we can recharter
Alex: but I tihnk what Ronald is asking about is the AR note
<danbri> (so where are we collecting info about geo APIs: e.g.
[22]http://www.wikitude.org/en/developers [23]https://simplegeo.com/
[24]http://site.layar.com/create/
[25]https://github.com/sogeo/whatser [26]http://foursquare.com/apps/
[27]http://code.google.com/apis/maps/index.html
[28]http://code.google.com/apis/earth/ ...etc etc ...?)
[22] http://www.wikitude.org/en/developers
[23] https://simplegeo.com/
[24] http://site.layar.com/create/
[25] https://github.com/sogeo/whatser
[26] http://foursquare.com/apps/
[27] http://code.google.com/apis/maps/index.html
[28] http://code.google.com/apis/earth/
Alex: my feeling that the AR notes was restricted to what this group
is chartered to speak about
... what is the POI we are putting forward and how it applies to AR
<matt> danbri, I'd suggest adding them to:
[29]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Related_Specifications
[29] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Related_Specifications
Alex: if it includes talking about 3D, then great, it probably means
that talking about Device APIs, we don't need to cover the whole
gamut
... in some sense, a landscape of all existing browser is not a
requirement of our discussion, to understand how we go forward
... it is not necessarily in our charter that we cover all of that
depth
<danbri> 'The WG may also publish use case and requirements, primers
and best practices for Points of Interest as Working Group Notes. '
--[30]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/
[30] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/
Matt: should we look at list of mobile user agents on browser page
<danbri> (so if someone e.g. wanted to make a 'how real projects are
putting geo-related info in QR Codes, imho that'd be in scope for a
separate Note)
martin: supported platforms could be added to the tables
Matt: Jonathan how d you want to proceed?
Jonathan: I'd like to talk about the document
... as mentioned, the landscape is main document, browser document
is the details of one area
... I have discussed with many Korean people and community
... gathered many criteria so far
... first, is the comparison targets. I think we need to make a
narrow scope for AR apps
<danbri> (matt, ok I've added them to
[31]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Related_Specifications )
[31] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Related_Specifications
Jonathan: because too many applications in AR domain. We can make
technical specification for our standard. We need to narrow the
scope
... I have written the features. First the .. second, linking to web
services, third is rendering, fourth is...
... Collected a list in the document, about 13 products
... Christine made some comments. this are on the page
Alex: where do we the line? our browser is not commercially
supproted
... it is in teh iTunes store but anyone can make an application.
it's penetration is negligible but the features are important
because it demonstrates some of what we are talking about
... some applications/user agents don't codify AR, read it...
Thomas: the data standard must look at main commercial ones. because
if the standard can't do what they say that they do
Martin: mixare is downloadable, available outside of the laboratory
environment
Jonathan: need to consider extensibility
Alex: the list is probably right.
Martin: as soon as something is publically in use
Matt: we stop collecting when we have all the features covered
Alex: Google Goggles is AR
... Recognizes a POI
... information about the POI pops up
... it may have features
Thomas: API for visual recognition engine could be on their roadmap.
The feature that they have is one which AR browsers will have
Ronald: Visual Search and AR will merge
Martin: we can't separately Geo and Visual
Alex/Thomas: Nokia Point and Find should be added
<matt> ACTION: Jonathan to add Nokia Point and Find:
[32]http://pointandfind.nokia.com/main_publisher recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
[32] http://pointandfind.nokia.com/main_publisher
<trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Add Nokia Point and Find:
[34]http://pointandfind.nokia.com/main_publisher on Jonathan Jeon -
due 2011-04-06].
[34] http://pointandfind.nokia.com/main_publisher
<matt> ACTION: Jonathan to fix link for Wikitude [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Fix link for Wikitude [on Jonathan
Jeon - due 2011-04-06].
Alex: Nokia Point and Find at some point you could download it for a
phone
... some features I've seen demoed, are not available to everyone,
but worth looking at and considering again
<JonathanJ> I was referenced a good report from edinbergh univ. -
[36]http://mobilegeo.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/comparing-ar-browsers/
[36] http://mobilegeo.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/comparing-ar-browsers/
Alex: some of the things that Petros mentioned , aggregating POIs
into footprint of buildings
... street view like browsing
... so does StreetView belong on this list
Thomas: and you can use the gyro in your phone to see things
Alex: it's not strictly AR
but what should we be focused on?
<matt> [37]Petro/Nokia's position paper
[37] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Nokia_A_Web_Services_Platform.pdf
Alex: I want to say that the definition is not tight or exclusive to
keep StreetView and Goggles out
... these are close enough to be considered here
<matt> close ACTION-39
<trackbot> ACTION-39 Fix link for Wikitude closed
Alex: it's remote, browser based, worth considering
Thomas: AR is a potential output method, the same data can be viewed
on many different applications, in an AR form if appropriate
... non-issue what you call AR or not
Alex: and at some point there will be a maturation of this
definition
... like VR, lots of things expanded outside the original definition
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about qrcodes
Alex: It's a visualization method for POI
Dan: what about QR codes?
... I find AR unconstrained, it's fine, does lots of cool things
... useful for navigation in real time
... QR codes are quite well understood technoogy
... I'd like to make a pitch that they are in scope for this group
... I just want one standards thing taht is part of QR code
<matt> [38]GIST QR codes
[38] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/GIST_QRCode_for_AR.pdf
Thomas: AR should be small enough to act as a direct link to the
data
<matt> [39][GIST]QR_Code_Data_Representation_for_AR.pdf QR Code Data
Representation for AR
[39] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/
Thomas: QR code is very limited in what and how much it can store
Alex: I second what Dan is saying
<danbri> can we resolve unanimously that this group hopes to make
some contribution around the use of QR codes for POIs? (whether
documenting existing practice, or suggesting a design...)
Alex: for the notes, for us considering the implications of a POI
standard, this use case of seeing a QR code and sanpping it is
applicable
... it should be in scope
Martin: looking at the list, these are all mobile applications
... we should also include in scope non-mobile applications
... like Total Immersion things on desktop
Alex: but didn't you (Jonathan) want to restrict it to mobile
browsers
<danbri> re QR code capacity, see my thread last year
[40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2010Apr/0007.html on
lengths of URIs 'in the wild'
[40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2010Apr/0007.html
Alex: at the same time, you could imagine street view
... if you have been excluding it from the discussion is the wrong
thing to do
Thomas: it would be ludicrous if you had to pull down data from one
source for desktop and a different place for mobile
<danbri> oops wrong link.
[41]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2010Apr/0003.html 'URI
length statistics "in the wild"?'
[41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2010Apr/0003.html
Thomas: for content providers that would be a show breaker
... we want to avoid all the systems that labs have done but at the
same time, it is appropriate to include StreetView
Alex: I recommend that it be included in the list
Thomas: if you are dealing with image relative position, there is a
great advantage to including them
... at the end of the day it is a marker and a model (3D model) on
the marker
... a standard way of associating a marker and a 3D model regardless
of where it is would be useful
Jonathan: we need more time
Luca: my feeling for AR is that it is something that you put on the
real world
... for example, StreetView it is not exactly AR. Desktop can be
included as long as you use a webcam to put things in teh real world
<JonathanJ> It is not problem, what product is included or excluded
Luca: for me, for what I include when I think AR, it is display of
information on top of the real world. Google Maps is not AR. You do
not see the real world
<danbri> Luca, not everyone can see...
Alex: if you are walking down the street and you take away the
background
Jacques: you are switching from AR to mixed reaity
Dan: is AR only for people with good vision
Thomas: geo-located sound is in scope
Alex: he's talking about it is synthesized background. but if you
take away the backgrond ad you see the same content, the same
rendering engine is doing
... that is Ar
<JonathanJ> I don't think AR only for people with good vision.
Luca: because we don't have to be on the street for us to have AR
experience
... I don't want to say that only geo located can be AR. It can be
visual recognition, sensors, printers, etc all of this is included
and in scope
<JonathanJ> ISSUE: what AR is our scope
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-6 - What AR is our scope ; please complete
additional details at
[42]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/6/edit .
[42] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/6/edit
Alex: overall features.... is there anything on this list that
doesn't make sense. I see the idea. Does it have an SDK
... is it using Points of Interest?
Jonathan: I can see that filling out this table is going to get
messy. Everyone is going to be full of caveats
Thomas: what user interaction standards should be defined
... define a click action
Alex: for me the biggest differentiation is Web 1.0 and Web 2.0
... whether you can put your finger on it and stretch the world,
manipulate the model
... data representation is an important feature to add
... I think is of value. We use KML and HTML for Argon
... I don't know what Acrossair does
Martin: Acrossair is closed and proprietary system
Alex: edits into the document
Thomas: should the data representation be separate from the POI? Is
that important? Is that relevant to discuss
Alex: for first pass, we list what we know about these things.
... filling in the table
... does anyone at this table know anything about Google Goggles
data representation
Thomas: it is probably going to be like MapAPI
<martinL>
[43]http://www.junaio.com/publisher/examples/example/examples1/addon
/#example1
[43] http://www.junaio.com/publisher/examples/example/examples1/addon/#example1
Alex: how they do it. this is where the rubber meets the road
<fons> s/probsbly/probably
Ronald: you get XML back and you get a URL to which you can go
Alex: is that a POI? Did it return a POI?
Martin: is a POI tied to a location?
Alex: if I'm standing in front of building, and I shoot an image,
and I get the name of the building, have I got a POI?
... yes
Thomas: whatever links the real world to the virtual content is POI
Alex: I pick up my phone and I look at the courtyard and I see a
Polar bear. it is AR.
... nothing is there but a lot of people who argue it is a POI
... sometims these lines are difficult to draw
... we agree that kooaba is returning data and POI
Ronald: It's JSON. No ties to any other standards at this time
Alex: but the JSON is returning POI and data
... maybe because what we need is a column that describs how we are
triggering in some sense
... Have it in the table
... why don't we change user interaction
Dan: finish the column
... ovijet
... put proprietary
Jonathan: they are visual search
<fons> s/tey/they
Alex: what is sekaicamera
... it is social AR in geospace
... this doesn't answer the question of data representation
Sekai camera is also JSON
<matt> [44]Mixare JSON docs
[44] http://code.google.com/p/mixare/wiki/DisplayYourOwnData
Alex: wikitude
Martin: ARML, based on KML
Alex: when we say KML we mean XML
Thomas: the format is same but KML has things already sorted ,
already specifies location
Alex: what is the difference between name space and ...
... markup language
Dan: XML was born as a simplification of SGML
... it XML was created, they wanted to interleaved
<matt> xmlns is the default, prefix is the non-default ones
<danbri> re XML namespaces see
[45]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_namespace
[45] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_namespace
<JonathanJ> There are a missing point. I want to compare from 1st
cloumn (Data Representation) what they support 2D, 3D format.
Coffee break.
Alex: it's become obvious that we need to focus on our objective. We
don't have time to flesh out the document here
... we need to focus on what's available and how our POI standard
effect people who want to deliver AR
... how do we answer that
Matt:
<matt> [46]Snesor
[46] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_and_Device_Capabilities
Matt: technologies listed here. some with work going on in W3C
<JonathanJ> see
[47]http://www.w3.org/2011/02/mobile-web-app-state.html
[47] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/mobile-web-app-state.html
Matt: gyroscope work in progress
... microphone work in progress
Thomas: these are all very big things,
martin: there are other people doing work on these
... as a reference, we should point to others who are working on
this
Dan: I don't see video feed here
Jonathan: add camera input
Matt: add the applicable standards
Alex: where are we going to put this
<matt> scribe: ahill
thomas: should we separate device access standards from POI
standards?
<cperey>
[48]http://www.perey.com/Standards_for_Augmented_Reality_March_28.pd
f
[48] http://www.perey.com/Standards_for_Augmented_Reality_March_28.pdf
<matt> ACTION: matt to add links to existing standards
[49]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_an
d_Device_Capabilities [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action03]
[49] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_and_Device_Capabilities
<trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Add links to existing standards
[51]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_an
d_Device_Capabilities [on Matt Womer - due 2011-04-06].
[51] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_and_Device_Capabilities
<danbri> (finished editing now)
<cperey>
[52]http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Landscape_of_AR_topics.pdf
[52] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Landscape_of_AR_topics.pdf
agreed
thomas: what about user rotation in the POI spec?
ronald: we've discussed the orientation of content, but not the
orientation of the user
martin: we need to separate meta data of POI, geo-location and data
representation (visualization)
<matt> scribe: cperey
martin: we need a clear separation. We go to this point and not
further
Alex: I never felt that our responsibility would be to render teh
content
... the question is how do we facilitate teh data coming with the
POI
Thomas: there is some overlap, may want inline data with teh POI you
don't want to link to a remote text file if you want only a two
line...
Bertine: maybe a CSS?
Alex: we all have in our minds, ideas of POIs that include lable and
description
... you're saying that's so cannonical that we don't want an extra
standards for describing that
... does this argue that there should be a place in teh standard to
relate that?
Thomas: you wouldn't embed a JPEG in an HTML page
... same with a model. If you have a short bit of text it makes more
sense for it to be in line
... it has to be related
... needs to be standard for a simple label annotation. It needs to
be in a Standard
Ronald: we have name primitive in our browser
... style sheet is not directly part of POI Spec
... you can say that POI Spec has a couple of fields but up to the
specific browser to show content of a particular type
Thomas: but does the creator of content want to specify how it is
visualized?
Ronald: yes, but not in the POI spec
... the question is if it is part of POI. Or if you have a link to
the visualization within the POI
ThomasL should POI include a class reference
Martin: KML does something like that
Essentially what you have is an XML represetnation of a POI
Martin: do we define a new POI standard. KML defines almost
everything we have talked about
... our proposal is to eliminate all of the stuff we do not need in
AR
... we pull the KML tags we need and we add AR tags we need
Alex: let's say that the way you describe coordinates, if you
disagree with that then you would be leaving the standard
Thomas: simple differences like Lat vs. Latitude
Alex: funny to hear say that. Dan was showing how we could put RDFa
into a web page. Lots of angle brackets. Seems a little verbose
... point of view, perspective changes the definition of "verbose"
probably not worth it for us to invent another way to represent
Alex: at some point we are going to need to peruse other standards
and come up with ways to improve them
WGS84, etc
Alex: we need to get down to brass tacks and say who's description
we are adopting and what we think it is going to look at
<matt> trackbot, close action-40
<trackbot> ACTION-40 Add links to existing standards
[53]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_an
d_Device_Capabilities closed
[53] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_and_Device_Capabilities
Alex: wouldn't necessarily throw out KML if verbose, if millions of
people are using it
Thomas: you establish key value pairs and maybe in a few year's
time, the changes may come
Matt: eXdInterchange
<danbri> re XML compression, see
[54]http://www.w3.org/TR/exi-evaluation/ Efficient XML Interchange
Evaluation
[54] http://www.w3.org/TR/exi-evaluation/
<matt> [55]Efficient XML Interchange WG and specs
[55] http://www.w3.org/XML/EXI/
<danbri> "This Working Group Note is an evaluation of the Efficient
XML Interchange (EXI) Format 1.0 with reference to the Properties
identified by the XML Binary Characterization (XBC) Working Group,
relative to XML, gzipped XML and ASN.1 PER. It is conducted using
the XBC Measurement methodology. "
<JonathanJ> matt, I think we need cooperate with DAP -
[56]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Mar/0
029.html
[56] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Mar/0029.html
Alex: back to KML, we were talking about representation.... I'm
not... not to say it's not the right way to approach it but in our
KARML version, we take desription tag
and it is HTML. YOu can have styles. Put some text in and browser
would render as a default, but you can add HTML for presentaiton.
You could imagine extending , add some SVG instead
Alex: so in that case, now the data is inline with the POI
... the isue is that in some circumstances we want a link to
presentation data. so effectively, we get the POI data, it has a
link to Web Page, and that's the data we want to present in AR
... yesterday we were looking at the entire web page. bottm line is
the minimal set that we want to allow people to inline
Dan: there are part of the HTML ....
you can ask it to bring back a really simple version
Dan: can't remember the header names. At the HTTP level thre's a
whole set of ...
<matt> alex: How common is content negotiation?
matt: very common, gzip
<matt> matt: Depends on the content types. For instance, most
browsers support saying "I accept HTML, and gzipped HTML" -- this is
widely deployed.
content negotiation, if we define a format with its own MIME type,
one of its characteristics could be its compressed
Dan: wikipedia might implement it
<danbri> see [57]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_negotiation
[57] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_negotiation
Ronald: web servers also try to figure out what type to send
Alex: but that's not reducing what gets sent, it is an efficiency
Thomas: yes it is
Martin: one question return to. What metadata
... do we really need a separate POI Standard separate from what
already exists? can't we just pull out what we need form KML?
Marin: what tags would we really need?
Alex: we agree with you in general
Matt: we would take a profile of GML and augment with our specific
vocabulary
Thomas: we need metadata. If there's an existing standard we should
use it
<danbri> (re existing standards, also
[58]http://www.georss.org/Main_Page [59]http://geojson.org/ )
[58] http://www.georss.org/Main_Page
[59] http://geojson.org/
Alex: we only chose KML because it was the broadest adopted markup
Not because we said it was the most/best
Alex: so yes, if you say GML, I agree
... I imagine in the future what we are adding to the dialog is
quite small
matt: Yes, it could be a profile of GML.
Martin and Alex are in agreement
<JonathanJ> s/profiel/profile/
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to assert that extensions shouldn't be an
afterthought
Dan: yeah there's all these existing standards
... we've already begun picking up common elements
... story how they are the same is useful. Strongest we can do is
extensibility
... figuring out the specific use cases, to specify how different
datasets are represented
... connecting hop between what other's do and what AR does/needs is
what we can do
Thomas: ...
... it needs to be automatically coming up when the conditinos are
right
Dan: value adding services need to be able to bring out their data
and the people to publish POI data to provide connections between
their data and other data without W3C coming up with new vocabulary
Thomas doesn't need to define a movie database format
Dan: example of semantic markup,
<matt> scribe: Matt
ahill: When you say linked data is the way to go, can you describe
it? I'm walking down the street looking for particular data, and
you're talking about returning links?
Thomas: machine readable links.
ahill: My browser could follow these links and add information from
these databases. We don't need to reinvent how to do that by any
means.
... What do we need to do to facilitate this?
... Some people might argue that we would need a registry to
facilitate these things.
Thomas: I don't think so.
danbri: Maybe at a high level to bring them all together, but the
Web is it's own regsitry.
<JonathanJ> see Linked Data -
[60]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_Data
[60] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_Data
danbri: I'm walking along and my phone is relating my location to
some service. I get a notification that there is a movie playing
nearby with actors you like in it.
ahill: My project is relaying this to proxies who then go find this
information out, rather than from the device directly.
... What is the difference between agent based semweb stuff and AR?
thomas: I don't think there is one.
ahill: Good, rather than reinvent the wheel we can piggy-back on
other efforts.
cperey: I want to throw a monkey wrench in this: you haven't paid
for this information. There should be a token to authorize that
agent. It's not all just for free.
-> [61]http://ietherpad.com/VVKVaoHANE scratch pad
[61] http://ietherpad.com/VVKVaoHANE
cperey: Then there are ethics, laws. Is this person looking for
illegal stuff?
... I just looked at a building and it had one picture, but now it
has another, who has the rights for changing that?
Thomas: I don't think that's up for us to implement it.
cperey: Don't you want it in a standardized fashion?
Thomas: There are already standards for these things, SSL,
certificates, etc.
cperey: Then we need to write that there are other standards that we
could use.
ahill: I don't see the AR uniqueness here. So we don't have to worry
about it then.
Ronald: There are security standards.
ahill: People are solving those problems already.
cperey: People aren't solving the problem of predatory real-estate.
Thomas: There's not going to be a one-to-one relationship, the user
choses to accept whatever datapublisher they wish.
... If I use a mail service, I'm going to have their ads, that's
known. Whatever source we use is going to be responsible for the
adverts, etc.
ahill: Another thing we're doing in Argon is offloading to the proxy
server under the acknowledgement that search becomes a bigger issue
when you walk over to a place and it has 1000 POIs, that's a mess.
Your trust network, who your friends or whatever, is really going to
affect it.
... We have to acknowledge that at one location there will be a
large number of things people have vied to get there.
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to say 3 things before brain fills up: i)
thinking about incentives is good; in my simple scenario, tushinki
haveincentive to get customers ii) those are real
danbri: You're right to think about incentives. In the movie case,
they want customers. If we do something as simple as Facebook,
they'll get customers.
... The social issues exist. We'll have to look at them.
... And last, oauth is a big piece of this. They want their app to
work and be deployable to lots of devices. OAuth seems to be the
solution of choice at the moment for that.
Thomas: I think there is a lot of power to come from it. I don't
think it's up to us to decide on that.
... The spec shouldn't require a third part auth.
Ronald: Responding to Christine's suggestion to standardize the too
much content problem: I'm not sure that's really feasible. Are
search engine results standardized in how they order things?
... No. That area of discovery of information, I'm not sure it's
standardizable.
... It's a real problem for AR, but not necessarily one that gets
solved by standardization.
Thomas: It's a big issue and so much room for innovation that I
think that is where clients will differentiate.
cperey: How do you formulate the query could be standardized, but
not how the response is formulated.
... When I heard query POI I was thinking: "Oh, that's talking about
a directory of POIs", which isn't the same thing as querying.
... "These are my circumstances, here's a query for that" vs a
directory of layers/channels.
<danbri> (ahill, if someone queries for Amsterdam Red Light
District, their AR service(s) should route them to
[62]http://www.coe.int/t/DG2/TRAFFICKING/COMICS/ )
[62] http://www.coe.int/t/DG2/TRAFFICKING/COMICS/
<danbri> (but that's a marketplace thing)
Ronald: In the end from our findings, it was quite difficult to get
to something that the user really valued.
ahill: With them being the authority.
... No one on the web has defined how to index content in a
standardized way.
cperey: There's SEO. In libraries we used the Dewey decimal system
and found that to be useful.
bertine: I think the difference with the library example is that
books are static.
Thomas: It could start off fantastic and then get swamped with ads.
... The order shouldn't be defined, but the request could be, is
that right?
Martin: Web pages care about being ordered, but that's all search
engine based.
Ronald: There is part of the HTML specification with keyword
metadata.
... That gives content providers a way to find the right
information.
ahill: Sounds like when possible we could leverage such things.
Thomas: metadata on the Web isn't useful anymore, hard to trust.
... search engines basically ignore metadata these days.
ahill: That's a shifting tide thing though. Might have been useful
years ago though.
<danbri> google do use
[63]http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/05/introducing-r
ich-snippets.html
[63] http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/05/introducing-rich-snippets.html
ahill: So how do we standardize around it?
Thomas: There will likely be AR search engines that look into the AR
data and figure out if it's being abused.
<danbri> (you need another signal for trust and quality, eg. google
rank, or facebook LIKE, ... then metadata can be exploited)
cperey: Is this matching our agenda?
matt: Is it what the group wants to talk about?
ahill: I think we should talk about these things now.
... I think the tone is that AR is going to be visually based. I
think people see that as something very different than the kind of
AR we have today.
... I think the points where these things come together is maybe
location and description.
... Take the visual sensor example. I'm agnostic about the sensor.
cperey: That whole thing is heavily what the interface that the
sensor web folks worked on.
Thomas: That's why I like to call them triggers.
... I'd argue that the POI has to contain the trigger.
matt: I don't understand why trigger has to be a unique part of the
structure?
Ronald: I think we said that the trigger is part of the location
primitive, maybe not using that word.
<JonathanJ> I'd like to suggest to make another document, something
like "Requirements and Use Case for Linked POIs" by danbri
ahill: I could do a search around me and get 100 POIs around me, one
of them is this cup. Some people want to call this a trigger, some
people like me want to just say "I have the means to know I am in
front of this cup".
Thomas: The difference I see is the metadata what you use to search
with, while the trigger is an automatic thing.
... For instance the only ones that are in the field of view are
triggered.
danbri: It's not up to the objects to determine that.
<cperey>
[64]http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/MOB_PatternsOfInterest_Proposal
.pdf trigger position paper
[64] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/MOB_PatternsOfInterest_Proposal.pdf
ahill: Looking at a web page there's a ton of links. You scroll down
and click on any of these things with the mouse. The triggers thing
seems to be a way to simplify that, but it's more complicated than
that, I could have preferences, etc.
Thomas: I'm thinking it's just more of a passive thing. Something
that appears merely by association. A browser may or may not display
them. I think there's a clear differentiation between active and
passive things.
<cperey>
[65]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Dec/0011.ht
ml trigger by Thomas
[65] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Dec/0011.html
martinL: I think location then is a trigger as well.
matt: Why isn't any data in the POI a trigger?
Ronald: It sounds like search criteria.
Thomas: While you could search to have something appear
automatically, it's not automatic. I search and don't get all of
those results popping out all at one time.
<JonathanJ> POIs could be crawlable by search engine ?
Thomas: With AR there's a lot more automatic than the Web. We can't
just have users activating everything manually.
<cperey>
[66]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Aug/0053.ht
ml in the public mailing list
[66] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Aug/0053.html
Thomas: I think it's the association of where the content creation
believes the data should be put, whether it's image/location/sound
based. That's slightly different than what the user wants to see at
any given time.
ahill: Imagine there's a landscape with one item. The author
specifies where it is, what it looks like,etc. That's AR, I don't
need the word trigger yet to filter that.
... I need an argument for the word trigger now.
Thomas: I think you need a way to represent the association.
... A way to associate the data you want and an intended location.
martinL: Alex said filter, I like that, that's essentially what it
is.
cperey: no!
ahill: We're talking about filter at one place, and then this
trigger that describes the POI that is there.
bertine: It's trigger like a landmine, not a trigger like a gun.
Thomas: We can call it something else if trigger is confusing.
danbri: I found it confusing on the mailing list.
ahill: It's a linkage between place and content.
Thomas: I'd say it's part of the linkage.
... There's two parts: what causes it and what goes to it.
... The trigger is what causes you to go to it.
danbri: So is it up to the client to recognize the class of thing?
Thomas: Yes.
ahill: Is this linkage a POI that the spec is to connect data (SVG,
HTML, COLLADA models) to a context of the user. That is our charge.
... Then when you talk about seeing a pen and using a trigger, it
makes it confusing.
... A lot of people think "I see this and something is going to
happen" -- that's a somewhat different subject.
<danbri> 'trigger' for me has a strong imperative reading, ... that
the 'triggering' is inevitable
Thomas: The POI is a link between real and virtual.
... I was using trigger or whatever the word is to indicate the
category of the sensor that you're correlating to.
ahill: So, there is a unique item, if I got a description of how to
recognize it visually, I could dereference that eventually to the
exact location on this table and then it's just like a movie
theater, or whatever.
... So it's the same, but a different matter of how we get there.
... Then there's the example of "every pen that looks like this" --
which is a reasonable use case, but to me it's more of a pattern
than a trigger to me.
<JonathanJ> POI trigger is like this ? -
[67]http://www.azouk.com/218107/Context-information-as-enhancement-f
or-mobile-solutions-and/
[67] http://www.azouk.com/218107/Context-information-as-enhancement-for-mobile-solutions-and/
ahill: Now, say every building from a company sets aside an area for
AR, and that's a pattern. Buses could have a sign on the side --
Thomas: How do you find it if the data isn't there in the POI?
ahill: I know I'm in a store, I look at my coordinates, dereference
and I'm done.
Thomas: But that store is static. This is ludicrous, then the bus
must relay it's coordinates to a server then the client has to fetch
it.
... I have nothing against publishing moving coordinates.
... I also think that POIs should be able to specify relative
coordinates. I just don't think you can limit it to just the
coordinate space.
ahill: This just isn't unique to the domain of visual recognition. I
think we will use visual recognition, I'm just saying that visual
triggering can happen the same way by other means
... I'm more inclined to push it towards a special case in some
sense.
Thomas: To me we need both. The most basic visual recognition is QR
codes. That's literally just an image that is then decoded to a URL.
ahill: But that's not a trigger, that's just a linkage.
Thomas: We're associating an image with data, that's just as useful
as associating coordinates, whether static or moving.
... The POI needs the capacity for both.
ahill: We need both, but they're not different enough in my mind
that they can't be handled.
Thomas: I'm just saying a field in the POI that has coordinates or
an image.
ahill: This is what Ronald was alluding to, that a location could
have a visual description of pen.
Ronald: And it can be a combination of geo and visual too.
cperey: How it's stored is part of the POI, but not what is in
there.
Ronald: Sure, the algorithms will change, etc.
cperey: The device which detects those conditions on behalf of a
user, whether mobile or stationary, is using sensors.
ahill: Something like identifying a particular pen could have a
number of criteria, so how do you author it. My sensor is going to
be picking up that pen all over, but it's not necessarily going to
be triggered.
Thomas: The system would have the image criteria already in it's
memory.
cperey: You're never looking at the real object, you're just
encoding those unique features that identify that class of object.
Only those features, so you have an extremely fine sample, you're
not walking around sending entire photographs of the pen around to
be detected.
Ronald: Most of the time you're sending an image from the mobile to
a server.
Thomas: There can be client side recognition.
cperey: But the point is the server side would probably just
maintain the extracted features for recognition.
ahill: if I want to recognize this computer, I take multiple image
that then get distilled down to something recognizable.
<Carsten> Morning, just wanted to have a quick look at what you guys
are doing
martinL: I don't think there's a chance of standardization there as
under different conditions have different better algorithims.
<danbri> (lunch-7.5 mins and counting....)
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to discuss pre-lunch recap. Any actions
arising?
danbri: Where are we? We've been chatting, but what action items are
coming out of this?
cperey: We've been here before, and we've had people with agendas
from geo-physical data that they want to solve.
ahill: And they didn't want this in scope.
matt: That's not what I saw at the last f2f.
cperey: In the next few minutes, the composition of the people in
the group has shifted a bit. And it can shift back.
ahill: This is the part of the meeting where we are addressing AR
stuff. We are talking about what are the implications? How does the
POI stuff relate to AR?
cperey: This is entirely in scope as the subject of long/lat.
... And the traditional problems of those who own large POI
databases?
ahill: Our existing spec solves that. It allows the POI database
folks to add WGS 84 coord and a name/description/ec.
... Our existing spec also allows for a pen POI with a visual
description and an unknown location.
<danbri> (this is a good time to have people make commitments to do
things, and to record those in the issue tracker. I'd be happy to
take an action to summarise what I could find out about encoding of
URIs in QR Codes, for example)
ahill: In my mind I've got a search that includes "pen's that belong
to Layar" -- I have those POIs, but I may not be displaying them. To
me that's not any different than a POI that's on a building over
there that's occluded by a building over there.
... I don't see it as any different than things popping in there.
Thomas: 99% of the time they'll be preloaded, there is a lot of
precaching and displaying later.
ahill: You're interests, your context at the moment, those things
all determine context that determine which POIs are in my browser
currently.
danbri: If this room has a POI, there's a URI to it.
Thomas: QR code could be the link.
<scribe> ACTION: danbri to summarize URIs in QR codes to POIWG group
[recorded in
[68]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Summarize URIs in QR codes to POIWG
group [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-06].
ahill: In my mind our spec at the moment could work for a QR code
with linkage to some data.
... I could imagine a QR code being the equivalent of a pen being
recognized.
Thomas: There's also the case where the QR code could contain the
POI itself, QR codes don't have to be links.
ahill: Practically what is happening? I see a QR code, it's got a
URL, I get back a POI. It needs to be linked to something physical,
maybe it's a marker to track, or the QR code itself, or four inches
from the phone. That's the POI, the QR code is a specific means to
encode the URL and there's a separation there.
Thomas: I am seeing a scenario where the QR code decodes to a link
which has a POI which then may link to the 3D model.
... But the QR code could be just the POI itself and go directly to
the 3D model.
<JonathanJ> QR code can encode in other many information bytes.
ahill: I see that you want to be pragmatic about the links followed
etc, but I'm not sure that's what we need to accomodate in our
charge.
Thomas: Perhaps not specifically, but it would be nice.
... We're talking a minimal spec and lots of optionals. Maybe the
small thing could be in a QR code.
ahill: In our lab we worked with markers for ever, and now they're
totally out. We recognize full-on images, which doesn't have any
data encoded in those images. I could imagine that some day if we
did push for QR codes that people would laugh at us in the future.
Thomas: I see advantages to not having the data require a separate
lookup.
ahill: I think no one here wants to create a byzantine set of links.
... We've had a lot of discussion but no consensus.
<JonathanJ> we need raise issues
ahill: I think we can resolve that our POI standard that we've put
forward accommodates many different scenarios.
... Whether it handles triggers, image recognition, etc. I've
resolved in my mind that we haven't excluded any of those things. We
haven't excluded any representations too, like COLLADA models, or
HTML.
... I think that's valuable, as someone always pipes up on something
like this and then we have the discussion again. I don't think we
should have to do this conversation again.
<danbri> do we agree? "...that there are lots of ways of identifying
relevant POI descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image
recognition (of specific things, of types of thing, of places,
people, RFIDs. W3C POI data should be easily associated via various
such techniques, and not be rigidly tied to any particular
association mechanism."
<JonathanJ> +1
<Ronald> +1
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: There are lots of ways of identifying relevant
POI descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image recognition (of
specific things, of types of thing, of places, people, RFIDs). W3C
POI data should be easily associated via various such techniques,
and not be rigidly tied to any particular association mechanism.
<Luca> +1
<cperey> +1
<JonathanJ> s/%1D//
Thomas: future issue: are the different criterias and-ed or or-ed?
<danbri> ... not hearing any objections; are we resolved?
ahill: True. I think people handle lots of this sort of thing in
code. I think if people want conditions... they write code.
RESOLUTION: There are lots of ways of identifying relevant POI
descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image recognition (of
specific things, of types of thing, of places, people, RFIDs). W3C
POI data should be easily associated via various such techniques,
and not be rigidly tied to any particular association mechanism.
Thomas: It's a fair point that we don't want to go into the logic
too much.
... If you make a web page you don't have to code the functionality
of a link. Metaphorically we're working on the equivalent of that,
right?
ahill: I won't disagree with that. We're trying to provide some
structure that keeps people from writing code to present data.
cperey: Is this called a "data format"?
... Because the OMA folks said specifically say they're considering
doing an AR data format.
... I think these two words have universal meaning.
ahill: I'm concerned about making such a statement that is someone
will say "POI is not an AR data format". I'd be inclined to say that
our POI data format can be used for AR and we have specifically
taken note of it. We haven't created a specific AR data format, but
we believe it could be applied to that.
<JonathanJ> "AR data format" can include anything
ahill: I'd be hesitant to say it's an "AR data format".
Ronald: There's a reason there's a Core data format.
matt: And part of that is because there are other things that will
use the POI format without being AR.
ahill: AR is the linkage format.
<danbri> [69]http://www.ics.uci.edu/~lopes/dv/dv.html
[69] http://www.ics.uci.edu/~lopes/dv/dv.html
<danbri> another use case where the publisher has incentive to be
found: Best Buy stores: [70]http://stores.bestbuy.com/153/
[70] http://stores.bestbuy.com/153/
<danbri> ACTION: danbri identify relevant specs for
rotation/orientation included at point of photo/video creation -
what is current practice? [recorded in
[71]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Identify relevant specs for
rotation/orientation included at point of photo/video creation -
what is current practice? [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-06].
<danbri> eg scenario: I'm stood in middle of Dam Square, looking
(west?) towards the palace, running e.g Layar + a flickr layer.
Would it be useful to show only photos that are taken facing that
same direction, ie. showing the palace and stuff behind it, ... or
also the things behind me (Krasnapolsky hotel...)?
<JonathanJ> geolocation WG have been making the orientation spec. -
[72]http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
[72] http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
matt: I see this:
[73]http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/exif-orientation.html
... but it appears to be just about the image orientation.
... iPhone appears to capture in EXIF the data:
"Exif.GPSInfo.GPSImgDirectionRef", from:
[74]http://gallery.menalto.com/node/97763
[73] http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/exif-orientation.html
[74] http://gallery.menalto.com/node/97763
-> [75]http://www.exif.org/Exif2-2.PDF EXIF 2.2 spec includes
GPSImgDirectionRef and GPSImgDirection
[75] http://www.exif.org/Exif2-2.PDF
<danbri> matt, thanks I'll read
<danbri> i made a test image
[76]http://www.flickr.com/photos/danbri/5573454469/in/photostream/
but maybe i have geo turned off
[76] http://www.flickr.com/photos/danbri/5573454469/in/photostream/
<scribe> Scribe: cperey
<danbri> matt, re
[77]http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2010/06/16/why_we_chose_mercurial
_as_our_dvcs/ ... how do we go about getting a filetree for a
testcases repo?
[77] http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2010/06/16/why_we_chose_mercurial_as_our_dvcs/
I'll scribe for an hour
when are we going to finish March 31? at 6 PM
Matt: we are moving the AR vocabulary to the end, in order to begin
working on POI core spec page
... is there anything in the Landscape since last time we reviewed
the AR landscape?
Alex: what are we going to do? don't want to go through item by item
AR Landscape Document
<matt> [78]Landscape Document
[78] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Draft
Alex: we should move on
Matt: get into core drafting, do more of this tomorrow when we have
a better understanding of what's in/out of the core.
Alex: Or dedicate a future teleconference to it.
Core Drafting: Time primitive
<matt> [79]Agenda again
[79] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Day_2
Matt: questions about the core draft
... we should deal with these up front, some we dealt wth yesterday
Ronald: are we trying to split up the work?
... can different people take more focus on specific sections?
Alex: maybe we should take the easier items and get them out of the
way
... get the ball rolling with Time and Categorization. It also gives
us a process.
Matt: we look at requirements of each primitive
Alex: if we do that as a group, then it's a shorter list
... we have (after Time and Cat) Relationship Primitive-- not
something to be done in a smaller group
... then we have location, which is core
Thomas: agree that we need to work together
... Location is low hanging fruit already
Alex: Time establishes the format of what we are going to write
<matt> [80]Core Draft
[80] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
<danbri> matt can/should I bug sysreq for a poiwg repo? for
testcases etc (and specs eventually...)
Alex: we might start with something circumspect
... location can get messy
Ronald: agree that location is pretty complex
Alex: begin with time
<matt> [81]Time primitive
[81] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#time_primitive
Alex: POI must--> can have a time primitive
... could be time when business is opened and closed
... that is relegated to metadata, not the primary function of POI
... time when this POI was created. This falls in provenance
... time that this thing came into existence.
... it's not obvious that every POI needs to come into existence and
left
Thomas: if you say that something exists in this range of time, you
are saying that we will move the user forward and backward in time
Alex: Google earth (KML) has a time stamp and time Span
<matt> [82]KML Time primitive
[82] http://code.google.com/apis/kml/documentation/kmlreference.html#timeprimitive
Alex: Time Stamp says when and a date
... Time Span has a beginning and an end
... this is used in Google earth, to slide back in time to see
content in past
... that's about the extent that we need to define
Thomas: suggestion that we have one more, ideally, time stamp of the
last time the data was updated.
... it is useful for the client to know if they need to download it
again or not
Expiration date
Thomas: it is a form of time which is useful
... Modification time
Ronald: might be better to put this in the metadata primitive
<matt> [[what about recurring time sets? (e.g. open hours) or
relative times? (a store has open hours relative to the hours of the
mall it is in)]]
Alex: this is where the conversation has gotten baroque
... lots of attributes you might want to stamp
... let's say some linked data has a date stamp
Thomas: technical level it is only necessity to have this type of
time stamp in the linked data
Alex: how many links are we limiting a POI to?
Thomas: thinking it was One
... if it is more than one, it could be a time stamp per linked data
Alex: we ask for header, pull out o fheader, say no I don't want the
data. Ct short the request, inspect the header
Thomas: COLLADA, X3D don't have those types of headers, may be wrong
on that
Alex: is that our scope? to provide mechanism for lInk data to
provide an expiration data
Ronald: don't think so. I'm not sure it is valuable. Adds too much
complexity. In Layar we have.... to all the links (do they all need
modification time stamp)
... in our concept they are all linked to the same POI
Thomas: i don't want clients to constantly update/download big files
to see if it has been updated recently or not
Matt: HTML has this distinction
... it gets messy
We need a data modification
Ronald: in Layar definition, we have a single modificaation time and
that it applies to all the data
Alex: concerned that utility might be limited. People might
over-ride it. Head did not really capture what we wanted
Thomas: adamant that either it is possible to do this without time
stamp, if it can't be done, it has to be there
... if not possible to do in header, it HAS to be in POI
... this could cause huge problems down the road.
Alex: that's a good argument for time modification time stamp, time
span, time of applicability, could have a beginning and end
Matt: when this is being served over HTTP, these headers.... and any
other transport mechanism must similarly
<danbri> (ok i've requested a poiwg repo for testcases etc to be
added at [83]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg ... time to read the Mercurial
manual...)
[83] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg
Alex: if other POI query other links, they want to be able to send a
time stamp to you to relect how recently the underlying digital
object has been updated
<matt> matt: Basically, I think we should say "if you are
transporting POIs over HTTP, you should be setting these X,Y, Z
headers with the appropriate values. Other transport mechanisms
should likewise provide such information."
matt: If I got a POI and it indicated that something has been
changed, then it is my responsibility to go through and check each
and to identify which elements have been updated
Alex: save the consumers of this data having to go through the
subsegments and check this "manually"
Jacques: this is a basic feature of collaborative AR
Alex: can you please expand or give an example?
Jacques: for example, for guidance application, someone is outside,
blind person, and you are looking in VR on a map, and you want to
change some audio POI
... so you need to know when the audio POI can be changed
Alex: there's just me
Jacques: the expert is remote
the person in teh field
Jacques: you can change the content of a POI
Alex: there's a POI, and we want a way to indicate that the user
(remote person changed the POI) that the content has changed
the browser needs to know that the content has changed
Alex: the POI has changed, how does the browser find out about it?
Thomas: this is a pull or push thing. This is web page expiration.
... if you are using a different protocol, it is not for us to
decide which protocol i sused.
<JonathanJ> I think it seems like POI trigger, or POI pushing
Thomas: any additional downloads are the result, not the ....
Matt: the information about the delivery of the POI goes OUTSIDE of
the POI itself
... It's in the envelope
Thomas: if can is virtual. and the person decides to move it. Change
the POI location. It would not change the mesh of the can.
... So therefore the client would not be redownloading it, it would
download the POI data but not the attached model
Ronald: we are talking aout the modificaiton time
Alex: we have the POI. The model has changed teh same. Location has
been updated. Does the POI modification time change?
... the POI is in the local agent. Either I need to poll it or it
needs to be pushed to me
Which?
Thomas: you don't need to transmit the update time
... just needs to communicate that the .... has been updated
Alex: look at a POI and knowing when it was updated sounds fine,
but...
Thomas: The header may be a way to do this.
... the client may need to check to make sure if it has been updated
Alex: isn't that what happens already?
... in the web browser?
Thomas: the server gives recommendations about when to refresh
Martin: there are metatags
Alex: there's a big image, already local (cache) is it not pretty
much the case that you have to tell the browser, hey that changed
... the image doesn't have meta, no header, we don't have a
mechanism for that
... that's a problem, but it is not clear that it is our problem
(yet)
<martinL> +1 for alex
Thomas: if it can't be done in the header, there's not another
solution than to have it in the POI recommendation
Alex: reluctant to shoe horn this into the POI spec
Ronald: do we really want to have changeable mesh models
Thomas: most of these things will be fairly static. Meshes will
probably be the same
... update time stamp is a simple solution
Alex: the problem is that it is a Macro, it is global to th POI, but
not specific to what part of it changed, so it doesn't really solve
the problem
Thomas; you need one orientation per link
Alex: no, I argue that you don't need that
... if there are multiple link, and oriented differently, but the
base the frame of reference from which they are, that's what a
single orientation accomplishes
... it sets down a frame of reference. It's not the billboarding
... it is that a single point in space... arbirtarily given is not
adequate
<Luca> etag or any metatagit's better to understand i something has
changed instead of timestamp that can't be unique for all the client
Alex: a discussion about time for POI, needs to be very specific.
What is it about POI that need time?
... what is inherent to POI?
<Luca> [84]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_ETag
[84] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_ETag
Alex: a time that this POI applies, whatever that means, that time
period is really the need for the POI
... In agreement that we should at least have that one
... this is where have to decide what we do now. Do we hunt around
for time specs?
Thomas: time span.... what time zone is it specified in?
<matt> [85]XML Schema 2 time section
[85] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#isoformats
Thomas: do we need to explicitly tell the client the explicity time
frame
<matt> [86]KML time primitive
[86] http://code.google.com/apis/kml/documentation/kmlreference.html#timeprimitive
Alex: KML uses time stamp, they use datatypes Second edition
<ahill> [87]http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#isoformats
[87] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#isoformats
Alex: ISO 8601 convention
... this time stamp assumes UTC. If it is not, you can add + or -
something
... that's a reasonable place to go
... does this spec have a beginning and end
... KML has that, is that a wrapper.
Matt: looking at XML schema spec
... they have lower level primitive
... no recurrence
Thomas: suggestion would be that if year is not included it repeats
annually
... what about something that repeats weekly? where do you draw the
line
Alex: Other people who have sat around tables, have addressed
frequency.
<danbri> matt, could you do a quick followup to my sysreq mail
saying "agreed - with staff contact hat on" or similar? in case it
bounces due to need for o
fficialrequestness
Thomas: what do you mean the time span to mean in terms of
repetition
... we are illeminating the possibility of any recurrence?
Alex: no, I don't have a problem with idea of recurrence, but we
don't need a time stamp
Thomas: do not specify a year or a day.
Alex: but I don't know it includes something like Friday
Ronald if you goes to GDAY. It is a Gregorian day that recurs
Dan: really wished that we have the use cases
... the use cases is approach that if a user wants
... can we get 5 POI in english
<matt> scribe: matt
danbri: Let's get some use cases
Thomas: 1. A hot dog stand that is occasionally there, but also has
open/closed hours.
danbri: What else might you want to know? Health inspections?
Kosher?
ahill: Yes, sure, let's throw it into our examples.
Thomas: 2. A historical church that used to exist and is now
destroyed.
ahill: 3. A congregation that was at a church for a period of time.
The physical building may have it's own POI, but the type of church
might only be there for a period of time.
danbri: Maybe people are exploring their roots.
cperey: Maybe a timestamp around when a member of the congregation
can be trusted or not.
Thomas: This might be linked data from the POI to the person, rather
than inline.
ahill: Agree on that.
... Is a person a POI? It's really hard for me to make a good
argument that people are not points of interest.
Ronald: If that cup of coffee is a POI and I'm not, I'll be
offended!
[[general agreement]]
cperey: The congregant, the congregation and the space in which they
all may be are all distinct.
ahill: In the last f2f the major concern about these things were
that if we do this we'll have to describes everything and anything.
martinL: 4. Football stadium that is open on Mondays and sometimes
Wednesdays.
Thomas: I think at some level of complexity it becomes a manual
process.
<danbri> for recurring events, see
[88]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICalendar#Events_.28VEVENT.29
[88] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICalendar#Events_.28VEVENT.29
martinL: I wouldn't say we want to get too complex, but we then need
to have multiple time elements.
Ronald: If we can multiple POI times then we're there.
cperey: What about a church that adds wings?
Thomas: I'd argue that's a different POI.
martinL: I think it should be one of the examples, you might have
one POI with a time slider.
ahill: If I am driving down the street, I see the church, not the
sub POIs, the altar, toilet, etc. I'm interested in the church, now
and I'm sliding through time and these things become obvious and
apparent.
<danbri> ronald, re calendar/rdf stuff also
[89]http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfcal/
[89] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfcal/
<danbri> ...and microformat markup for events
[90]http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming
[90] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming
Thomas: The specs for times seem pretty good.
ahill: We don't have the spec for it yet from us.
Ronald: If we're talking about existence then a single time span is
sufficient. The other use cases where it's opening hours and things
that change, then that's different.
cperey: Should it be in the spec?
ahill: In practical use for these things a time span is something
you can include then if you don't include it it's right now and
permanent.
... If you have one time span, then you could imagine that being a
situation where you could see two of them.
... If two time spans get delivered with a POI, there's just two
time spans, what would it break? There's not a parent/child
relationship.
Thomas: So you'd treat them as an or relationship?
ahill: Talk of "will that hot dog stand be there?" is really about
future things and not real time.
Thomas: Do we have a proposed format?
ahill: I think we can look at what's here and figure it out.
cperey: And then apply it to the use cases.
ahill: We're going to have a POI time, we've got a fundamental unit
of time. It doesn't describe a duration.
... I think it just says a duration of two hours, rather than a
start/end time.
... I think if the spec we looked at had a begin/end time then KML
would have used it.
<danbri> re times, for content
[91]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_periods
[92]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_by_period
[91] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_periods
[92] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_by_period
[[caldav seems to have a time-range defined]]
cperey: We had a discussion about location changing over time. We
talked about having locations good for specific durations.
... The side of the bus is only valid while it's moving through this
geo location.
martinL: That would be a property animation?
Thomas: We talked about having an ad appear at this location.
-> [93]http://www.w3schools.com/Schema/schema_dtypes_date.asp W3C
Schools (no relation) sample elements for a date range.
[93] http://www.w3schools.com/Schema/schema_dtypes_date.asp
<JonathanJ> 1. present condition (periodical) 2. historical
condition (duration), 3. acting condition (irregularity)
Ronald: I remember this discussion and don't remember the outcome.
Do we store the entire history, or not?
ahill: I think we can say we don't store the history in the POI.
... KML breaks some of these apart too. Not necessarily embedded.
Thomas: Merely having a date span then you have the possibility of
history through multiple POIs. Assign them to different dates with
same location.
ahill: You can use a POI to do that, or not. Or you could have
metadata to do it in one POI. You don't have to use it either way.
Thomas: Then you have to be very precise in the metadata itself. It
becomes not metadata but data.
... The metadata should be describing the content, not the content.
<danbri> [94]http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/ "The
distinction between "data" and "metadata" is not an absolute one; it
is a distinction created primarily by a particular application, and
many times the same resource will be interpreted in both ways
simultaneously."
[94] http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/
Thomas: A building that has different shapes at different dates and
times.
ahill: This strikes me as different representations.
Thomas: Not really.
<danbri>
[95]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)
[95] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)
<danbri> :)
ahill: The London Bridge is now in Arizona.
... If I remodel my house, it's still my house. Some people are not
going to like the idea that it's a different POI.
... If POIs have URIs, then people are going to want to have a
stable URI to describe the building.
... Your proposed solution does not solve everything.
Thomas: Yours would have multiple time stamps that seems more
complex than new POIs.
matt: I think there are use cases for both. If you want a historical
slider, you include multiple time stamps, and if you want a
canonical representation of the house now, then you don't put in
multiple timestamps.
ahill: Thomas you're also assuming that the model has to be tied to
the POI. There could be a separation, could be from a different
database, different metadata.
Thomas: They'd be different POIs then.
ahill: I think this is semantics.
danbri: What are we talking about?
ahill: There are two constituencies, one that wants historical and
one that wants permanence.
Thomas: If you don't want the history then you could have it be on
POI, but if you want history then you want multiple POIs.
<danbri> matt, good question
ahill: There was some convention for mutation of points.
martinL: Essentially we're talking about the visualization changes
over time.
... We have the data and the visualizations are different.
Thomas: No. I see this as the same as CSS and HTML. DIfferent things
sent to different clients based on specs or whatever criteria.
... If you've got data associated with it, that too is a piece of
data.
... My instinct is different POIs with different time spans.
ahill: The spec will let both work.
Thomas: Then you have to be prepared to spec out multiple timespans.
Is that ok?
ahill: Yes.
Ronald: Didn't we agree that the history is outside of the spec?
ahill: Yes, but we're using different history means here.
matt: We've been talking about these primitives as a building block
that can be used in different ways.
ahill: So we've been saying that the POI might have a time and the
location may have a time.
... It's a bit of a can of worms.
-> [96]http://www.galdosinc.com/archives/151 GML begin/end
[96] http://www.galdosinc.com/archives/151
<ahill>
[97]http://xml.fmi.fi/namespace/meteorology/conceptual-model/meteoro
logical-objects/2009/04/28/docindex225.html
[97] http://xml.fmi.fi/namespace/meteorology/conceptual-model/meteorological-objects/2009/04/28/docindex225.html
ahill: If in the end we get something that's very close to GML, I
think that's OK.
... This could be very similar to what we did with KHARML and KML.
We had things we needed to add.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The world is complicated.
<JonathanJ> +1
+1
<danbri> oh, [98]http://danbri.org/words/2005/07/26/110 'Profiling
GML for RSS/Atom, RDF and Web developers' finally relevant ;)
[98] http://danbri.org/words/2005/07/26/110
->
[99]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_Markup_Language#Subset_to
ol GML subset tools
[99] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_Markup_Language#Subset_tool
<scribe> scribe: Ronald
<danbri> discussing [100]http://danbri.org/words/2005/07/26/110 ...
GML subset tool
[100] http://danbri.org/words/2005/07/26/110
ahill: we need to move on, but we also need to capture our
discussion
... are the notes ok, or do we need to write the document
martin: we might be able to make focus groups to write it out
matt: we might not have to do it today, but I like the fact of
teaming up people
martin: I volunteer for the timespan
thomas: I can help
<matt> ACTION: martinL to work on time spans with Thomas [recorded
in [101]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - martinL
<matt> ACTION: martin to work on time spans with Thomas [recorded in
[102]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Work on time spans with Thomas [on
Martin Lechner - due 2011-04-06].
ahill: I remember that someone said openstreetmap has a time
definition as well
jacques: for opening hours for shopping centers, not XML, but in
text
... it is very easy and compact
luca: we should prepare some use case to define the timestamp to
check whether each language is good or not
... for example, for movie show times, we need to decide what is in
scope or out of scope
ahill: talking to dan and we were looking into creating some
examples in mercurial
<matt> ACTION: Alex to place some examples in mercurial [recorded in
[103]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Place some examples in mercurial [on
Alex Hill - due 2011-04-06].
luca: my question was because the discussion was very wide regarding
the POI we can describe, but we should start with something easy to
get started
... and maybe in the second draft add other use cases
<danbri> we have to start simple for starters, maybe with a bias
towards re-using nearby related specs (like icalendar)
luca: this can be applied to any primitive. Just to move forward and
make decisions
matt: thinking of creating an issue for time and spans
<matt> [104]POI tracker
[104] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/
ronald: but are all the primitives issues?
matt: yes, we should be closing them one by one
<Luca> icalendar
<matt> [105]some notes on time primitive
[105] http://ietherpad.com/YoHNECkECB
matt: where do we want to gather requirements for the time
primitive?
<danbri> (re terminology: icalendar is the ietf data format spec;
caldev is a web-dav based protocol for managing a calendar, ... and
'ical' used to be a nickname for it, until Apple named their
icalendar-compatible app 'ical' too)
<JonathanJ> icalendar spec - [106]http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545
[106] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545
thomas: we also need to pick a name for the field. 'time' or
'timerange'
ahill: if anyone else already has a spec for time, what do we do
with it. Reuse it directly, or renaming things and embed it in our
spec?
thomas: we can include it. I don't think it is copyrighted
ahill: but things are namespaces. Are we ok to combining different
kinds of namespaces?
<matt> trackbot, close action-3232
<trackbot> Sorry... closing ACTION-3232 failed, please let sysreq
know about it
<matt> trackbot, close action-32
<trackbot> ACTION-32 Invite Henning after Matt has put ID
requirements in the wiki closed
bertine: we need to be careful there is not any slight difference in
meaning
thomas: we should not make something different, just to make
something different
ahill: GML, KML refer to ISO for timestamps, but it is a more
fundamental concept
... in KML, there is a time primitive, which is an abstract class of
which timestamp and timespan extend
thomas: does their timespan combine two time primitives?
ahill: in their context not really
martin: what would be the desired outcome of a focus group
matt: for editorial stuff, I am going to be a gatekeeper
... we will propose text on the mailing list, and I will put it in
the wiki
... please include the text ISSUE-7 in the subject or body of the
message for tracking
martin: ISSUE-7 or ACTION-43
matt: there are multiple actions to an issue, so discussion on the
issue without closing an action
thomas: are we ready to move to the next item
alex: let's talk about categories
<matt> [107]Category Primitive
[107] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#categorization_primitive
Core Drafting: Category Primitive
christine: we talked about categories before, and the general
thinking was
cperey: IETF and ? have done a lot of work on documenting not just
places of interest
... they have their own structure for categories
... governments and international bodies have their own category
systems, hierarchical systems, beautiful systems
<ahill> [108]http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/charter/
[108] http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/charter/
cperey: it is unlikely that we as an organization pick one system
... we are insufficient domain experts
... there are experts out there, but not at our table. Henning has
not replied and does not seem interested
thomas: is category going to be a required field
ahill: no
... it is not required, but in most cases it is valueable
<matt> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Category primitive is NOT required
ahill: I can imagine a character string "category", but it is not
going to solve the problem. For example we might need to support
multiple categories
... we might need to make our own category, and people can choose to
ignore
cperey: but it is better to reuse existing category systems
thomas: it could just be a link
cperey: exactly
thomas: a POI needs to be able to have multiple categories and these
categories should be URIs
<matt> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Category primitive is NOT required.
Category can be identified by a URI. POIs can have more than one
category.
cperey: if we just specify it this way, we don't need to invite an
expert to come talk to us... it is an implementation detail
ahill: at some stage we need to work out the meaning
<matt> [109]Good Relations categories
[109] http://www.heppnetz.de/ontologies/goodrelations/v1.html#category
thomas: there are also simple formatting issues, e.g. comma
seperated list or multiple entries
ahill: how about an action item of finding an example of a system
using different category systems
<danbri> [110]http://stores.bestbuy.com/153/
[110] http://stores.bestbuy.com/153/
thomas: we should just focus on allowing linking, and not go into
the meaning. that is up to the systems
<danbri> hot dog stand:
[111]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_stand
[111] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_stand
matt: can you walk me through the bestbuy example
<matt> [[<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
"[112]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd"><html
xmlns="[113]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
[112] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd
[113] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
danbri: it is a particular store, if you view source and search for
"property="
<matt> xmlns:rdfs="[114]http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#"
[114] http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema
<matt> xmlns:dc="[115]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
[115] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
<matt> xmlns:xsd="[116]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#"
[116] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
<matt> xmlns:foaf="[117]http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/"
[117] http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/
<matt> xmlns:gr="[118]http://purl.org/goodrelations/v1#"
[118] http://purl.org/goodrelations/v1
<matt> xmlns:geo="[119]http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#"
[119] http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos
<matt> xmlns:v="[120]http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns#"
[120] http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns
danbri: you find lat lon, twitter account
<matt> xmlns:r="[121]http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#"><head
profile="[122]http://gmpg.org/xfn/11"><meta
http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /]]
[121] http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/
[122] http://gmpg.org/xfn/11
danbri: they also have it on products they sell
ahill: should we go to a product page
danbri: would not bother now, but we can expect that data to be on
the web and there should be links from the POI information
<matt> [[<div class="column right"><div class="hours"
rel="gr:hasOpeningHoursSpecification"><h3>Store Hours</h3><ul><li
class="day0" typeof="gr:OpeningHoursSpecification"
about="#storehours_sun"> <span rel="gr:hasOpeningHoursDayOfWeek"
resource="[123]http://purl.org/goodrelations/v1#Sunday"
class="day">Sun</span>]]
[123] http://purl.org/goodrelations/v1#Sunday
ahill: I want to look at an implementation that uses categories
matt: I see they are using opening hours from the good relations
thomas: but we are not looking at opening hours yet from the time
primitive
<ahill>
[124]http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Casio+-+Green+Slim+XGA+DLP+Projecto
r+-+White/9820826.p?skuId=9820826&id=1218178258786
[124] http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Casio+-+Green+Slim+XGA+DLP+Projector+-+White/9820826.p?skuId=9820826&id=1218178258786
ahill: when I went here, the website shows a category, but in the
source I can't see any link to categories
... I need an example. I have the feeling we need a dictionary or a
schema to define what the category is and where it is in the
category hierarchy
<matt> [[I suggest we install the RDFa bookmarklet and use that
instead of view source:
[125]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/ ]]
[125] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/
danbri: library classification schemes don't work that well as
category scheme
... it is not really a thing in a category. it is a bit fuzzy
... it is thesaurus type stuff
... scos
<danbri> [126]http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-ucr/
[126] http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-ucr/
<matt> [127]Best Buy example
[127] http://stores.bestbuy.com/153/
danbri: if the POI is art related, the category will be using skos
<JonathanJ> +1
<danbri> [128]http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/intro
[128] http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/intro
danbri: if it is representing things, rdf uses different mechanics
<danbri> [129]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_stand
[129] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_stand
<danbri> [130]http://dbpedia.org/page/Hot_dog_stand
[130] http://dbpedia.org/page/Hot_dog_stand
<bertine> [131]http://www.geonames.org/ontology/documentation.html
[131] http://www.geonames.org/ontology/documentation.html
<matt> scribe: matt
danbri: The resource itself is:
[132]http://dbpedia.org/resource/Hot_dog_stand
... But the page is [133]http://dbpedia.org/page/Hot_dog_stand
[132] http://dbpedia.org/resource/Hot_dog_stand
[133] http://dbpedia.org/page/Hot_dog_stand
<scribe> scribe: Ronald
danbri: yaga is a organization on top of wikipedia
... is explaining dbpedia
thomas: is a broader term a parent type?
danbri: it is not really hierarchical
cperey: librarians have their own standardisation systems
<danbri>
[134]http://www.lexvo.org/page/wordnet/30/noun/frank_1_13_00http://w
ww.lexvo.org/page/wordnet/30/noun/frank_1_13_00
[134] http://www.lexvo.org/page/wordnet/30/noun/frank_1_13_00http://www.lexvo.org/page/wordnet/30/noun/frank_1_13_00
<danbri>
[135]http://www.lexvo.org/page/wordnet/30/noun/frank_1_13_00
[135] http://www.lexvo.org/page/wordnet/30/noun/frank_1_13_00
<danbri> a smooth-textured sausage of minced beef or pork usually
smoked; often served on a bread roll ('en' language string)
<matt> [136]Linked Data Cloud diagram
[136] http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/
<danbri> [137]http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/
[137] http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/
danbri: most of the data sets are sturctured similarly
<danbri> [138]http://dbpedia.org/page/Hot_dog_stand
[138] http://dbpedia.org/page/Hot_dog_stand
danbri: we don't need to choose
<danbri> try sindice.com
<danbri> [139]http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/
[139] http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/
<cperey> NFAIS Standards
<cperey>
[140]http://www.accessinn.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?cc=1&URL=http:%2F%2
Fwww.accessinn.com%2Flibrary%2FStandards%2FNFAIS%2520StandardsCommit
tee09report.htm&q=htm&wm=wrd
[140] http://www.accessinn.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?cc=1&URL=http:%2F%2Fwww.accessinn.com%2Flibrary%2FStandards%2FNFAIS%2520StandardsCommittee09report.htm&q=htm&wm=wrd
thomas: can I ask yahoo for green fruit. the linked data is not
really used fully yet
<danbri>
[141]http://blog.freebase.com/2010/11/10/google-refine-previously-fr
eebase-gridworks-2-0-announced/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=fee
d&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FreebaseBlog+%28FreebaseBlog%29
[141] http://blog.freebase.com/2010/11/10/google-refine-previously-freebase-gridworks-2-0-announced/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FreebaseBlog+%28FreebaseBlog%29
ahill: until I feel that google is doing something other than
proprietary mapping, I did not think the web is linked
matt: we are talking about categorization, right?
<matt> [142]categorization primitive
[142] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#categorization_primitive
thomas: there is potentially infinite categories, so using URIs
seems a reasonable solution
<matt> [143]Thread on cat primitive
[143] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2011Mar/0013.html
<danbri> (you can probly use [144]http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/MQL
to define a query for green fruit)
[144] http://wiki.freebase.com/wiki/MQL
thomas: do we need to create an action point to decide what form to
use.
ahill: if someone else has figured out time, and someone else
categories... do we add a wrapper around it or recommend to use
these specs
... do we need a wrapper that says this is a POI
<matt> [145]Karl's document on categories
[145] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/images/4/4e/Category_Primative_POIWG.pdf
ahill: is it some sort of key-value pair?
thomas: there needs to be an identifying string saying this is a POI
... it may be the nature of the transmission that assumes it is a
POI, but it depends on how it is used
... if an AR browser gets information from a server, it can assume
it is a POI, but if it is on the web, we need to know it is a POI
<matt> [[This category description does not replace existing
industry classification models, rather it enables reference to such
standards and local domain derivations from such standards as:...]]
-- Karl's document
<danbri> proposal: "The WG agrees that POI descriptions will be more
useful when they include categorisation information. This could
include classes of entity (eg. products, brands), as well as broader
topics (eg. Medieval). Defining particular schemas in detail is
beyond the range of the group, but we anticipate that URIs will be
used to identify these classes and/or categories. There may be scope
for publishing a small high-level taxonomy that integra
<danbri> tes existing deployed practice, as well as describing how
to use Linked Data (skos, dbpedia etc.) for such tasks.
ahill: if all we end up with is a bunch of existing standards, do we
need to invent something around it
thomas: do we need a version of it, or is it implicit?
<JonathanJ> +1
thomas: do we include the fact that a POI can have more than one
category?
danbri: I see that as something implicit
cperey: does this mean that we do not need a core primitive?
<matt> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: POI descriptions will be more useful
when they include categorisation information. This could include
classes of entity (eg. products, brands), as well as broader topics
(eg. Medieval). Defining particular schemas in detail is beyond the
range of the group, but we anticipate that URIs will be used to
identify these classes and/or categories. There may be scope for
publishing a small high-level taxonomy that integrates existing
deployed practic
<matt> well as describing how to use Linked Data (skos, dbpedia
etc.) for such tasks.
ahill: we may not need to have a structure
cperey: how do we decide it is expressed like that?
ahill: by convention
cperey: is there an action to decide what the convention is?
<danbri> I could write <dbpedia:HotDogStand name="Dan's Eateria"
lat="123" long="456"/> ...
<matt> RESOLUTION: POI descriptions will be more useful when they
include categorisation information. This could include classes of
entity (eg. products, brands), as well as broader topics (eg.
Medieval). Defining particular schemas in detail is beyond the range
of the group, but we anticipate that URIs will be used to identify
these classes and/or categories. There may be scope for publishing a
small high-level taxonomy that integrates existing deployed
practice, as wel
<matt> describing how to use Linked Data (skos, dbpedia etc.) for
such tasks.
matt: let's go back to an earlier resolution that I wrote a while
ago
<matt> RESOLUTION: Category primitive is not required.
danbri: if a POI is a category, it is a boring category. so category
is optional
<jacques> amenitie=stand cuisine=hotdog in OSM
<matt> [146]Karl's doc
[146] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/images/4/4e/Category_Primative_POIWG.pdf
matt: let's look at the examples
... using URIs makes it easy to refer to categories from dbpedia
cperey: the proposal says one or more, but we just backed of and
said none required
... we could have one... a useless one
danbri: that would be just "POI"
cperey: not sure what is the right way of treating it
martin: if you don't want to specify, you should be able to leave i
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to place some examples in mercurial [recorded in
[147]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: danbri identify relevant specs for
rotation/orientation included at point of photo/video creation -
what is current practice? [recorded in
[148]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: danbri to summarize URIs in QR codes to POIWG group
[recorded in
[149]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to add Nokia Point and Find:
[150]http://pointandfind.nokia.com/main_publisher recorded in
[151]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to fix link for Wikitude [recorded in
[152]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: martin to work on time spans with Thomas [recorded in
[153]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: martinL to work on time spans with Thomas [recorded in
[154]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: matt to add links to existing standards
[155]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_a
nd_Device_Capabilities [recorded in
[156]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#action03]
[150] http://pointandfind.nokia.com/main_publisher
[155] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers#Sensors_and_Device_Capabilities
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [157]scribe.perl version 1.133
([158]CVS log)
$Date: 2011/04/05 18:30:14 $
[157] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[158] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
POIWG 2011 F2F #1, Day 3
31 Mar 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Day_3
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-irc
Attendees
Present
Fons, Ronald, Jonathan, Luca, Jacques, Martin, Alex, Matt,
JonathanJ
Regrets
Andy, Gary, Karl, Raj, Dan, Carsten
Chair
Alex, Matt
Scribe
Ronald, martinL, Luca, Matt
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]AR Vocabulary
2. [6]Comparing formats, OSM, GeoRSS, etc
3. [7]Name Primitive
4. [8]POI Authority, identification and de-duplication
5. [9]More on names/label
6. [10]Recap
7. [11]Next F2F
8. [12]Core Draft: identifying POIs, IDs, URIs, etc
9. [13]Core Draft: Relationships
10. [14]Wrap-up
11. [15]All resolutions
* [16]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 31 March 2011
<ahill> alex here
<matt> [17]Core Draft
[17] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
<danbri> (aside: I started a conversation with Ron Lake, GML
originator yesterday ... he points us to
[18]http://www.galdosinc.com/archives/1192 which offers 'dictionary
model' for understanding GML's role. I almost mentioned same
metaphor yesterday to explain why RDF people avoid SHOULD and MUST
in schema design )
[18] http://www.galdosinc.com/archives/1192
<Ronald> scribe: Ronald
<matt> Scribe: Ronald
AR Vocabulary
matt: we have core draft, ar landscape and ar vocabulary
... it was supposed to cover the gap between the core draft and AR
... I was thinking that while drafting the core, I was imagining
that we would run into styles and other things that we might want to
move into the ar vocabulary
... but we all are focusing on the core
<JonathanJ> W3C's vocabulary examples #1 -
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/ddr-core-vocabulary/
[19] http://www.w3.org/TR/ddr-core-vocabulary/
matt: question is do we continue to ignore them and focus on the
core draft
alex: does the charter say AR landscape, it says AR notes I think
<matt> [20]Charter
[20] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/#deliverables
<JonathanJ> examples #2 - [21]http://dev.w3.org/html5/vocabulary/
[21] http://dev.w3.org/html5/vocabulary/
matt: there is POI recommendation
... AR and web standard is a long name so I renamed it to AR
landscape
... I put some stuff in the text around the deliverables
... I really thought people would say "Here's the core" with a lot
of properties and that we needed a place to put the stuff that we
did not feel should be in the core
alex: there are 2 worlds, the nokia's and navteq's, and the people
who want to use POI in AR
... I think we are trying to architect things to not specifically
make room for 3D models, images, etc
... they would become presentation data that can be attached to the
core POI
matt: via linking, not saying here is our markup language
alex: I agree with that, but we haven't got a full list of what will
be added
matt: maybe we should do more core work before knowing how to
progress on this
alex; why don't we have a look at what pieces should go into this
alex: such as mentioning what kind of things people would add to a
POI for AR. Like sounds, models, html content, interactivity
martin: things like lines, 3D area, connecting geopoints, coloring,
transparency, tons of things
alex: sounds a little like openstreetmap, cartogrophy
... some people would argue whether that is AR
martin: for example if you are on a tower and want districts
colored, that is AR
alex: agree, these features can be added. but what are they called?
... curves, regions
fons: sounds like SVG
alex: in some sense yes, but it may be described a bit different. at
a higher level, that is what people want to do, but how we don't
know yet
... svg could be possible, kml has something as well
... and for sound, there are many different ways of doing that as
well. mono, html5, spatial
... and 3D models
... you are going to want some interactivity with these models
... maybe an extension to javascript like HTML (hover, click) for
easy authoring
... or go deeper with X3D and DOM
jacques: or webgl
alex: many things seem obvious, but I want to get them down on a
list
matt: I just started collecting some use cases from this discussion
<matt>
jacques: you are speaking about content, but what about POI and
linking POI. Do we want to have the notion of groups of POI in our
spec?
luca: also clustering. If there are a lot together, how do we
cluster and explode?
... in our AR application, we saw that if there are many things
close together, you cannot click
<JonathanJ> I suggest we start from what/how POI can interact other
(POI action) -
[22]http://layar.pbworks.com/w/page/30763878/Activity-types-for-POI-
actions
[22] http://layar.pbworks.com/w/page/30763878/Activity-types-for-POI-actions
ronald: this sounds like something for the AR note as it is a
visualisation
luca: don't you think we should have a recommendation in the core
spec
alex: I think it is something that might need to be in the core POI
... for instance in KML you have folders, and some level of detail
control
... they have some visualisation paradigms
... if you have some on top of each other, you see one POI and it
expands if you click on it
... this is very much an information visualisation technique
... not sure if there is anything structurally in the data
controlling that
ronald: that's why I see it as not part of the data model
alex: has something to do with occlusion as well
martin: It is more of a feature than part of the data model
alex: I think it is good to mention it in the AR note now
... ronald: the clustering seems to be an implementation issue that
should use information from categories and relations from the core
POI spec
jacques: what if you want to navigate from one POI to another POI.
You can switch to google maps or openstreetmap
... you must have a two level navigation system
<matt> [23]Google Earth with a cluster of POIs at same point
[23] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/File:POI_Cluster.png
jacques: I try to write a format very close to open streep map and
link from core POI into the navigation level
<matt> [24]Google Earth with a cluster of POIs at the same point,
when clicked upon
[24] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/File:POI_Cluster_explode.png
alex: let's paraphrase. we need a higher level way of linking POI to
POI to POI, and there needs to be a way to link it to a street level
navigation system
... if we use gml kml, it is easier to link to openstreetmap, but if
we write our own core POI it might be more difficult
Comparing formats, OSM, GeoRSS, etc
jacques: we can go with something similar to this, but if we define
a format for developers and nobody is using gml.
... gml is dead in some sense
... it is very difficult to find information in gml
... maybe SG
matt: I got an email from the creator of gml. he envisioned gml as a
schema language for creating other formats
... for example citygml, but also georss
... he was not envisioning gml being used, but let people subset it
jacques: the schema for openstreetmap is 5 lines. that is very
compact
<matt> [25]GeoRSS
[25] http://www.georss.org/Main_Page
alex: please show us some examples. if I google georss, I get a main
page with an example
<matt> [26]primitives in OSM
[26] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_Primitives
<matt> [27]OSM XML Schema
[27] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/XML_Schema
alex: so open street map is made of nodes, point in the world
jacques, we have nodes, ways (bunch of nodes)
jacques: it can have semantic data, links, rfd data
... it is very powerful, nothing is really missing
<matt> [28]OSM Map Features
[28] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features
jacques: it is very compact and simple. that is why it is so
succesful
... if you have a POI format that is close to this, people will more
easily move
<danbri> it should be possible to ground a simple format in GML
ideas, even if the simple format is CSV/JSON
alex: looks like a different approach. bottom up vs top down
... osm looks great. 200.000 developers and succesful
... we don't want to ignore and push away this crowd
... is it possible to come up with something that satisfies this
crowd and everybode else
... and everybody else is everybody in this room
... there are multiple ways of standardising. one of them is not
standardise, and the other is more formal like W3C
jacques: but it is a specified schema that is well defined
matt: we should look at how to look at the "normal" web developer,
not just the big data owners
<danbri> (no jacques in irc?)
jacques: In different AR browsers, there is content from osm. Just
search for mtrip
<jacques> mtrip and "le guide du routard
<danbri> OSM is great, an amazing achievement, but schema-wise it
pushes a lot of modeling into tags
ahill: why can't the POI recommendation be OSM?
... using a schema very similar to OSM
jacques: it would be possible
... but after that you have to define meta data
ahill: so does that mean all POIs would go into the OSM database
jacques: no, it is just user data
<danbri> matt, from the map features page, 'OpenStreetMap does not
have any content restrictions on tags that can be assigned to
OSM-Elements (Nodes , Ways or Relations ). You can use any tags you
like as long as the values are verifiable.'
<danbri> 'However, there is a benefit in agreeing to a recommended
set of features and corresponding tags in order to create, interpret
and display a common basemap. This page contains a core recommended
feature set and corresponding tags.'
<danbri> so it's a kind of wiki approach
<matt> I see now, thanks danbri!
<danbri> if the schema encoded those it would be a bigger schema
<danbri> so comparing complexity by looking at the size of the
schema is only a partial measure
<danbri> otherwise I'll make a <dan:Geo> </dan:Geo> schema with one
element :)
<ahill> reading dandri's comments
<danbri> I'm off to read about [29]http://linkedgeodata.org/
[29] http://linkedgeodata.org/
<danbri> (will let you guys get on)
<matt> [30]Display attributes
[30] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features#Annotation
jacques: schema is small with a lot of semantic data
ahill: but can I get anything out of osm using just the schema?
... judging/evaluating if something is a small schema you need to
look at the semantic data
... what does this mean for us. why can't we use this?
... I am thinking that anything we create can be simple enough and
it can be easily converted to osm
... but the same applies to gml, kml
... but it does not give me any guidance on how to structure our
recommendation
matt: as far as I can tell, all osm is WGS84. so we would need to
add our other location constructs
ahill: are there points that are not absolute
jacques: no, everything is to describe points in the world. we would
need to add it
... but being close to this spec would help
ahill: is gml more verbose, because we are not relying on
convention?
matt: having a namespace will avoid clashes, but still have
convention
ahill: is it possible that with osm are less verbose, but if we add
more things it becomes not clear to read anymore?
jacques: in a tag you can put an uri to an svg file
... your can reference HTML5, or complex graphical systems
matt: how do you do that in practical. is it on a node?
ahill: how do I render it
matt: is it an idea to make an example POI
jacques: I can provide that
ahill: to me, the discussion is that jacques is a C# guy, and I am a
Java guy
... things are expressible in OSM or RDF or XML. This is not the
question
jacques: the question is who will be using it
ahill: that is an important question, but I am unprepared to answer
this question
... I presume that because we are in W3C, we would create a standard
that is W3C like
jacques: open street map likes W3C
ahill: so why did osm not approach W3C
<matt> [31]Danbri's mail about the spec's users
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Mar/0023.html
<ahill> does W3C like osm?
<matt> scribe: martinL
ahill: I have no doubt that we can use ARML or OSM
Ronald: more than the actual data format, it matters more to define
the data model
ahill: We can then map it to a data format
... that's for later to wory about
<matt> [32]Danbri's mail about hte spec's users
[32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Mar/0023.html
<matt> [33]current use cases
[33] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases
ahill: i like to check the usecases dan proposed
... dan has described a very typical case. somebody wants to publish
POI data and looks for guidance (W3C) how to do it and save wasting
his time
... let's look it in light of something like OSM
... any examples of OSM playing with RSS (event scheduling etc.)? or
are they just mapping streets (that's what i suspect)
... does the community use OSM for other tasks? social data? feeds?
news?
jacques: yes - traffic information, other tools, additional layers
can be added to the model
... for example REST API to query POIs
ahill: so people already creating POIs in the community (classes,
add description, the type of information we are talking about)
... tools to create, query APIs exist
... something like SPARQL vs. OSM data?
jacques: use can use SPARQL to query OSM data, but RESTful API is
much simpler
... RESTful interface is faster
<matt> [[LinkedGeoData is an effort to add a spatial dimension to
the Web of Data / Semantic Web. LinkedGeoData uses the information
collected by the OpenStreetMap project and makes it available as an
RDF knowledge base according to the Linked Data principles. It
interlinks this data with other knowledge bases in the Linking Open
[ Data initiative.]] -- [34]http://linkedgeodata.org/About
[34] http://linkedgeodata.org/About
ahill: low-level efficiency issues: questions like "Why do you use
SPARQL with OSM?"
jaques: with GML, it will take a lot of time to define complex
queries
ahill: OSM has simple schema, the query APIs are simple (no
complexity) vs. RESTful APIs on complex structures like GML
jacques: Before XML, there was SGML, but it was not successful -
they wanted to move to something simpler
<Luca_>
[35]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Languag
e
[35] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language
jacques: We should use something simpler
ahill: message received
... we've talked a lot about it. in the end, we're agnostic. we do
not choose OSM over GML or vice versa
... we're not experts in something like timestamps etc.
... Safe to say GML is a toolkit of things?
... how do you turn GML into a language?
<danbri> re query, my take is that we're primarily about data
structures; different folk will query it in different ways /
environments
ahill: just pick parts of it?
... When you look at GeoRSS, there are no new fundamental types,
you'll find GML
matt: We can have our own XML and map to these things
... or JSON
ahill: Answer to OSM question is: "Nothing" - we won't reject it,
but it doesn't provide a way forward to the discussion
Ronald: We should keep OSM in mind to create a mapping to it
ahill: we won't shut out the OSM people
<danbri> aside re SGML, ... the message that announced the Web was
[36]http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/1991/08/art-6484.txt says
'SGML (ugh! but standard) mark-up' :)
[36] http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/1991/08/art-6484.txt
<matt> ACTION: Jonathan to merge landscape draft and browser draft
into one document [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Merge landscape draft and browser
draft into one document [on Jonathan Jeon - due 2011-04-07].
ahill: how does OSM handle altitude?
jacques: they are not using it
ahill: that's a concern. elevation is optional?
jacques: yes
ahill: if i make an OSM-based map, where do you get elevation?
jacques: you don't need elevation in navigation
martinL: in AR, elevation matters
ahill: of course, and you care about buildings
jacques: they are using Collada
Name Primitive
ahill: let's switch gears
... let's work through the existing data format
matt: we've talked about time, categorization and name
ahill: not all problems are solved, but we are further in the
discussion
<Luca> thanks J but it's not true :(
ahill: for the name primitive, we don't need to take care of things
like encoding etc., cause it will come with a specific encoding,
that's metadata
... multiple names for POIs in different languages is
implementation-specific and will be in the matadata
... we need to decide if a simple name is enough
Ronald: last december, i think we came to a same conclusion
sorry for the "typo" :-)
<danbri> re labels, SKOS has some terminology for labelling:
[38]http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seclabel and
[39]http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seclabelsoutsideSKOS ... you
can give labels in various languages, and a 'preferred label'
[38] http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seclabel
[39] http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seclabelsoutsideSKOS
ahill: Preferred Labels is a way of prioritizing labels
... this adds to the discussion. a single name is not enough
... charset is a different topic
<matt> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Character set is an implementation
detail, will likely be handled at the XML processing level
Ronald: that's implementation
<JonathanJ> similar example : skos:prefLabel "ëÂâ¢Ã«Â¬Â¼="@ko;
ahill: name is a textual label for a POI
<matt> RESOLUTION: Character set issues are an implementation detail
that will be handled at the processing level (e.g. by XML processor)
ahill: done
<JonathanJ> we need to consider I18N issues -
[40]http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs
[40] http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs
ahill: in XML, there is no ordering, we need to define default
labels
JonathanJ: we need to find best practices, not read the entire
document
Ronald: reading through the best practices, maybe the Resolution
should not be 5-4-3-2-1-done ...
matt: created a placeholder for internationalization issues
<danbri> (the spec(s) will also need review from the Accessibility
community)
ahill: suming up: we need labels, but do we want a preferred label
vs. alt label
Ronald: did we make a conclusion that label is better than name?
... i like label better, but personal preference
Luca: What is the difference?
<JonathanJ> right danbri. Normally, W3C specs need review from
horizontal WGs - I18n, Accessibility community
Ronald: name has more meaning
... i can imagine a lot of POIs where name does not make sense, but
label does
Luca: i'm in favor of the labels
ahill: we want to change name to label
Luca: ... we could have both
Ronald: that creates confusion
Luca: When using forsquare, there are tons of names that are
different, cause everyone wants to create his own place.
... something that is more concrete, that connects the labels to the
official name
ahill: that raises the question of authority
... question: should the data format propose to solve that?
... a boolean saying "This is the important one"?
... I would say no
... "e.g., Who owns the White House?
... there's nothing in HTTP or HTML or so that handles that question
Ronald: agree
ahill: so we use label. what about language?
... should metadata describe different labels for different
languages?
<ahill> matt is typing
<matt> <poi xml:lang="en-US"><label>in en-us</><label
xml:lang="es">en espagnol</></>
martinL: I like that
<matt> Ronald: Matt doesn't know Spanish.
ahill: do we wanna capture this in a document, and then move on
<JonathanJ> we might be to need like as ICANN for POI ownership
<danbri> "When using forsquare, there are tons of names that are
different, cause everyone wants to create his own place." => this
suggests we should capture a de-duplication use case: mechanisms to
tell when two POI descriptions are about the same real-world entity
(eg. via restaurant's phone number or url)
<Luca> <label xml:lang="it">In Italiano</label>
ahill: considering the two things coming into the IRC
... we don't want to consider ownership
matt: i think we don't want to cover registration
POI Authority, identification and de-duplication
<matt> matt: We should facilitate being decentralized as much as
possible. Using URIs to accomplish this is the Web accepted way
(setting aside the centralization that occurs due to ICANN, etc).
Luca: For referencing the same name, we could probably use the
location
martinL: That's tricky
Luca: Right, it could reference the big building, or outtakes from
the building
ahill: We do need ways that two things refer to the same place
... do I want to refer from my POI to another POI ("that's the
official building")?
fons: Consider databases where you have lots of addresses - we need
a way to resolve duplicates
<matt> Scribe: Luca
matt: if your are going in a place and you create a POI: how do you
avoid duplicate
?
<JonathanJ> there is two types of approach : supervised (Wikipedia
style), unsupervised (foursquare style)
alex: there is 2 worlds: Information and something phisical
... GUID for the physical world?
RONALD: in reality we expect to have a multiple information that
reflect the same element (POI)
<matt> matt: I think all we can do is pop up a layer, and assuming
there is a URI for a POI, and we are in a well designed Web
environment, that if two POI's URIs resolve to the same URI, that
they are the same POI. I think that's the only claim we can make.
Alex: is it possible that we get down to specifying a location we
can refer to identity (?????) a building?
... concern: there can be multiple db that have data, and there
would be inconsistency. How can we resolve it?
<JonathanJ> How Facebook Can Solve The Duplicate Venue Problem -
[41]http://ericleist.com/2010/08/18/how-facebook-can-sole-the-duplic
ate-venue-problem/
[41] http://ericleist.com/2010/08/18/how-facebook-can-sole-the-duplicate-venue-problem/
sorry i miss Martin and Ronald talk about the authority
:/(
<matt> Alex: We can provide guidance on this. There will be
authorities such as Ordnance Survey.
<martinL> i was saying the same problem we were talking about is
approached through semantic concepts and the Linked Data Cloud
thank!
Alex: if 2 people drop 2 pois, similar, close, how our data format
is going to solve the resolution on the duplication?
<danbri> the principle of having a location be able to 'claim
itself' is pretty cool, and goes beyond Facebook. You could have the
org's homepage declare an OpenID, and then if someone logs into your
site (eg. Layar developer site) using that OpenID, you know it's the
person controlling the org's site.
ronald: we need to address this problem (duplication) when we will
looking at the relationship
<matt> matt: I think we help ease some of these issues by specifying
a lot of 0 or more properties, e.g. labels: we can have the
"California Pizza Kitchen" AND the "CPK" in one POI. We can have
more than one location, it could be a point, or a model, or both.
Without this ability to have multiples we will certainly cause lots
and lots of duplication.
<danbri> related and somehow harder, is when two POI descriptions
are at slightly different levels of abstraction; Tushinski as
historical building vs Tushinski as film venue. Not clear whether to
merge or not. The WG's approach to categories has some impact there.
<JonathanJ> +1, danbri
<inserted> Topics: More on names/label
Martin: I don't think metadata should be internationalize
... like the Label that should be use for visualization
Ronald: all of these premitive are data
... we should try to keep these things separated: Label - metadata
Martin: What would be the UC for label?
... What's the use case to use label in different Languages?
... when developers will use Label primitives?
Alex: new issue: people want to search for certain things
... and somehow Label are used for that
Ronald: Is XML:lang is enough to address internationalization (for
label) ?
<JonathanJ> W3C I18N Techniques: Authoring XML -
[42]http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/authoring-xml
[42] http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/authoring-xml
<matt> jacques: In OSM they use: <tag k="name:en-US" v="...">
<JonathanJ> W3C I18N Techniques: Developing schemas -
[43]http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-schemas
[43] http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-schemas
More on names/label
<danbri> matt it's very likely a Ralph Swick-ism, from the '97 RDF
spec: [44]http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/#intro
"The distinction between "data" and "metadata" is not an absolute
one; it is a distinction created primarily by a particular
application, and many times the same resource will be interpreted in
both ways simultaneously."
[44] http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-rdf-syntax-19990222/#intro
<matt> RESOLUTION: We will use label instead of name.
<danbri> +1
<JonathanJ> +1
Ronald: we should add into the spec something that would help in
adding the internationalization
+1
<danbri> for i18n
[45]http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ is a
good read
[45] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/
alex: do we want to distinguish from primary label to the other (in
case of multiple labels)
<JonathanJ> <preferredlablel xml:lang="ko">ìºË리Ã-
‘â¹Ëìâ¢â Ãâ¼ìž Ãâ¤ì¹Å</>
<JonathanJ> <preferredlablel
xml:lang="jp">ãâ«ãƪãÆâ¢Ã£â©ãÆ«ãÆâ¹Ã£â¢ãÆâãâ¶ãÆ‹âÂ
¹Ã£ÆËãÆ©ãƳ</>
Recap before lunch
Alex: long discussion on OSM
... we looked at that - very simple -
<matt> [[Discussion resulting in the XML examples here:
[46]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Core/Draft&oldid
=404#label_primitive or latest here:
[47]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#label_primitive ]]
[46] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Core/Draft&oldid=404#label_primitive
[47] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#label_primitive
Recap
<matt> scribe: Matt
<Luca> Alex: Jack ask was : why don't we use OSM looking a the
extreme success in the developer communinty?
Alex: We spent some time looking at various formats, OSM, RFD, etc.
In the end we're going to be language neutral.
<Luca> Alex: and the groups said or thought: why not
<Luca> thanks matt
<Luca> and sorry for the readers
<Luca> :)
<Luca> about my minutes
Alex: For instance, we looked at LinkedGeoData.org, which takes OSM
data, converts it to RDF and then allows SPARQL queries over it. It
confirmed that people can make POIs in various ways, but didn't
resolve the problem.
jacques: OSM is very easy for Web developers to use. Researchers can
move to RDF format.
... We've moved back to OSM format as it's very efficient.
... A format similar to OSM same schema perhaps would be nice, and
you can build applications with navigation and with POIs that are
close to navigation systems.
... I think it would be easy to do this in something close to OSM
format.
... It's very easy to use and very usable by Web developers.
Alex: He doesn't want the POI spec to be so different that it can't
be linked to OSM data.
... How do you feel today vs how you felt in Seoul?
... We also talked about not wanting to inline things like HTML
necessarily.
jacques: If we had something like KML for presentation above OSM for
location data, that would be ideal.
<JonathanJ> [48]http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/POI_from_OSM.pdf
[48] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/POI_from_OSM.pdf
<JonathanJ>
[49]http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Markup_Language_Comparison.pdf
[49] http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Markup_Language_Comparison.pdf
<Luca> OK
->
[50]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Futur
e_Face_to_Face_Meetings F2F options
[50] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Future_Face_to_Face_Meetings
Next F2F
Alex: I cannot go to a June meeting in Taiwan
martinL: I'll be at OGC meeting in Taiwan.
... But I'll go wherever we go.
<JonathanJ> If June meeting is not WG meeting, I cannot go to there
matt: My preference if we were to colocate a meeting with OGC, that
it be one where we have relevance, e.g. the Denver OGC meeting where
the 3DIM people will be meeting.
Alex: If we had the Geolocation WG, the DAP WG, Khronos and us, what
are we going to come away with that? It'd be fun, but what do we get
from them wrt what we're doing?
... I'm not sure if that recipe is really what we need.
... If we met with OSM people (not sure who they are), and Carsen
for CityGML, I think that's something fruitful.
<JonathanJ> one of other option is meeting with OMA mobileAR
[[Looking at OGC agenda]]
Alex: Who is meeting at this meeting?
<JonathanJ> next OMA meeting will held in Budapest, Hungary (June 27
~ June 30)
Alex: We need a way to make the players feel they are represented.
Having members from other orgs be there, is positive.
... I don't have serious expectations that they will come to the
table with lots of content to contribute.
... Let's not let our priorities get effected by things others want
to inject. We can liaise with them.
Luca: We might find overlaps with other specs. OMA doesn't seem to
have a specification themselves, they'll use our stuff to model
their specification.
... I think it's best for us to meet with those who have skills we
don't have right now.
... OGC may have the people we need. We only have three f2f meetings
per year, we have to focus on what is good for us.
... Then there is the issue of them having a full agenda, how can we
meet with the people if they're busy with other things.
matt: I think we should look at skills and things that we are
lacking now, where we can get insight, then maybe figure out
specific people/organizations to work with?
... e.g. geo, I think has a long history, lots of details.
martinL: I think we should be looking for computer vision folks too.
<JonathanJ> WG Meeting in Korea is available whenever we want :)
Ronald: Agreed.
Alex: Having danbri here for example was very valuable as we had
someone speaking with authority on the Web. Having Thomas here was
also good in that he's implementing this stuff.
Ronald: He's one of our personas for our use cases.
<JonathanJ> +1
Alex: I think we need the geo detail people too.
... We need something beyond just the data set folks, offset by
other geo standards folks, e.g. OGC and/or OSM.
<scribe> ACTION: matt to work with OGC on participating in WG
[recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Work with OGC on participating in WG
[on Matt Womer - due 2011-04-07].
Alex: If the people we need are not in Taiwan, we shouldn't cohost
there.
... If there isn't an agenda item for us to meet with them, I don't
want to go. If it's just hallway conversations that's not good.
... I would favor a US meeting in the fall, either OGC or TPAC, or
our own.
Matt: We could also try to work around ISMAR 2011.
-> [52]http://www.ismar11.org/ ISMAR 2011
[52] http://www.ismar11.org/
Matt: I'd rather not attend ISMAR itself, but if it helps, I'd
attend a WG meeting around it.
Alex: I'd say I'm still at "I'd go to something in the US"
Matt: Who will be at TPAC? Layar?
Ronald: Maybe, could be Dirk, or Jens or not at all.
JonathanJ: I'll be there.
Luca: If we meet, I can go. DAP is meeting as well, Marco is going
to that.
Fons: ?? may go??
Matt: I'll be there for my other WGs at the very least.
... TPAC would probably give us more interfacing with the AR folks.
OGC would give us more Geo expertise. We could also invite OGC to
TPAC.
<JonathanJ> I think TPAC meeting must be valuable for us
Alex: OGC meeting seems more valuable to where we are.
matt: TPAC will also let us meet more Web people too, like danbri.
<JonathanJ> ISUVR 2011 - [53]http://www.isuvr.org/
[53] http://www.isuvr.org/
Alex: I'll be on an island south of Korea for ISUVR at beginning of
July.
... Last few days in June or 1 July works for me in Korea
<JonathanJ> If we want it, I can co-host in Jeju, June 28(Tue) ~
June 30 (or June 27(Mon) ~ June 29)
Matt: My guidance would be to have us attend TPAC. It's really very
useful.
... I'll put a poll together for F2F meetings.
Alex: Should we put Taiwan in the poll?
... If right OGC people are there, we can do it.
matt: Could probably get some OGC people at MIT in summer.
<scribe> ACTION: matt to work on poll for future F2F options.
[recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Work on poll for future F2F options.
[on Matt Womer - due 2011-04-07].
RESOLUTION: Group will have the 3rd 2011 meeting at TPAC
<JonathanJ> +1
<Luca_> +1
Alex: Have Taiwan in the poll.
+1
Core Draft: identifying POIs, IDs, URIs, etc
Alex: I declare that I have a POI within Silicon Valley, and sv is
represented by a URI.
martinL: If I want to put a POI in somewhere, I need a reference to
it, it's like a hyperlink.
... So you're saying how can we make your ID for a POI unique in the
world?
... Let's say you create a POI called Silicon Valley, and I want to
create a POI for Palo Alto, should we allow for linkage?
-> [55]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-poiwg-minutes.html URI
discussion
[55] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-poiwg-minutes.html
Alex: If there's a POI that represents Silicon Valley, and there's
some consensus that it's SV someone with some authority is going to
have a URI for it.
martinL: If we do what we're saying, you won't have a URI for a POI.
matt: So, we could be talking about putting the URI on the envelop,
or in the envelop, or combining the URI to fetch it with the
fragment syntax to reference things within the POI.
Alex: Not following the envelope thing.
matt: On the Web, a web page doesn't really know it's URI. That's on
the 'outside' of the envelope, it's how you fetched it via HTTP. And
you can reference and create fragments though, fetch via "#" syntax
and use id= or name= within HTML.
Alex: We've had conversation yesterday about how to fetch just a
particular piece without the whole thing, which is a bit weird, as
the server never sees the # in most cases.
matt: On the visible Web, the way it works is the hash portion of
the URL never gets to the server. Once the whole HTML page comes
back, the client looks for an id/name that matches the hash portion
and jumps there.
jacques: Looking at how it works with OSM...
-> [56]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations OSM Relations
[56] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations
matt: We're really back to the ID discussion.
Alex: We've had discussions about this, experts, etc that said use
URIs.
matt: How does OSM handle mashing up things? Can I make my stuff
reference an OSM data portion, or vice versa?
jacques: When you talk about this, you're not talking about OSM --
OSM is the database. You're talking about an OSM style schema to
describe POI.
... We're speaking of a channel, that has something like OSM data.
Now in that you want to refer to my personal channel, there's
something.
... Linking within a channel is obvious, between channels, I don't
know. If there's a URI for your channel, you could expand the URI,
it should be possible, but you'd have to write it.
matt: channel=layer?
jacques: yes.
cperey: Does this happen in Wikitude?
martinL: We haven't rolled it out yet.
... There's a URI and an ID that references the world and then ??.
You can call it from a web page or whatever.
cperey: So you can call one world from another?
martinL: Yes.
... We do some of this through wikitude based URIs.
Alex: Say someone made a Christmas tree layer. Can I include a
reference to that in my layer?
jacques: With a REST API, it shouldn't be difficult.
Alex: It's one thing to click on a link and get a channel, but
there's another to be able to link to a subset of a channel.
martinL: There's "I am linking to your data set" (e.g. your whole
web page, or a new set of POIs). Then there's linking to a
particular POI.
Alex: If I had made a POI in my world of a Christmas tree and
Jacques wants to include that POI, does he copy that data or link to
it?
martinL: Links to the data set with the fragment pointing to the
particular POI.
Alex: We're saying basically support linked data. Not terribly
complicated.
matt: We say that now...
cperey: Say, I want to put an ornament on that tree, but I don't
have one, but Jacques does.
martinL: It's not all that dissimilar from iframes on the visual
Web.
... Instead of copying, I link through an iframe.
Alex: It's not in the DOM for the hosting page, it's really quite
limited.
martinL: I don't think we should get into the recursion or inclusion
in an AR DOM or anything right now.
Alex: Let's codify this Christmas tree example.
cperey: I think it's much more likely you want it in an urban
planning setting. e.g. a catalog of virtual objects being put on the
walls or something like that.
Alex: Something dangling moving, hanging off of things... that's a
requirement people will want.
matt: I think this is back to the relationships part rather than the
ID part.
RESOLUTION: Core POI must be able to refer to a POI through an HTTP
URI (recommended) or other global identifier outside of the POI
itself.
martinL: We still need to figure out what the POI ID is.
Alex: I think we want to figure this out. People want to refer from
the outside of the POI, e.g. "here's an HTTP URI that points to a
POI". That is different than a bunch of POIs in one place, how do I
refer to just one of them.
... We've said that that fragment part is how we will identify it.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The ID specified within a POI document will be
addressable via the fragment notation in a URI.
matt: Yesterday I said "are there multiple POIs in a POI document?"
and the response was kind of "huh?"
Alex: Today we say "yes", there can be.
cperey: Using the mall example, there could be a single document
with all of the stores within it.
martinL: Right, otherwise you have to start with the whole universe.
cperey: There can also be synonyms and reassignments of the URIs,
etc.
RESOLUTION: The ID specified within a POI document will be
addressable via the fragment notation in a URI.
Alex: It was simple enough when we had a document and a fragment
within it. Now we're talking about documents within documents --
martinL: It's not, it's a document that references other POIs
Alex: If POI A contains POI B, how does that work? How many
different documents do I have?
martinL: Essentially you have a link. "contains" is a link. There's
no nesting.
Alex: Flatly represented.
[[note, this topic change should be moved to where we have the topic
of relationships]]
<scribe> ACTION: cperey to determine which OGC WGs are meeting at
OGC TC in June [recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Determine which OGC WGs are meeting
at OGC TC in June [on Christine Perey - due 2011-04-07].
matt: I was thinking the three options were: TaichungTaiwan, Boston
MA, Boulder CO for the poll.
cperey: Adjust the date to do it by Monday, have it close the next
monday. Talk on TC in between.
Core Draft: Relationships
jacques: A panoramic may have POIs within them, not separate POI
documents.
... Don't want them nested.
Ronald: A POI is always a separate relationship, and not always just
accessible within a POI group.
Fons: There's a difference between having the relationship expressed
in the datastructure itself.
Alex: POIs are POIs, data structures that are grouping them together
are what? POIs?
Ronald: Would this building be a POI, or would it be a group of
company POIs?
Alex: I find it hard to find a situation where something isn't a
POI.
... We think of a POI as something different to a grouping node.
... For the sake of argument if the grouping mechanism wasn't called
a POI that might be more obvious
jacques: I'd prefer to keep a POI close to a point.
Alex: What about a building? It's a volume, not a point.
jacques: It's a building with a POI inside.
Alex: From an OSM point of view, there are points, and a point of
interest is just a point.
... There are other datastructures that group them into shapes
through relations.
... I disagree with that conception of it.
Ronald: I think it would be hard to model the other things we want
to bring via AR. e.g. use cases that aren't only geo.
jacques: If we can stay close to that it would be good, otherwise
there's POI within POI, etc.
matt: Just to be clear, we're not talking about the datastructure
when we say "POI within POI", e.g.: <poi id="a"><poi id="b"><poi
id="c"></poi></poi></poi>" -- we're not saying that.
Ronald: The adjacent to relationship, the routing info. I think
there's debate about the OSM way of routes of points, vs Karl's
statement of it is a relationship between POIs.
Alex: There's another thing that we've discussed, taking it out of
the POI and make another data structure for expressing relations.
jacques: In OSM the relations are recursive too.
... To OSM a point is a point.
... To you a point is more vague.
Ronald: I get the feeling that points at OSM are closer to our
lat/lng primitve.
jacques: I would prefer that the pois be between the relationship.
...
Alex: Declaring that two POIs are the same is a POI?
Ronald: No. There may be a relationship between the old restaurant
and the new at the same location and you might want to capture that
relationship.
cperey: You could do that with temporal information.
jacques: Relations and relationships are different things.
... In Geo they call a grouping of ways/nodes/relations relations.
... While what you're speaking of is a relationship.
Ronald: Some of us are talking about relations on a geo level, and
others are talking about relations between POIs.
... I think the relation primitive of a POI has nothing to do with
the geo relations.
... A POI in it's location primitive has a relation defining the geo
boundaries. e.g. a polygon showing an extensible building. In OSM
you would reuse that relationship from the geo perspective, but they
are two different concepts.
cperey: We also talked about relationships like provenance,
for-sale, etc.
Alex: I am not sure we agreed that that was within scope of our
relation tag vs the metadata.
... KML has atompub bits to it that allow you to ascribe provenance,
and there are other standards in use too.
... In some sense we want to restrict the usage to what really
matters for POI, not to cover all cases.
Ronald: This is also somewhere we meet the semantic web too.
<relation type="[58]http://...." id1="#a" id2="#b"/>
[58] http://.../
Alex: The conversation thus far: rather than having a few types that
we prescribe, we could be flexible. Then we talked about POIs within
POIs. We do want to accommodate the social provenance too. We do
want to capture some relations like "California is contained within
the US".
martinL: A city tour may contain POIs for it, but is the tour itself
a POI?
Alex: I would say the tour itself is also a POI.
cperey: But you could also call that a way or a route.
jacques: I'd prefer that.
Alex: Do you want to restrict what we can attach to it?
Ronald: If this tour is a POI in our definition, then the POI will
have a location primitive. If it can contain an osm way, we can do
that, or have relationships to the individual points on the tour.
... I really see OSM as a way to represent the location primitive.
jacques: No, semantic data is attached to it.
... If you have a recursive definition of a POI it is much more
difficult.
Ronald: Is the POI the leading factor or the location.
matt: I say it is the POI -- we can have POIs whose location is not
geo based.
Ronald: That is the key difficulty.
... If everything is geo the OSM approach is fine. Is there a way to
extend the OSM to other location primitives that we want to support?
Alex: Some of the examples we had at the last f2f-- it is weird that
everything I am saying is being typed -- ha-- oo- a--
... At the last f2f we had some examples of a number of states or a
bunch of businesses and there was a desire to have another grouping
element -- a POI whose extent is implied by them.
... We could have a city which is prescribed by the things within
it.
jacques: We would have to have a complex definition of a location.
Alex: We acknowledge that. We may use something like OSM to describe
them, or something like GML for complex regions/paths/etc.
... Ronald is saying that those are the extents, the volume, the
structure of POis -- but those are a conceptual term. The POI are
the semantic data being added to points of space, and you may even
group a number of POIs and say "this is a POI".
... I think your concern is that you grouped not POIs, but geometric
objects and that those are a POI.
... I think what Jacques wants us to do is establish relationships
between extents from a POI, not a POI to a POI.
... We're not working on a just geometric level.
[[Alex draws on board]]
[59]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Multipolygon
[59] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Multipolygon
[60]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary
[60] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary
Alex: These all look like very geo oriented relationships.
Ronald: It's not metadata about it, just what it is.
Alex: an administrative boundary is as close as we've gotten to the
semantics. It's just geographical.
... OSM seems to be geometry on a sphere. It doesn't have altitude
even.
... We see that but want to do something more powerful moving
towards, well, not exactly concepts, but things that may defy those
boundaries of lines on a sphere.
Ronald: We also have a use case of a dynamic POI, a GPS on a bus for
instance.
Alex: Bus going down the road has three labels on it "John" "Sally"
and "Someone else" -- they're creating a POI, some call it an
annotation, some call it a thought bubble, but they are all taking
advantage of the fact that there is a location of "the bus".
... So there is another one of "the bus" itself. Maybe another pops
up of "BGTV 26", which is in the bus, manufactured by Mitsibushi,
etc. They're a single point.
jacques: I'm going bottom up, you're going top down.
Ronald: Can one integrate within the other?
jacques: It's a very ambitious format. I think you will run into
trouble at some point.
Alex: Aren't these just triples? a verb b
Ronald: We may introduce this POI concept, besides the point and the
way concepts and have links made via linked data.
Alex: We have an issue here. Brainstorming:
... This group has been operating for some time with the model on
the board -- POIs can have relationships between POIs -- maybe these
relationships are not geometric. The question is what problems does
this cause?
... One issue raised: is there a recursion here? What issues does
that cause?
jacques: Recursion is a real problem here, it could prevent a real
implementation.
Ronald: Isn't this problem true of the semantic web too?
Alex: Yes, inference engines have these problems.
... So we need to resolve if this is going to create a problem for
us. One concrete way to see this is through examples.
... We cannot walk away and meet again without examples, where we've
tried to implement these things. Let's go try it.
... The value of trying is to get more minds to look at this
objectively.
Ronald: danbri started a repository for examples.
Alex: That is where they should go.
... If we send around emails and it's not one click away for people,
then that's a potential problem.
<JonathanJ> [picture from board] - [61]http://instagr.am/p/Cs0Fv/
[61] http://instagr.am/p/Cs0Fv/
Alex: Let's use the wiki for now, then when we're ready for testing,
we can use the repository.
Wrap-up
-> [62]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html#ActionSummary
Action Items day 1
[62] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html#ActionSummary
-> [63]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#ActionSummary
Action Items day 2
[63] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/30-poiwg-minutes.html#ActionSummary
-> [64]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#ActionSummary
Action Items day 3
<scribe> ACTION: matt to clean up f2f minutes [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Clean up f2f minutes [on Matt Womer -
due 2011-04-07].
<inserted> Scribe: matt
RESOLUTION: Group will work in XML, and not do the mappings to other
formats simultaneously, but keep mappings in mind as we go.
... The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI descriptions will be
exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5, JSON formats, often
embedded within some surrounding format or spec.
... The normative mapping included will be XML.
Alex: Action from day 2 on me is now to place examples in the wiki
instead.
<scribe> Scribe: matt
RESOLUTION: Matt to start acting as informal editor. WG will bring
together issues weekly for entering into wiki.
... WG will meet f2f three times per year
... Character set issues are an implementation detail that will be
handled at the processing level (e.g. by XML processor)
<scribe> Scribe: matt
RESOLUTION: We will use label instead of name.
... Character set issues are an implementation detail that will be
handled at the processing level (e.g. by XML processor)
... WG will meet f2f three times per year
... Matt to start acting as informal editor. WG will bring together
issues weekly for entering into wiki.
matt: rrsagent hates two resolutions in a row. stupid bug.
RESOLUTION: Character set issues are an implementation detail that
will be handled at the processing level (e.g. by XML processor)
matt: blah
<ahill>
[66]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Core/Draft&diff=
380&oldid=379
[66] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Core/Draft&diff=380&oldid=379
RESOLUTION: WG will meet f2f three times per year
matt: blah
RESOLUTION: Time primitive is NOT required
alex: We need to decide if the label primitive is required. Create
an issue.
ISSUE-10?
<trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- Should we require a label for POIs? -- raised
<trackbot> [67]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/10
[67] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/10
ISSUE-09?
<trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- Is an ID required within a POI itself? --
raised
<trackbot> [68]http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/9
[68] http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/9
Alex: Motion to adjourn
<JonathanJ> Thanks for Layar's hosting -
[69]http://instagr.am/p/Cs4ad/
[69] http://instagr.am/p/Cs4ad/
Alex: Thanks to everyone for coming! It is hard work!
matt: Thank you Layar!!
All resolutions
matt: The following is a complete list of resolutions made during
this F2F. The discussion of each one can be found elsewhere in the
minutes.
... Resolution 1:
RESOLUTION: Category primitive is not required.
matt: Resolution 2:
RESOLUTION: Character set issues are an implementation detail that
will be handled at the processing level (e.g. by XML processor)
matt: Resolution 3:
RESOLUTION: Core POI must be able to refer to a POI through an HTTP
URI (recommended) or other global identifier outside of the POI
itself.
matt: Resolution 4:
RESOLUTION: Group will have the 3rd 2011 meeting at TPAC
matt: Resolution 5:
RESOLUTION: Group will work in XML, and not do the mappings to other
formats simultaneously, but keep mappings in mind as we go.
matt: Resolution 6:
RESOLUTION: Matt to start acting as informal editor. WG will bring
together issues weekly for entering into wiki.
matt: Resolution 7:
RESOLUTION: POI descriptions will be more useful when they include
categorisation information. This could include classes of entity
(eg. products, brands), as well as broader topics (eg. Medieval).
Defining particular schemas in detail is beyond the range of the
group, but we anticipate that URIs will be used to identify these
classes and/or categories. There may be scope for publishing a small
high-level taxonomy that integrates existing deployed practice, as
wel
matt: Resolution 8:
RESOLUTION: The ID specified within a POI document will be
addressable via the fragment notation in a URI.
matt: Resolution 9:
RESOLUTION: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI descriptions
will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5, JSON
formats, often embedded within some surrounding format or spec.
matt: Resolution 10:
RESOLUTION: The normative mapping included will be XML.
matt: Resolution 11:
RESOLUTION: There are lots of ways of identifying relevant POI
descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image recognition (of
specific things, of types of thing, of places, people, RFIDs). W3C
POI data should be easily associated via various such techniques,
and not be rigidly tied to any particular association mechanism.
matt: Resolution 12:
RESOLUTION: Time primitive is NOT required
matt: Resolution 13:
RESOLUTION: WG will meet f2f three times per year
matt: Resolution 14:
RESOLUTION: We should have just one normative mapping to use in the
document
matt: Resolution 15:
RESOLUTION: We will use label instead of name.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: cperey to determine which OGC WGs are meeting at OGC
TC in June [recorded in
[70]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to merge landscape draft and browser draft
into one document [recorded in
[71]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: matt to clean up f2f minutes [recorded in
[72]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: matt to work on poll for future F2F options. [recorded
in [73]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: matt to work with OGC on participating in WG [recorded
in [74]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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Received on Friday, 8 April 2011 16:54:03 UTC