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Draft minutes: 4 March 2014 call

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:04:27 -0500
Message-ID: <5316079B.8040804@nokia.com>
To: "public-pointer-events@w3.org" <public-pointer-events@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the March 4 voice conference are available at the 
following and copied below:

<http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html>

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before March 11. In the 
absence of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved.

-Thanks, ArtB

[1]W3C

[1] http://www.w3.org/

- DRAFT -

Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

04 Mar 2014

[2]Agenda

[2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0138.html

See also: [3]IRC log

[3] http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-irc

Attendees

Present
Art_Barstow, Patrick_Lauke, Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi,
Asir_Vedamuthu, Matt_Brubeck, Cathy_Chan, Scott_Gonzαlez

Regrets
Sangwhan_Moon, Olli_Pettay

Chair
Art

Scribe
Art

Contents

* [4]Topics
1. [5]Tweak agenda
2. [6]Add 'manipulation' touch-action property?
3. [7]Bug 21749 : Setting a capture on an offshore
element
4. [8]Bug 21951: [CR] pointermove dispatching when button
state changes
5. [9]Bug 24346: Clarifications on Pointer Events Types
section
6. [10]Bug 24772: releasePointerCapture() should fail if
called from a node that doesn't currently capture the
pointer
7. [11]Bug 24783: non-normative examples for event
sequences to be added to end of 11.2
8. [12]Bug 24784: ACTION-69: Create a proposal re
informative note re pointerevent and touchevent
compatibility
9. [13]Bug 24786: Propose a non-normative note re the
keyboard compat issue
10. [14]Bug 24894: Tweaks to 5.1.2 The Primary Pointer
11. [15]Testing status
12. [16]CR implementation updates
13. [17]AoB
* [18]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________

<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

<scribe> Scribe: Art

<patrick_h_lauke> oh, interesting zakim functionality there

Tweak agenda

AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0138.html.
... since then there has been a lot of bug activity. My
inclination is to allocate some time for all of the bugs as a
way to get "last chance" feedback. However, Bugs 24706 and
24777 were Resolved/Fixed via patches based on agreements made
during our Feb 25 call so I propose we drop those two bug from
the call.
... any objections to dropping Bug 24706 and Bug 24777?
... yesterday Olli said Anne is still OOO so we won't discuss
his comments at this call.
... any other change requests?

[19] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0138.html.

RB: can we move manipulation topic earlier today

<patrick_h_lauke> ok with me

AB: that's finewith me

Add 'manipulation' touch-action property?

AB: this Issue/Q was raised by Rick on Feb 25 and he proposed
some new text
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0125.html. There was some followup by Patrick and
Jacob.

[20] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0125.html.

RB: IE has these additions

… think we need to rethink what we want to spec

… need something about click delay

… I proposed some wording that fits within the scope of the
group (charter)

… this would help with compat

<patrick_h_lauke> +1 that click delay 300ms is a big pain
point, and anything that can help alleviate it in a
standardised way is a good thing

RB: extra impl burden I think is smallish

<patrick_h_lauke> removes special magic that UAs (particularly
on mobile) do today

MB: I agree with Rick

… this is a good thing to add

… there are some impl-specific semantics

<mbrubeck> I like the proposal from Rick's mail that we spec it
as "pan-x pan-y" plus (optional) implementation-specifiied
behaviors.

JR: I replied to this thread; think this is valuable

… describe continuous zooming

<mbrubeck> I'm fine with specifying "continuous zooming" too.

… ok provided it doesn't hold up the spec

… well understood property

RB: you'd like some info from Mozilla re impl?

JR: yes, that would be good and what Matt said is sufficient

… think we have enuf support to add this

MB: need to double-check with Olli but we circulated this to
Moz people

… I don't think we'll get any objections

AV: what do you expect Chrome to support

<rbyers> According to proposed definition of manipulation, it
would be valid (and compatible) to implement it identically to
'auto'

… (directed to Rick)

RB: we are near branch point for Chrome 35

… if we get manipulation into ED I can get it in impl in time
for Chrome 35

… need to get it into the spec

JR: I can add this today

RB: great

RESOLUTION: we will add manipulation to the touch-action
property

<scribe> ACTION: Jacob add manipulation to the touch-action
property [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Add manipulation to the
touch-action property [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11].

Bug 21749 : Setting a capture on an offshore element

AB: This was created 2013-Apr-04
[22]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21749 on
behalf of Francois Remy. We discussed this during our
2014-Jan-07 call
[23]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m02 and Jacob has Action-57 to make a proposal
[24]https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/57.
... Jacob, what's the status of this?

[22] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21749
[23] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item02
[24] https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/57.

JR: I still need to make a proposal; it's in my queue

… will get to it shortly

Bug 21951: [CR] pointermove dispatching when button state changes

AB: Jacob Resolved/Fixed this bug on Feb 28
[25]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951 via
patch [26]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/a9862eea23f5
per the resolution on 2014-Jan-07
[27]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m03.
... We'll talk about Asir's related e-mail about this bug
separately, but first, are there any objections to Jacob's
patch?

[25] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951
[26] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/a9862eea23f5
[27] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item03.

SG: looks good to me

<patrick_h_lauke> looks good to me

RB: good to me

RESOLUTION: Jacob's fix for Bug 21951 is OK.

AB: Asir proposed in
[28]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951#c2
test assertions 5.4 and 5.5 be deleted since they "cannot be
tested using the current test harness and cannot be run
manually"
[29]https://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/TestAssertions#Test_A
ssertions_for_pointermove_events.

[28] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951#c2
[29] 
https://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/TestAssertions#Test_Assertions_for_pointermove_events.

AV: as we review assertions and test coverage, we discovered
these two cannot be tested

RB: not sure why 5.4 can't be tested

… can't change button state w/o changing the pointer

JR: yes, I think you are correct Rick

… a manual test here would be hard

… There is a discussion by the WebDriver group about this
general problem

RB: yeah even if had a test, there is no API to check

AB: does anyone object to strking 5.4 and 5.5?

SG: we could move them to another section

… so if/when WebDriver can handle these cases, we could
consider creating tests

<mbrubeck> "Awaiting harness improvements (or WebDriver)"

… if we strike them, should add a note

AV: we could add them to v2 list

AB: so do both strike and add to v2 list

<patrick_h_lauke> no objection

AB: anyone object to striking these plus adding these to v2
list?

[ None ]

JR: would be good for people in this group to provide input for
WebDriver

… so they can handle our type of requirements

… we have John Jansen

RB: any one from Google?

<jrossi>
[30]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver
-spec.html

[30] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html

JR: this is the Browser Testing WG

CC: what about 5.6 and 5.7?

… does the same reasoning apply to these two assertions?

RB: yes, they are the same

AB: any different thoughts?

SG: no

AB: so we want to strike all 4 assertions?

AV: yes

AB: thanks Cathy

RESOLUTION: strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and add them to
the v2 list

<scribe> ACTION: asir strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and
add them to the v2 list [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Strike test assertions
5.{4,5,6,7} and add them to the v2 list [on Asir Vedamuthu -
due 2014-03-11].

Bug 24346: Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section

AB: Jacob Resolved/Fixed Bug 24346 on Feb 25
[32]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as
discussed on Feb 25
[33]http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m09.
... Since then Patrick submitted some comments via the [["List
of Pointer Events" table default actions]] thread; see
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0132.html

[32] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346
[33] http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item09.
[34] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0132.html

PL: think table still needs a clarification

MB: the table lists the action that will be prevented if call
preventDefault

<jrossi> See Step 3 in:
[35]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEv
ents.html#mapping-for-devices-that-support-hover

[35] 
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#mapping-for-devices-that-support-hover

… if call it on pointerdown all compat mouse events will be
prevented

… there are some mouse events that aren't prevent-able

PL: perhaps the header of table

MB: could add a link to the text and section for canceling

JR: I can change the table headings

… think I just used headings from other DOM specs

… could add a defn and have the header link to that

PL: need to what happens when event is canceled

JR: [ reads part of the spec … ]

… could add a defn for defaultAction

<jrossi> "cancelled eventAn event whose default action was
prevented by means of preventDefault(), returning false in an
event handler, or other means as defined by
[DOM-LEVEL-3-EVENTS] and [HTML5]."

MB: there's a diff between default action and defaultAction

<patrick_h_lauke> so currently, table column "Default Action".
Text in the column is "Varies: when the pointer is primary, all
default actions of the mousedown event plus firing
of compatibility mouse events". How about just adding a bit of
text

AB: Patrick can you take this info and create a proposal?

PL: [ makes a proposal … ]

… I can do some wordsmithing

<scribe> ACTION: Patrick make a proposal for Bug 24346 (using
discussion from 2014-Mar-04 call) [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Make a proposal for bug 24346
(using discussion from 2014-mar-04 call) [on Patrick Lauke -
due 2014-03-11].

<patrick_h_lauke> thx

Bug 24772: releasePointerCapture() should fail if called from a node
that doesn't currently capture the pointer

AB: Jacob proposed text in the bug via comment #1
[37]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24772#c1 as
actioned on Feb 25
[38]http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m05.
... any objections to Jacob's proposal?
... looked ok to me

[37] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24772#c1
[38] http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item05.

RB: sounds good

SG: so noop, no error?

JR: yes

RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's proposal for Bug 24772

<scribe> ACTION: Jacob submit changeset for his proposed text
for Bug 24772 [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Submit changeset for his
proposed text for bug 24772 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11].

Bug 24783: non-normative examples for event sequences to be added to
end of 11.2

AB: after the draft agenda was posted, Jacob Resolved/Fixed
[40]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24783 via
patch [41]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/0fc30a2b5dfe
and then Patrick had some followup.
... We'll discuss Patrick's editorial followup in a minute but
first, any objections to Jacob's patch?

[40] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24783
[41] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/0fc30a2b5dfe

JR: this is verbatim from what Patrick proposed

PL: yes; the two minor comments are editorial nits

<patrick_h_lauke>
[42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0148.html

[42] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0148.html

JR: oh, yes, I'll make those two changes

AB: any objections to the patch + the 2 editorial nits?

RB: LGTM

PL: +1

<patrick_h_lauke> oops

RB: why are pointerenter and pointerleave not in the list?

JR: that's an oversight

AB: any objections to adding pointerenter and pointerleave?

[ None ]

<patrick_h_lauke> hah mbrubeck

<patrick_h_lauke> save that for the touch events CG

RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's patch for Bug 24783 + add
pointerenter and pointerleave + add PL's two editorial nits

<scribe> ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24783 including
discussion from 2014-Mar-04 [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Update the spec for bug 24783
including discussion from 2014-mar-04 [on Jacob Rossi - due
2014-03-11].

Bug 24784: ACTION-69: Create a proposal re informative note re
pointerevent and touchevent compatibility

<patrick_h_lauke> not unlike my 100s of tests, rick
[44]http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/

[44] http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/

AB: this bug had some additional activity yesterday between
Patrick and Jacob
[45]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784.
... I think what we want here is a relatively terse statement.
Jacob's proposal
[46]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784#c1
meets that but I'd say Patrick's counter-proposal
[47]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784#c3
meets the ICanLiveWithItTest.

[45] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784.
[46] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784#c1
[47] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24784#c3

JR: yes

AB: any objections to adding PL's proposed text for 24784?

RB: fine with me

<patrick_h_lauke> i'll follow up at later point to add my
thoughts to the touch events CG wiki

RESOLUTION: group agrees with PL's proposed text for bug 24784

<scribe> ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24784 per PL's
proposal [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Update the spec for bug 24784
per pl's proposal [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-03-11].

Bug 24786: Propose a non-normative note re the keyboard compat issue

AB: Patrick has done quite a bit of research and added several
comments to this bug and so far no one else has added any
comments
[49]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786.
... we discussed this on Feb 25 and the group was actioned to
add their feedback to the bug
[50]http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m11.
... seems like we need a clear proposal we can review and
comment #5 might have such a proposal
[51]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786#c5.

[49] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786.
[50] http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item11.
[51] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786#c5.

<patrick_h_lauke> mind that the first part of
[52]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786#c5 is
mainly for interest

[52] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24786#c5

RB: I don't have an objection if UAs implement something like
this

… but need to separate that from designing things into the
platform

… want the compatibility hacks at higher lever e.g. frameworks

<patrick_h_lauke> ...or user agent behavior

… don't want "surprising" behavior included in the platform

<patrick_h_lauke> i actually agree with rick here

… PL's proposal is good but need to separate that from platform
requirements

PL: agree with you Rick

… think the end of comment #5 is the important part we want to
capture

… some more text is needed

[ Scribe didn't capture comments from Rick … ]

PL: should I use this feedback to create a new proposal?

AB: sounds good

<scribe> ACTION: Patrick make a specific proposal for Bug 24786
per discussion on 2014-Mar-04 [recorded in
[53]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Make a specific proposal for bug
24786 per discussion on 2014-mar-04 [on Patrick Lauke - due
2014-03-11].

<rbyers> my main point was to emphasize using high-level APIs
(focus, blur, click, etc.) wherever possible. When you must use
low-level input events, be sure to support ALL types of input
devices, including keyboards.

PL: might want to block for feedback from Sangwhan

… since one of his actions is related

<patrick_h_lauke>
[54]https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/63

[54] https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/63

… Action-63

<patrick_h_lauke>
[55]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0140.html

[55] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0140.html

PL: the Q is whether Action-63 is covered by my proposal

RB: yes, I think so

AB: how about after you make your proposal Patrick, we make
sure Sangwhan is given a headsup and then address action-63
accordingly?

PL: sounds good

Bug 24894: Tweaks to 5.1.2 The Primary Pointer

AB: after the draft agenda was posted, Jacob Resolved/Fixed
[56]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24894 via
Jacob's patch
[57]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/b168701f0522.

[56] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24894
[57] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/b168701f0522.

<patrick_h_lauke> LGTM

AB: this was discussed on Feb 25 as "Slight softening of
language in the note for 5.1.2"
[58]http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m08.
... any objections to this patch?

[58] http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item08.

PL: LGTM

RB: LGTM

AB: +1

<patrick_h_lauke> :)

RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's patch for Bug 24894.

<patrick_h_lauke> right, shooting off. thanks everybody

Testing status

AB: any new testing news (beyond Feb 25
[59]http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m12)?

[59] http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item12)?

CR implementation updates

AB: any new implementation news (beyond Feb 25
[60]http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m13)?

[60] http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-pointerevents-minutes.html#item13)?

<mbrubeck> It is now possible to enable touch-action and
pointer events in nightly builds of Firefox for Windows 8
Metro.

AB: awesome!

<asir> Very cool!!

MB: portions of that also work on some other platforms

<mbrubeck> Pointer Events (but not touch-action) can also be
enabled in Firefox for desktop, and (I think) Firefox OS.

<rbyers> Woot!

RB: we are continuing to land touch-action patches

… still on track for Chrome 35

AoB

AB: Any other Business for today?
... I might have a conflict with this time on March 11 so a
call that day is currently not likely
... down to 4 bugs + Annes comments
... anything else?
... meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: asir strike test assertions 5.{4,5,6,7} and add
them to the v2 list [recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob add manipulation to the touch-action
property [recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion01]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob submit changeset for his proposed text for
Bug 24772 [recorded in
[63]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion04]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24783 including
discussion from 2014-Mar-04 [recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion05]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob update the spec for bug 24784 per PL's
proposal [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion06]
[NEW] ACTION: Patrick make a proposal for Bug 24346 (using
discussion from 2014-Mar-04 call) [recorded in
[66]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion03]
[NEW] ACTION: Patrick make a specific proposal for Bug 24786
per discussion on 2014-Mar-04 [recorded in
[67]http://www.w3.org/2014/03/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion07]

[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 4 March 2014 17:05:12 UTC

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